Imperials Vs. Stormcloaks (RE-UPLOADED)

[Guest]

Disclaimer: This is a re-upload of a thread I made concerning the Civil War in Skyrim. Quite a few people seemed to misunderstand what it was about, so I hope to make it more clear here. However, there was some fair criticism that I took note of. Therefore, I added a few more options to choose from. Now, onto business. What's your choice?

 

Rules:

 

1. You are answering the question as though you, the individual reading this, are living in Skyrim, and you are picking a side. This is not about what decision one of your PCs would make. For example, it doesn't matter if you have a Nord who would join the Stormcloaks and an Imperial who would join the Empire. This is about what you would do.

 

 

2. Feel free to discuss the lore, but please. This is meant to be fun, so let's keep it civil, folks.

 

3. Don't overcomplicate it. The question itself is simple. Stormcloaks, Empire, neither, destroy both, or save both.

 

Edited May 24, 2024 by CrowOfItachi

[Miauzi]

Thanks for restarting and EXPANDING the topic... my option is definitely the 4th position

(I would like to expand it to include the dragons as a third allied force... especially after the victory over Miraak, as a dragon blood you have the power to win these creatures over... I know - that's already out topic)

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

I would like to expand it to include the dragons as a third allied force... especially after the victory over Miraak, as a dragon blood you have the power to win these creatures over...

I can just imagine the Dragonborn approaching the dragons after killing Miraak like this.

 

[Just Checking]

Ok apparently I didn't read all the rules before dropping a ridiculous wall of text so I'll just make a little change.

 

Imperials because I don't think Ulfric is a good leader beyond getting a lot of people to follow him.  What did he think was going to happen after the war?  The Dominion would just shrug and write Skyrim off as a lost cause?  Finding a way to get them both to work together would be cool but Ulfric did every possible thing wrong from murdering a king sympathetic to his cause to getting caught with his pants down in the mountains by like ten imperial soldiers.

Edited May 29, 2024 by Just Checking
Did not read all the rules of the thread, changing it because it was just plain excessive.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Just Checking said:

Oh boy do I have thoughts on this topic.  I probably don't have anything super unique to add to the conversation, but I'll answer the question in a couple ways.

 

 

Point 1: In the Civil War, Imperials

  Reveal hidden contents

First, if I was just another Joe Shmoe in TES, I'd probably side Empire, mostly because I don't think Ulfric and Skyrim alone stand a chance against the Dominion, and Ulfric himself doesn't seem like he's inclined to build an alliance when Great War 2 rolls around.  He spends so much time talking about how much better off Skyrim is alone that I can't see a Stormcloak Skyrim having the manpower or connections to weather the Dominion when they come knocking.  The dragonborn showing up and winning the entire war for him was the edge he needed over Tullius, who had won the war at the beginning of the game, and was only thwarted by the bullshittery of a Deus Ex Machina that had no connection at all to either side of the war.  I flat out think Ulfric's a bad leader who thinks way more about the glory of their fight than he does the actual wellbeing of his people.  Empire is a better choice to me between the two because if Skyrim and Cyrodiil present a united front, they at least have a better chance than if both are having to fight independently.  At this stage of the world's history I'm pretty sure the Empire consists officially of Cyrodiil and Skyrim and TECHNICALLY High Rock, but Skyrim would be the only land connection those three regions share, over a horrible mountain range, and their cohesion the only real chance at standing up to the Dominion once they've replenished their numbers.  And that's another point, TES elves have a much longer, slower life cycle than humans.  Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock would replenish their forces way faster than most of the Dominion aside from the Khajiit who are only barely better than slave soldiers right now, from what I understand.  Keeping the Empire together and waiting out some crappy times is, in my mind, the best way they can avoid a true Aldmeri ruled Tamriel.

