Sex Mod Framework - Development Discussion

[NiffyFox]

I haven's gotten starfield yet to to irl problems, but my ultimate question is how will creature sex animations work? or are we going the WW way and just not doing it? if so that would be kinda sad, I mean its up to the creators of the framework to decide what they wanna add but I wouldn't limit it, if you cant add it do to modding constraints that's one thing but to just not add it just because, is silly.

[YukiJudai]

Do you think it would be possible to create mods with alien race systems for NPCS or for player character creation and include them in 18+ mods as frameworks?

[Akira1364]

16 hours ago, MintBerryCrunch! said:

Are we sure that we will be able to create custom animations for Starfield?

 

Don't Skyrim and FO4 require an old version of HCT that can be pirated, while Starfield is using a version of Havoc that we can't get our hands on?

As I said earlier, Starfield is confirmed to be not-Havok-at-all, it's something handrolled by Beth that uses entirely separate files to handle annotations, similar to Fromsoft's "TAE" files used in the Souls games and Elden Ring. Everything we know about animations for previous games is no longer relevant, it'll all need to be reverse engineered from scratch. Though we need uh, the ability to even edit Starfield NIFs before that occurs, for one. TLDR this is gonna take way way way way way longer than I think a lot of people believe it will.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Akira1364

[asdt123123]

2 hours ago, Akira1364 said:

As I said earlier, Starfield is confirmed to be not-Havok-at-all, it's something handrolled by Beth that uses entirely separate files to handle annotations, similar to Fromsoft's "TAE" files used in the Souls games and Elden Ring. Everything we know about animations for previous games is no longer relevant, it'll all need to be reverse engineered from scratch. Though we need uh, the ability to even edit Starfield NIFs before that occurs, for one. TLDR this is gonna take way way way way way longer than I think a lot of people believe it will.

It's using https://github.com/ConfettiFX/The-Forge  for the animations.

 

So https://guillaumeblanc.github.io/ozz-animation/

[MintBerryCrunch!]

51 minutes ago, asdt123123 said:

It's using https://github.com/ConfettiFX/The-Forge  for the animations.

 

So https://guillaumeblanc.github.io/ozz-animation/

 

 

Is this confirmed?

 

These 2 articles claim that it's still using Havok:

 

https://www.starfielddb.com/creation-engine-2/

 

https://hardcoregamer.com/guides/starfield-what-engine-does-it-run-on/465228/

 

The quote from both of these:

 

Quote

The Creation Engine 2 uses the Havok engine for character and NPC animation, providing more life-like simulations than the original Creation Engine

 

There are also specific console commands in Starfield that reference Havok:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Starfield/comments/166uhzb/starfield_console_command_list/

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

Edit: Okay, from the the Github page of The Forge it seems like it's confirmed:

 

https://github.com/ConfettiFX/The-Forge#news

 

I would still love someone to explain to me why the game still has Havok specific console commands as I find this very interesting. Is Havok still handling physics while The Forge handles animations?

Edited September 3, 2023 by MintBerryCrunch!

[sherrif]

20 minutes ago, MintBerryCrunch! said:

I would still love someone to explain to me why the game still has Havok specific console commands as I find this very interesting. Is Havok still handling physics while The Forge handles animations?

No Man's Sky also utilizes Forge and Havok, as explained by the second part of that same news post.

 

Obviously since Forge wasn't there at the start, they used Havok's animation system, which has been a thorn in the side of animation mods for the game, and from what I can gather Starfield hasn't been confirmed to be using Ozz animations beyond some dev comments being "off handed" about using an all new animation system (which was said in the context of "we can do more with this system"). It could very well be using Havok's still.

[Vyria]

3 hours ago, Akira1364 said:

As I said earlier, Starfield is confirmed to be not-Havok-at-all, it's something handrolled by Beth that uses entirely separate files to handle annotations, similar to Fromsoft's "TAE" files used in the Souls games and Elden Ring. Everything we know about animations for previous games is no longer relevant, it'll all need to be reverse engineered from scratch. Though we need uh, the ability to even edit Starfield NIFs before that occurs, for one. TLDR this is gonna take way way way way way longer than I think a lot of people believe it will.

Didn't bethesda say that this games mod compatibility will be better than their previous games? I guess for modding to really begin, we will need to wait for the actual release.

[DoomSequirrel]

Well since this seems to be in the planning / wishlist phase, here are my 2 cents about this:

 

I think a new framework should focus on content creation first. That is, the interface should be as simple as possible in order to allow for rapid development of our scripts. Additional GUI like we saw with the newer frameworks should always be optional. It's nice for some users, but most folks just want something that works out of the box and doesn't intrude on whatever the quest / dialog / etc. is doing.

