Sex Mod Framework - Development Discussion

[fred200]

All I ask is watch out for feature creep.

Keep the scope of the project well defined - "Sex mod framework" and don't let other features creep in.

Something like "Sexlab aroused" is required - but not as part of this framework. Same for SOS.

 

[abcd99]

FYI: The Starfield Script Extender (SFSE) is being developed by SKSE developer(s)

https://github.com/ianpatt/sfse

 

Edit:
Released per September 03, 2023

https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/106

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by abcd99

[zaira]

I would pretty much appreciate a light weight "Starsex" framework. Sexlab has grown over the time into a monstrous, complex thingy.

I wish that things like cum management, facial expressions, positioning, clothing management, stage queue management (smooth transitions) and voice become separate modules that can be improved independently over the time without hacking or patching things.

Edited August 31, 2023 by zaira

[devildx]

Since you will be doing a new framework one thing that I wanted the sexlab had is a "tag" animation system that cycle trough the animations of the same type.

 

For example a scene will ramdomly select one of 10 anal animations that I have and it selected the animation "7" that is now tagged. Next time that a anal scenes starts animation 7 will not be in the pool. This way you will eventually see all of your anal animations without the need to slelect them manually.

[KiTiTy]

I'm really sleepy and this probably isn't much help, but I'm really looking forward to space cock! All contributions to this will be greatly appreciated and adored!

Thanks in advance to anyone wanting to work on this!

[BAB PEEG]

Hope it's better then the mess that fallout 4 is.

[Chibgy]

1 hour ago, BAB PEEG said:

Hope it's better then the mess that fallout 4 is.

You cant land on and explore Saturn, games unplayable.

[Miauzi]

Vor 19 Minuten sagte Chibgy:

Man kann nicht auf dem Saturn landen und ihn erkunden, Spiele sind nicht spielbar.

 

You do realise that Saturn, as a gas giant, has NO defined surface - nothing comparable to a rocky planet (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars)?

?

[Chibgy]

7 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

 

You do realise that Saturn, as a gas giant, has NO defined surface - nothing comparable to a rocky planet (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars)?

?

ya thats the joke lmao, some guy made a tweet trying to say the game doesnt have true exploration because you cant land on every planet. then posted a picture of someone looking at Saturn.

[jg8ts]

9 hours ago, zaira said:

I would pretty much appreciate a light weight "Starsex" framework. Sexlab has grown over the time into a monstrous, complex thingy.

I wish that things like cum management, facial expressions, positioning, clothing management, stage queue management (smooth transitions) and voice become separate modules that can be improved independently over the time without hacking or patching things.

 

I agree. I can't write software really but I am a project manager. We clearly need to avoid some of the not-so-good things from the past, and for that we need the smart people to lay out a vision and architect the best dividing lines for those capabilities as modules, and understand the dependencies between those modules so ideally they are one-way. We don't end up with duplicate implementations leading to a fragmentation of effort. Without thinking this through too much i feels like a layered design with a skeleton, core animation framework, and a core sex animation framework around which we add those modules:

• second-order "individual" capabilities that apply to each PC/NPC like arousal, cum management, fertility/pregnancy, bondage/restraint, sweating/wet looks, blushing, stripping, physical and psychological wear/tear, drugs/addiction etc
• third-order "interaction" capabilities that bring two or more characters together like kidnap/abduction, capture, slaver, animation management, slavery, debt/ownership
• the fourth-order "culture" that we can build on those blocks like a slave marketplace, prostitution, seedier bars (only seen one bar so far and it's so annoyingly clean and shiny)

With good config it should be possible ? to make a single version of each of these that will suit everybody's tastes (mostly).

Give the size of a game set on multiple systems this should be far more expansive than any of those previous Bethesda games. I am really looking forward to see where this goes.

[darkwins]

Can we please also make sure we get some kind of crowd funding going from the start, perhaps with Patron for all the contributors. Let's start out strong with Starfield!

Edited September 1, 2023 by darkwins

[bastuden]

On 8/26/2023 at 3:24 AM, Ashal said:

To make it clear ahead of time for the people that have been asking. Though I've been fairly inactive with SexLab's development the past few years, I plan to develop a new sex animation framework for Starfield soon as it is possible.  

 

Though it's too early for me to say what to expect from it, expect it to be pretty similar in terms of capability to SexLab. I plan to take all the lessons I learned developing SexLab over the past decade and carry them forward into a new framework here. That means more of the stuff that ended up being sort of bolted onto SexLab in its later life will be better integrated into the core framework from the start, such as dynamic animation pack loading and more performative native functions.