 

Now the problem with my personal view is that I'm pretty biased because I'm not a very spiritual person, the fight for freedom, especially the right to worship, seems often to be a very big motivator for Stormcloak supporters, so when I play the game and I hear that is one of their primary motivators, the loss of their culture and religion, I just write it off and say tough it out until you can win your freedom back.  The disadvantages there are it only takes like two generations for a culture to be irrevocably altered, no one wants their children to live through hardship and if your faith is especially important to you then some asshole telling you to get over it for a few decades is a pretty poor argument.  That said, it's pretty hard to teach your kids about Talos and their Nord heritage if your king broke your only alliance and got half your men killed thirty years ago and your enemy, who's been watching your civil war and eating popcorn, swooped in like two years after it ended, burned your cities to the ground and put chains on anyone with round ears.

[spoiler\]

 

 

Point 2: If I can get in before the civil war, broker alliance

  Reveal hidden contents

Second, if I was in TES with all the knowledge that I currently have, I would try to broker an alliance between the factions against the Dominion, their common enemy, and the common enemy of most of the continent.  The Empire has fractured because of the Oblivion crisis and the absolute shitshow that was the wars for succession after Martin died.  You know what the Empire needs to reunify?  A new Nord hero with incredible power and the ability to command the loyalty of his men, maybe one backed by a successful and respected general and veteran of the Great War.  Characters in Solitude indicate Torygg would have followed Ulfric into hell if he'd asked, the poor bastard respected the hell out of him.  If I could have been in a position to offer any advice to Ulfric, it would be to just come to Torygg as a fellow Nord and ruler and ask him to support him in building an army against the Dominion.  The rallying cry that the Empire is too weak for the Nords is horseshit, it's Tiber Septim's empire, by their reckoning a Nord's empire.  It's not too weak for them, the races of Men have grown too weak for it.  With Torygg's diplomatic ties in Cyrodiil and High Rock, they could have renewed their stand against the Dominion and been ready way before the Dominion was to start fighting again.  Tullius showed at the beginning of the game that he's a better military leader than Ulfric, characters in the game flat out state the war was basically won and Alduin preventing Ulfric's execution started it all back up.  If those two could have been fighting on the same side with the support of their nations they would have had a real chance, but I think Ulfric screwed any chance of that with his regicide.  If he'd just come to his king and offered to be his general and encouraged a joint campaign with Cyrodiil, White Gold Concordat be damned, they'd probably win and the treaty would have been meaningless.  Step one would be liberation of Hammerfell, which should be perfectly achievable by a unified force since the Empire has land access to every single Hammerfell border and Redguards are well known to be fierce fighters and some of the best sailors on the continent.  The Dominion had the upper hand in the Great War because they hit so fast and exploited the Empire not being ready.  If it was the other way around the elves would crumble, and how much persuading do you think it would really take to get the Dunmer to agree to kick some Altmer asses?  They're not exactly on the best terms and haven't been since St Veloth lead the Chimer east, if the Dominion were to conquer the Empire, it would only be a matter of time before the Great Houses were purged and Dominion governance installed in Morrowind, even if they are elves.

 

Problems with this plan, Ulfric's answer to the Empire failing to represent Nordic interests was to stir the pot as hard as possible and murder his king.  Everything he did was divisive, and it's entirely possible he was acting under duress from the Thalmor, who we know have a lot of dirt on him and consider him a strategic interest.  Tullius obviously thinks the Thalmor are scum, but he doesn't have much choice while his nation is threatened.  The Concordat obliges Cyrodiil to uphold certain promises or face repercussion, and Cyrodiil obviously doesn't think, at this point in the game, it can survive the war starting again on someone else's terms.  The treasuries are probably pretty empty, the armies are still recovering and strategic assets need to be reaffirmed.  Obviously the Dominion isn't ready to rush in and finish their conquest yet either, but neither side is wholly confident they can win if they have to commit to a full war.  I think, by this point in the timeline, however, the Empire is almost ready, and the Dominion still very much is not.  Tensions are encouraged across human lands by Thalmor agents, Stormcloaks vs Imperial loyalists in Skyrim, Dominion held regions vs free regions in Hammerfell, whatever the hell wild intrigue is always happening in the courts of High Rock, who let's remember is isolated from the Empire by an almost untraversable mountain range it shares with Skyrim and the independent and currently chaotic Hammerfell to the south... thinks are bleak for the races of Men on Tamriel right now, and unless a unified front can be presented quickly and avoiding the interference of Thalmor agents, an alliance can't really happen.  Still, I think raising an army under the banners of Ulfric couple with the Empires current best general would be the best hope for the human provinces to overthrow the Dominion.