 

In addition I think it would be sweet to have some kind of context for any given scene, so that a script can have better control over the scene. This should allow modders to easily create more complex scenes, staged animation and stuff like that. So maybe something like this:
 

Quote

 

Actor player;

Actor[] partners;

bool isInDialog;

int dialog_reponse = CONST_DIALOG_START;

 

function StartScene()

{

      var scene = NewSexyFramework.CreateScene();

      NewSexyFramework.RegisterAnimationCompleted(scene, OnSceneAnimationCompleted);

      UndressActors();

      NewSexyFramework.StartAnimation(scene, player, partners, "vanilla sex");

}

 

function OnSceneAnimationCompleted(handle scene)

{

    if(isInDialog)

    {

       NewSexyFramework.ChangeCurrentAnimationStage(scene, "idle") //maybe add optional switch to play subanimation 

       NewSexyFramework.RepeatCurrentAnimation(scene)

    }

    else if(dialog_response == CONST_DIALOG_START && actors.length == 2) 

    {

        NewSexyFramework.RepeatCurrentAnimation(scene)

        StartNPCWalkIntoSceneAndForceGreet();

    }

    else if(dialog_reponse == CONST_DIALOG_STOP)

    {

        NewSexyFramework.DestroyScene(scene);

    }

    else if(dialog_response == CONST_DIALOG_ACCEPT_THREESOME) 

    {

        AddNPCToGroup()

        NewSexyFramework.StartAnimation(scene, player, partners, "some threesome") //play a completely different animation

    }

    else if(dialog_response == CONST_DIALOG_DECLINE_THREESOME) 

    {

        StartNPCWalkAway();

        NewSexyFramework.RepeatCurrentAnimation(scene)

    }

    else 

    {

        NewSexyFramework.DestroyScene(scene);

        DessActors(); 

    }

}

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by DoomSequirrel

[asdt123123]

5 hours ago, MintBerryCrunch! said:

 

 

Is this confirmed?

 

These 2 articles claim that it's still using Havok:

 

https://www.starfielddb.com/creation-engine-2/

 

https://hardcoregamer.com/guides/starfield-what-engine-does-it-run-on/465228/

 

The quote from both of these:

 

 

There are also specific console commands in Starfield that reference Havok:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Starfield/comments/166uhzb/starfield_console_command_list/

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

Edit: Okay, from the the Github page of The Forge it seems like it's confirmed:

 

https://github.com/ConfettiFX/The-Forge#news

 

I would still love someone to explain to me why the game still has Havok specific console commands as I find this very interesting. Is Havok still handling physics while The Forge handles animations?

Yup decompiled it, it's using Havok.

[Halstrom]

Sounds cool, I personally like the AAF way of doing things too.
I look forward to seeing what we can get to work.
I will probably get involved in something SF like Pregnancy if we have critters 

[gegging]

Either keep it "simple" like Sexlab where it is a somewhat janky framework of tying gameplay and sex scenes, or a mostly dedicated animation player like OStim.

AAF was like a middle ground of both and wasn't good at either.

[Varithina]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:03 PM, fred200 said:

All I ask is watch out for feature creep.

Keep the scope of the project well defined - "Sex mod framework" and don't let other features creep in.

Something like "Sexlab aroused" is required - but not as part of this framework. Same for SOS.

 

 

There is an advantage of having the aroused controller and sos equivalent as part of the framework, everything should work without issues, where as sometimes getting things to work together and align can be a pain, if however it is all in one, animation control framework, arousal, schlong, then if set up you can just plug in as many animation packs as you want and it should then work, and of course that also means fewer esp/esm or what ever the files are called in Starfield, which is always a good thing, needing a dozen of them just to deal with all the various, what are in effect basic files means more chances of something in that mix going blert, and often at just the wrong time, where as combined they would all be integrated with each other, and coded to be smooth and sleek, well in theory anyway. 

 

And of course in the case of arousal frameworks, you then do not end up with however many you may get, with some being incompatible to some extent or other with the other ones.

 

Installation would of course be easier as well, it would be just a case of install the framework, install animation packs, install which ever mods run off both of them, done.

 

I personally would consider a sex mod framework to basically be the following;

 

Animation control and support.

Arousal as well as keywords and such controlling such things, eg skimpy clothing or being naked or such.

Fertility, pregnancy, possibly sexual diseases, wear and tear etc.

Reputation, what other think of the player and such, are they a slut, submissive or whatever.

 

You could of course in effect make it modular, but they should work together with no bridge patches being required, all of the should automatically register the presence of the others.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Varithina

[fred200]

I fear that Ashal will never complete an all-in-one.

And we would like something working within the next 12 months...

[vallixas]

Best thing about Starfield. Unlike Skyrim and Fallout 4 the bodies (other than the nude parts of course) don't need much work at all if any because the hands, the fingernails, arms, skin and such it's all already so high poly. So it will be interesting seeing modders produce arguably some of the most defined nudes we've seen in a Beth game yet.

[Burensc]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:19 AM, ignite123 said:

I have some concerns with Starfield and adult modding.

 

Watching the gameplay I noticed you cannot loot the space suits off dead npc, but also some npcs had helmets... Maybe there are certain restrictions. 

A person on reddit mention that maybe in vacuum & hazardous environments they won't be lootable. Which would make sense.

Hopefully all npc have a base skin layer that modders can work with (an underwear model).

