When do you typically play the Civil War quest?

[branmakmuffin]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:57 PM, belegost said:

Last time I played civil war, Windhelm disappeared off the face of Tamriel, leaving a hole in the ground in the shape of a perfect equilateral quadrangle and a size equal to the number of chunks that city used to occupy in the overworld space.

 

Also, Tulius is a bigger racist than Ulfric ever was, yet nobody calls him out on that.

I'm going to say Ulfric is a racist, Tulius is an elitist.

[belegost]

36 minutes ago, branmakmuffin said:

I'm going to say Ulfric is a racist, Tulius is an elitist.

Ulfric, despite being jarl of one of the poorest holds, allows dark elves to stay in his main city, own propery and land within the hold and cultivate their culture. Dunmer have businesses, conduct trade, have their own cultural centre and jobs. What is more, he has no issue welcoming Dragonborn to join his cause regardless of their race, despite his reservations. And while he has very strong views on religion, he never comments on customs or beliefs of others.

 

Tulius on the other hand openly mocks and derides nord customs in front of a nord subordinate and dismisses any complaints off-hand. I've also not seen any dark elf refugees in the richest city in Skyrim which could easily accomodate them and find them jobs, nor have I seen any dark elves on any commanding positions in his army. The fact that he can also allow Dragonborn of any race to join the legion is irrelevant in this case, because he's under imperial authority which binds him to take anyone who's a subject.

Ulfric is not under such obligation yet he still does it.

Edited February 23 by belegost

[branmakmuffin]

12 minutes ago, belegost said:

Ulfric, despite being jarl of one of the poorest holds, allows dark elves to stay in his main city, own propery and land within the hold and cultivate their culture. Dunmer have businesses, conduct trade, have their own cultural centre and jobs. What is more, he has no issue welcoming Dragonborn to join his cause regardless of their race, despite his reservations. And while he has very strong views on religion, he never comments on customs or beliefs of others.

 

Tulius on the other hand openly mocks and derides nord customs in front of a nord subordinate and dismisses any complaints off-hand. I've also not seen any dark elf refugees in the richest city in Skyrim which could easily accomodate them and find them jobs, nor have I seen any dark elves on any commanding positions in his army.

A person can be racist and still allow members of races he dislikes to conduct business. Dunmer are relegated to, essentially, a wall-less ghetto. And I believe it's canonical ( I could be wrong) that Argonians are not even allowed into Windhelm. Offering up Ulfric liking a non-human Dragonborn as an example of his lack of intolerance is pure meta-gaming. Ulffric has to be OK with any Dragonborn or the game would lock a non-human Dragonborn out of the Stormcloak side of the war. It could have been done that way in theory, but never in practice.

 

The traits you note for Tulius are exactly those I would ascribe to an elitist, and not a racist. Obviously this is all extremely subjective. As characters in a story, I find Ulric way more distasteful than Tulius (thus, in all my playthroughs, I have taken the Stormcloak side only once, just to see how it differed).

Edited February 23 by branmakmuffin

[belegost]

1 hour ago, branmakmuffin said:

I find Ulric way more distasteful than Tulius

That is due to fact that he's self-centered asshole on a personal level. It says nothing about whether he's a racist or not. He is no more racistv than the rest of nords in Skyrim and I'd argue even less so because of what I stated previously. You can dislike him, fine but you can't call him a racist without calling everyone in Skyrim, including orcs, and dunmer themselves, a racist. Because in that case everyone has some pet peeve with everyone else if you dig deep enough.

 

Argonians and khajiit are universally disliked across all of Skyrim, this is moot point. Even in Riften, where they are important part of the economy they are relegated to second class citizens.

 

Regarding so-called ghetto, dunmer were probably given what was available. I did not expect any of the already established clans to give up their houses to a bunch of newcomers who have not proven themselves yet. There is nothing stopping dark elves from developing this part of Windhelm into bustling, colourful, sort of Dunmer-Town if they really wanted. They have businesses and money to support it. It would create more jobs for everyone, even for that piece of shit drunk that molests a woman as you enter the city. He might even start appreciating them.