[spoiler\]

 

 

Point 3: If Stormcloak victory, Ebonheart Pact?

  Reveal hidden contents

Last, kind of joke solution, if I were to see Ulfric win the civil war and was in some position to offer advice, I'd suggest a new Ebonheart Pact.  The enemies of Skyrim will inevitably come for Morrowind and Black Marsh when the humans are finally dealt with.  Morrowind would not be willing to enter the Dominion unless they were given even more sovereignty and autonomy than they had under the Empire, and they don't really have anything to negotiate with this time.  They were allowed their greater independence when Tiber Septim formed the Empire partially because they offered Numidium in exchange.  Morrowind in it's weakened position can't secure that kind of deal and definitely can't stand on its own.  Black Marsh... the Dominion already see Men as lesser, there's no way they would treat the Argonians even remotely better.  Assuming ESO is canon,  there's historic precedent for these groups to unite against a common enemy, especially if that enemy is a new Aldmeri Dominion.  I think a joint force of Nord soldiers, many of their officers being veterans from the Great War, bolstered by the warriors of House Redoran, currently the strongest of the Great Houses, and An-Xileel warriors, who's whole tactic in their Morrowind invasion was to just rush areas and wipe out whatever they could as fast as they could, would present a terrifying front line.  Bolstered by Argonian mystics and getting the remaining Telvanni to come out of hiding, if those groups can be convinced to work together they probably have the greatest collective knowledge of obscure magics on the continent.  Finally, both Dunmer and Argonians have a history steeped in assassination being a perfectly accepted, trained profession, anyone of import the Dominion sends against a new Pact would be a dead man walking.

 

But of course there are drawbacks to this, and those drawbacks are good luck getting these guys to sit at a table together and not reach for their weapons the moment someone opens their mouth.  Despite a surprising overlap in their cultures with things like ancestor veneration, hero deification, warrior honor and a seemingly genetic drive to perfect mystical arts that are an important part of their racial identity, all these things are thwarted by other things they all have in common: xenophobia and a sense of supremacy.  Each group distrusts the others, hold long grudges and think they're god's favourite little guy, and despite the odd occasion that they do work together, they have some very fresh wounds festering at this point in the timeline that I think would be the tipping point to prevent them working together except as an absolute last, doomed resort.  Historical resentment is only compounded here because of more recent events like the Dunmer refugee exodus into Skyrim and the An-Xileel invasion into Morrowind.  Most Argonians probably aren't super eager still to ally with the guys that enslaved them for the better part of a thousand years.

[spoiler\]

I genuinely can't tell what you typed all that for, but I will say this. If you typed all that to discuss the lore, then I congratulate you. However, if you typed all that to discuss what you would do, I said don't overcomplicate it (Rule 3). If it was for both, then well... I say congrats, but I also said don't overcomplicate it. Either way, I appreciate you putting that novel in a spoiler, because holy shit, dude. I've never seen a comment that long ever. Not related to anything. Just saying.

Edited May 25, 2024 by CrowOfItachi

[Raven 54]

9 hours ago, CrowOfItachi said:

Don't overcomplicate it.

Geez, now I have to actually use my brain & it's far too early for that crap. 

I am still considering how to vote after reading the entire thread, Do you all know how exhausting it is to try to bring disparate peoples together, unified for a task such as this? (overthrow)

Much easier to fly in on my Dragon and spaghettify them all, besides there would be far less muttering, bitching and infighting to deal with.