I assume it would be annoying for modders if the base skin layer is a bulky space suit. 

 

Also in the clips of New Atlantis you'll see what I assume are procedurally generated npcs. Do they all have a house? Do they walk out of site and despawn?

As we know there are only 4-5 romanceable npc, maybe a few others. Look at the Skyrim marry anyone mod. How would something like that even work on Starfield? Same questions as above.

These npcs will probably be for decoration, and will only have a few lines of dialogue. Maybe a Modder can make something where you can romance any npc, then they get a apartment you can go to. 

For more sex related questions. Can we sex those npcs and then when done they just walk away and despawn? Maybe?

These are questions that will have to be figured out when the game comes out.

 

I have more concerns for the adult modding community for Starfield, but I'm also very excited for the game.

 

Lets keep ourselves in a mind of cooperation and have a willingness to work with other modders to make sure this game has a the best potential for modding. 

Hopefully it'll be big like Skyrim.

 

Thank you.

There is already a naked girl mod on Nexus, the first week of release... so it's not too hard even if it's a bit harder than other games 

[vallixas]

Yeah unfortunately, unlike with Fallout 4 and Skyrim before it, there's no simple remove all clothing solution because for some reason even companion outfits are hidden, you can equip them with other gear but their main gear is still hidden in the inventory. You have to literally go through console commands and unequipall just to get companions and npcs in their undies. A move I have no idea why Bethesda took. But it most likely has something to do with the fact that all NPC's have two sets of gear and when they're in a normal city they're in civilian clothing and when in hazardous areas they auto switch to the spacesuits. Most likely code to keep them from of course automatically dying on hazardous planets. But it shouldn't be too hard to make the gear not hidden.

 

But yes to answer the question ALL npcs have base skin layers, if you use unequipall on any random NPC they'll switch to their undies just as the companions do. Again their gear is just hidden in their inventory. Probably also done this way to prevent npcs from either losing the gear, or having the gear stolen and them dying randomly when they go in places not suitable without a suit.

Edited September 3, 2023 by vallixas

[ekw070]

I rather liked Sexlab.  Being able to turn on the voices you wanted to hear and turn off the ones you didn't was a great feature.  

[JinxUchiha]

The script extender is out it seems.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/106

[MysticDaedra]

Just now, JinxUchiha said:

The script extender is out it seems.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/106

Just came here to post this! @Ashal time to get the lead out!

[JinxUchiha]

[Felty5]

On 8/26/2023 at 2:24 AM, Ashal said:

To make it clear ahead of time for the people that have been asking. Though I've been fairly inactive with SexLab's development the past few years, I plan to develop a new sex animation framework for Starfield soon as it is possible.  

 

Though it's too early for me to say what to expect from it, expect it to be pretty similar in terms of capability to SexLab. I plan to take all the lessons I learned developing SexLab over the past decade and carry them forward into a new framework here. That means more of the stuff that ended up being sort of bolted onto SexLab in its later life will be better integrated into the core framework from the start, such as dynamic animation pack loading and more performative native functions.

 

As it's still early, it's impossible to say how long this will take. Much of its development is likely to be stalled until certain other mod developments are released, such as an equivalent of SKSE and FNIS/Nemesis.

 

I will likely at some point, need to enlist the help of an animator to provide assistance with fleshing out how the animation packs will be best setup and to provide a set of initial animations to use for development. If any such experienced animators are willing to lend me their assistance with helping lay the groundwork for the framework, please do message me and let me know.

 

I'll keep this post updated as developments are made. After the game is out and I have time to dig into it's modding capabilities, I will put together a list of planned functionality and API.

 

In the meantime, I welcome anybody who wants to provide their ideas for the framework here, as long as they are shared in a constructive manner, and remain within the scope of the framework. 

there is already a script extender for starfield Starfield Script Extender (SFSE) at Starfield - Nexus Mods

[Felty5]

Just now, Felty5 said:

there is already a script extender for starfield Starfield Script Extender (SFSE) at Starfield - Nexus Mods

I never saw the comment above me

 

[robert_d_negro]

my early impressions regarding npc behavior and potential ll mods

 

- ignoring the generic npc... some characters look really nice and there is a huge step up in facial animations and dialogue

- even the uniqe npc dont have a 24 hour cycle... but i need to follow them more closely

- cant figure out how to change clothes/armor/guns for followers

- the boostpack is the new archery... followers equip it at random moments even in safe zones

[TheCaptn]

10 minutes ago, robert_d_negro said:

- cant figure out how to change clothes/armor/guns for followers

 

You just hit the equip key when looking at their inventory. By default it's 'B'.

When you're looking at your own inventory it equips things on you, when you're looking at a follower's inventory you're equipping it on them.
Also they do the infinite ammo thing, like in previous games, so if you have a powerful gun with limited ammo just let your follower use it until you've stocked up on more.

Edited September 4, 2023 by TheCaptn

[Vasoka]

Looking forward to the framework! Wonder how long until CBBE etc body mods come out for Starfield as well?