 

Its not Ulfric's job to cater and babysit newcomers. He gave the means and the opportunity, its up to them what happens next, and he's under no obligation to pour money into it when he has other things to finance and worry about.

 

I have the distinctive feeling that "Ulfric is racist!" narrative comes from people experiencing that scene as first thing when they enter the city and then going to Candlehearth Hall and talking to that bitch that ownes it. Both of them are racist, but that says nothing about Ulfric abd people are already set negatively despite not having met him yet. Then it turns out he's an asshole on a personal level and somehow it all glues together into a false impression that stuck.

Edited February 23 by belegost

[branmakmuffin]

36 minutes ago, belegost said:

That is due to fact that he's self-centered asshole on a personal level. It says nothing about whether he's a racist or not

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that. I think he's a racist, you don't.

Edited February 23 by branmakmuffin

[BDNelson]

I use the Civil War Neutrality mod, I don't get involved in that. Let 'em fight it out on their own and clean up after.

[branmakmuffin]

And how much better does Appeal to Authority get than the author of the mod Civil War Neutrality calling Stormcloaks racist gits? If it's good enough for some random mod maker I never heard of, it's good enough for me. I rest my case.

[belegost]

1 hour ago, branmakmuffin said:

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that. I think he's a racist, you don't.

I did not say that. Please do not misquote me.

 

I said, in my original statement: Tuluis is a racist, yet nobody calls him on that.

 

And I said in a statement you quoted: a conduct of other people you meet in Windhelm prior to meeting Ulfric, says nothing about whether Ulfric is racist or not. Because that's objectively true. Only actions and words of Ulfric are a testamet to Ulfric, not words or actions of a drunk hobo from the street or an underfucked, frustrated hag who happens to own an inn.

 

In summary: both are racists, yet only Ulfric get to be called on it for some reason. and this is what I specifically called out. You calling Tuluis "elitist" is just semantics. Same thing, different name, no point in reinventing the wheel.

 

In order to avoid further confusion I will lay my points bare:

• Ulfric's actions, if taken as a whole, do not paint him as that much of Hitler as a lot of people seem to think (and I am aware I am bowing to Godwin's law here and I did it on purpose)
• Tuluis is not some sort of tolerant all-inclusive champion of equality as people seem to think.

 

I have provided examples and facts to back my statement and I will stand by what I said.

Edited February 23 by belegost

[Psalam]

52 minutes ago, branmakmuffin said:

And how much better does Appeal to Authority get than the author of the mod Civil War Neutrality calling Stormcloaks racist gits? If it's good enough for some random mod maker I never heard of, it's good enough for me. I rest my case.

 

17 minutes ago, belegost said:

I did not say that. Please do not misquote me.

 

I said, in my original statement: Tuluis is a racist, yet nobody calls him on that.

 

And I said in a statement you quoted: a conduct of other people you meet in Windhelm prior to meeting Ulfric, says nothing about whether Ulfric is racist or not. Because that's objectively true. Only actions and words of Ulfric are a testamet to Ulfric, not words or actions of a drunk hobo from the street or an underfucked, frustrated hag who happens to own an inn.

 

In summary: both are racists, yet only Ulfric get to be called on it for some reason. and this is what I specifically called out. You calling Tuluis "elitist" is just semantics. Same thing, different name, no point in reinventing the wheel.

 

In order to avoid further confusion I will lay my points bare:

• Ulfric's actions, if taken as a whole, do not paint him as that much of Hitler as a lot of people seem to think (and I am aware I am bowing to Godwin's law here and I did it on purpose)
• Tuluis is not some sort of tolerant all-inclusive champion of equality as people seem to think.

 

I have provided examples and facts to back my statement and I will stand by what I said.

Gentlemen, it appears that we have diverged from the OP. While it might (or might not) be an interesting topic (Racism in Skyrim) it is NOT the topic of this Thread (When do you typically play the CW quest). The discussion of Skyrim racism ends right now on this Thread. Future posts alluding to this topic will be removed. 

 

On the other hand, if you REALLY want to get into it, I am unaware of any Rules that you would be breaking should you wish to start a different Thread with THAT topic.