Guess I have to choose Unify.

 

P.S. this poll is much more difficult than the other, not a complaint, the other took two seconds to make up my mind, while this took me a bit.  

[Miauzi]

Vor 8 Stunden sagte CrowOfItachi:

Ich kann mir gut vorstellen, dass das Drachenblut sich den Drachen nähert, nachdem es Miraak auf diese Weise getötet hat.

 

 

Well - thanks to a mod, there is also the possibility - to convince Miraak to break with the Daedra prince and take your side using the "scream of submission"... i.e. he survives.

For me this would open up a completely new path -> dragon riders

Spoiler

The Blades have failed as an "intelligence service" against the Talmor - their pitiful remnants want to return to their roots as dragon hunters.

This is of course complete nonsense - why not make the dragons themselves the strongest weapon against the Tamlor.

My scenario:

1) Miraak (who survives here) takes over the Temple of Heaven in Skyrim and transforms the "Dragon Hunters" into Dragon Riders... the leader of the Greybeards is "convinced" to make himself available with his winged followers.

2) The player himself takes over the leadership of the Thieves' Guild and the Dark Brotherhood and transforms them into an effective secret service... "Thieves" for spying - Assassins for eliminating the Nords who work for the Talmor

3) General Tulius and Jarl Ulfric continue to "play" civil war... but there is no major fighting. So you have two units that are constantly ready for battle... which suddenly act together "as if by magic" during the expected invasion of the high elves... as a surprise, a few dragons arrive with riders on their backs (most importantly, they sink the invasion fleet in front of it coast - but only AFTER the elf warriors have landed!)

4) The player remains in the background afterwards... so he definitely does NOT become the new Emperor or Great King

 

 

[pinky6225]

How am i starting in skyrim?

 

Pre-alternative start days i always sided with the stormcloaks as the imperials had just tried to cut off my head so i imagine faced with vanilla start i personnally would also come to the same decision as i'm kinda fond of my head being attached

[Alessia Wellington]

13 minutes ago, pinky6225 said:

i'm kinda fond of my head being attached

 

Overrated.

 

Spoiler

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, pinky6225 said:

How am i starting in skyrim?

That's for you to decide. As Bob Ross once said,

 

[chooseChaos]

41 minutes ago, CrowOfItachi said:

That's for you to decide. As Bob Ross once said,

 

So beeing an artist who makes paintings about the course of the war is also an option? 😁😇

Seriously, if I'm not a dragonborn, it would be option A = artist and never leave town!

 

Or pack my things and get as far away as quickly as possible, which wouldn't be safe either ...

Because:

Spoiler

it's dangerous outside, Animals, Bandits, Civil War, Dragons ... Undead, Vampires ... 🥺🙀

 

But me being dragonborn

Spoiler

= total Chaos & Destruction 🤡😈👻= I vote as Dragonbornchaosclown

 

[Alessia Wellington]

15 minutes ago, chooseChaos said:

Seriously, if I'm not a dragonborn, it would be option A = artist and never leave town!

 

Don't you wanna be a battlefield painter? Just imagine all the facial expressions of fear, anger, pain and death you could incorporate into your paintings.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, chooseChaos said:

So beeing an artist who makes paintings about the course of the war is also an option? 😁😇

Seriously, if I'm not a dragonborn, it would be option A = artist and never leave town!

 

Or pack my things and get as far away as quickly as possible, which wouldn't be safe either ...

Because:

  Hide contents

it's dangerous outside, Animals, Bandits, Civil War, Dragons ... Undead, Vampires ... 🥺🙀

 

But me being dragonborn

  Hide contents

= total Chaos & Destruction 🤡😈👻= I vote as Dragonbornchaosclown

 

So, your option would be neither is what your saying?

[chooseChaos]

1 minute ago, CrowOfItachi said:

So, your option would be neither is what your saying?

I would fight and destroy both! They're just the Thalmor's puppets! Therefore, they're weak and need to be killed!  😈

 

8 minutes ago, Alessia Wellington said:

 

Don't you wanna be a battlefield painter? Just imagine all the facial expressions of fear, anger, pain and death you could incorporate into your paintings.

I don't have to = I have enough imagination and didn't you listen?

it's dangerous outside, Animals, Bandits, Civil War, Dragons ... Undead, Vampires ...

Oh, wait! You're just trying to lure me outside! 😮🤪

[Alessia Wellington]

1 minute ago, chooseChaos said:

You're just trying to lure me outside!

 

*innocent whistling*

[Raven 54]

5 hours ago, Miauzi said:

General Tulius and Jarl Ulfric

How to convince these two to give up the lust for power (Ulfric) and the blind servitude (Tullius) is the most difficult thing in my mind.

 

26 minutes ago, Alessia Wellington said:

Don't you wanna be a battlefield painter? Just imagine all the facial expressions of fear, anger, pain and death you could incorporate into your paintings.

Only you would think of such a thing, Kinda twisted, kinda sexy.       

 

1 hour ago, CrowOfItachi said:

Bob Ross

 But where is the "Happy little tree" ?     Loved Mr. Ross!

 

46 minutes ago, chooseChaos said:

Dragonbornchaosclown

Should be your name next playthrough, get that on a note, spelled correctly, hyphenated, Italicized, in bold print even!  

[Guest]

10 hours ago, chooseChaos said:

I would fight and destroy both! They're just the Thalmor's puppets! Therefore, they're weak and need to be killed!  😈

Fair enough.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, chooseChaos said:

I would fight and destroy both! They're just the Thalmor's puppets! Therefore, they're weak and need to be killed!  😈

 

I don't have to = I have enough imagination and didn't you listen?

it's dangerous outside, Animals, Bandits, Civil War, Dragons ... Undead, Vampires ...

Oh, wait! You're just trying to lure me outside! 😮🤪

Took you that long to notice?

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Raven 54 said:

Only you would think of such a thing, Kinda twisted, kinda sexy.       

You haven’t met my friend, Ashley, have you?

[Raven 54]

7 hours ago, CrowOfItachi said:

You haven’t met my friend, Ashley, have you?

Can't say I've had the pleasure...

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Raven 54 said:

Can't say I've had the pleasure...

Yeah, she's crazy like that.

[Just Checking]

On 5/25/2024 at 4:11 PM, CrowOfItachi said:

I genuinely can't tell what you typed all that for, but I will say this. If you typed all that to discuss the lore, then I congratulate you. However, if you typed all that to discuss what you would do, I said don't overcomplicate it (Rule 3). If it was for both, then well... I say congrats, but I also said don't overcomplicate it. Either way, I appreciate you putting that novel in a spoiler, because holy shit, dude. I've never seen a comment that long ever. Not related to anything. Just saying.

I seem to have failed to read the rules.

[Gameplayer]

Default game,

 

Stormcloaks is the only reasonable option given the circumstances and nothing that has been said would change my mind in fact you just solidify my position.

It does not matter that the leader of the Stormcloaks is a racist that personally hurt your feelings, we are talking about an entire people and a religion on top of that too boot, may as well go force some real life religion to change gods, you know you will never manage to make that happen even with near anihilation on the menu and being enforced.

 

So get real, its not ever been a topic worthy of much consideration.

 

And "as" has been said above,

 

Facts,

1) Player Character in default game is a native of Skyrim

2) Player Character is coming home when they are caught at the border

3) Illegal Border crossing is not punishable by death by Imperial Standard Codes

4) Imperial Commander Telcius decides the fuck I care about those codes chop PC's head off with the rest of the rabble.

 

It does not matter what race you picked, you are native to Skyrim, thus you hold their traditions and idealogy as your own.

 

That is default game.

 

It has amazed me that anyone could ever chose to join the Imperials.

Player character starts with good reason to hold a grudge from jump street at start of the game.

There is no justifying anything from there.

Edited May 30, 2024 by Gameplayer

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Gameplayer said:

Default game,

 

Stormcloaks is the only reasonable option given the circumstances and nothing that has been said would change my mind in fact you just solidify my position.

It does not matter that the leader of the Stormcloaks is a racist that personally hurt your feelings, we are talking about an entire people and a religion on top of that too boot, may as well go force some real life religion to change gods, you know you will never manage to make that happen even with near anihilation on the menu and being enforced.

 

So get real, its not ever been a topic worthy of much consideration.

 

And "as" has been said above,

 

Facts,

1) Player Character in default game is a native of Skyrim

2) Player Character is coming home when they are caught at the border

3) Illegal Border crossing is not punishable by death by Imperial Standard Codes

4) Imperial Commander Telcius decides the fuck I care about those codes chop PC's head off with the rest of the rabble.

 

It does not matter what race you picked, you are native to Skyrim, thus you hold their traditions and idealogy as your own.

 

That is default game.

 

It has amazed me that anyone could ever chose to join the Imperials.

Player character starts with good reason to hold a grudge from jump street at start of the game.

There is no justifying anything from there.

First, I want to remind you that this is about what one would do in this situation. What you said is merely your opinion that you're trying to sell as truth, and that's not OK. Second, it doesn't matter what the default game is. The setting is if you are someone living in Skyrim when the war broke out (whether you see yourself as a farmer, city guard, baker, etc.), what would you do? Everything you said completely ignores that. Now, do you have a point with what you said about the PC nearly being unjustly executed in the vanilla game? In my opinion, yes. However, how people choose to interpret that is entirely up to them. Finally, you're kind of pushing the boundaries of LL's rules regarding talking about religion.

 

So, let's dial it back a bit.

[Miauzi]

Vor 5 Minuten sagte CrowOfItachi:

Zunächst möchte ich Sie daran erinnern, dass es hier darum geht, was man in dieser Situation tun würde. Was Sie gesagt haben, ist lediglich Ihre Meinung, die Sie als Wahrheit verkaufen wollen, und das ist nicht in Ordnung. Zweitens spielt es keine Rolle, welches Standardspiel es ist. Die Einstellung lautet: Was würden Sie tun, wenn Sie zum Zeitpunkt des Kriegsausbruchs in Skyrim lebten (ganz gleich, ob Sie sich als Bauer, Stadtwächter, Bäcker usw. sehen)? Alles, was Sie gesagt haben, ignoriert dies völlig. Haben Sie recht, was Sie gesagt haben, dass der PC im Vanilla-Spiel fast ungerechtfertigt hingerichtet wurde? Meiner Meinung nach ja. Wie die Leute das interpretieren, liegt jedoch ganz bei ihnen. Schließlich verschieben Sie gewissermaßen die Grenzen der LL-Regeln, wenn es darum geht, über Religion zu sprechen.

 

Also schalten wir es etwas zurück.

 

I can only agree with you here - a personal opinion is being sold as the truth ... I am currently experiencing this in the massively heated political atmosphere in my country (Germany)

 

And the first point mentioned is pure speculation

Vor 1 Stunde sagte Gameplayer:

1) Der Spielercharakter im Standardspiel stammt aus Skyrim

 

No - not even the reference to crossing the border reveals this - it is not mentioned anywhere whether you want to leave Skyrim or whether you were arrested when you "entered".

 

As the player's race is completely open - why can you even choose it - the whole chain collapses - pure bogus argumentation.

But as the user already said - everything you could say in response is completely irrelevant... because he is obviously playing a different Skyrim to the rest of us.

 

Spoiler

By the way - your reference to the arrest and execution... in real wartime, as an uninvolved civilian, you can quickly get "run over" - that is unfortunately the sad reality (there were several hundred deaths on the "inner German" border between 1949 and 1989 - on BOTH sides, by the way... the "iron fence" was red in many places with the blood of people - refugees and guards)
In this respect, this situation in vanilla Skyrim is unfortunately very close to the reality on our planet!