 

As it's still early, it's impossible to say how long this will take. Much of its development is likely to be stalled until certain other mod developments are released, such as an equivalent of SKSE and FNIS/Nemesis.

 

I will likely at some point, need to enlist the help of an animator to provide assistance with fleshing out how the animation packs will be best setup and to provide a set of initial animations to use for development. If any such experienced animators are willing to lend me their assistance with helping lay the groundwork for the framework, please do message me and let me know.

 

I'll keep this post updated as developments are made. After the game is out and I have time to dig into it's modding capabilities, I will put together a list of planned functionality and API.

 

In the meantime, I welcome anybody who wants to provide their ideas for the framework here, as long as they are shared in a constructive manner, and remain within the scope of the framework. 

 

This time around, can you make the intro more immersive and not have the characters stand in front of each other clipping before a scene starts, like in Skyrim's sexlab?

[Scrab]

On 8/26/2023 at 3:28 PM, xXDeliteXx said:

What's wrong with going for a more of an Ostim kind of UI and functionality?
Isn't it open source already?
Not that I hate Sexlab, I really appreciate it's existence.
But it seems like it may be "two steps back" in terms of next-gen.

I strongly disagree with this

 

While Ceo has done some impressive work, at the end of the day his work - and that of people leeching off of it - is incredibly 1-dimensional

 

A framework intended to be used to build an entire franchise around it - such as animations frameworks like SL or OSex & co - should always be in a supportive position. The second it tries to dominate the franchise, you just take away control from the people that actually need them - authors trying to write a story, thus harm the potential of the entire franchise in the process

SL completely overshadows FG for that very reason; FG tried to be its own "star player" and completely neglected integrations with other mods. Does that make it more stable? Certainly, but stability isnt quality. Further, quality isnt measured in how much the framework can push itself into the foreground

 

OSex & co is great if you only want to see 2 NPC fucking each other and nothing more, but what gives SexLab the position it is in is the way authors - both animating, writing and scripting ones - can interact with it

Consider: Whats the best thing about OSex & co? What is the best thing about SL?

For OSex & co, the answer will be "look at the features the framework has", however when I ask you the same thing about SL itll be "There are all these cool mods for it"

This is really important, the former is only good for the one mainting the framework. All the $$ n stuff. The latter however is better for the community, the entire economy will be more decentralized, allowing for offspring authors such as Baka or myself to be more easily recognized without first becoming besties with Ashal

The thing that makes SL so special, is that like with a scalpel I can put in adult scenes into a story without having to worry that that guard I wanted to give a quick handjob to let me through the door escalates into a highly intimate bend over penetration

 

What Im trying to say is that I rather have another SL 1.65 than seeing Ashal becoming yet another Ceo leech because "its more next gen"

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Scrab

[myDNS]

Well, it's already in the works: https://github.com/ianpatt/sfse

[TheCaptn]

27 minutes ago, Scrab said:

OSex & co is great if you only want to see 2 NPC fucking each other and nothing more, but what gives SexLab the position it is in is the way authors - both animating, writing and scripting ones - can interact with it

 

While I don't want to see a whole lot of effort and delay going into a full OSex clone this early, I do think it was pretty much the gold standard for single-partner sex in Skyrim. So it's probably worth considering iterating on some of those features, or at least thinking ahead for them... Because I think most players, most of the time are looking for couple scenes out of their sex framework. Not exclusively of course, but I think it's comparatively more rare for someone to play in a way that focuses on group sex, or defeat only, or niche kinks.
For the last few years I've been using both of them together in a kind of setup where SL sexualized the world, while OSex sexualized private spaces (houses, inns, safe interior cells, etc)... So I don't really see it as an either/or question. Ideally I'd like to see the best features of both being incorporated.

Some of the things I really liked about OSex that I hope might find a place in any new framework include:
* Interactive stripping
* Transition animations
* Foreplay variety
* The quickstart key, for those urgent moments
* The NUMPAD UI (except on the laptop, then it's awkward AF and needs a better alternative)

And there's one thing I'd love to crib from Wicked Whims for Sims 4, and that's the ability for an uninvolved NPC to ask if they can join in. Once they meet whatever conditions are set on that... Because it's one thing to plan out a threesome in the menu, but it would bring a whole different vibe if the third partner's taking some initiative and asking "Hey lovers, got room for one more?", before expanding a 2-person scene into a 3-person one, or even more.

[soldier847]

So as far as modding goes, the game does allow for a lot of options just with the setting and the more basic things. Suits can't be taken off dead or stunned bodies in Vanilla, but there is a non suited body that can be used.

 

There is already a "stun" type weapon damage type in the game. (EM)

 

Planets...... could use some work in vanilla, but for modders there is ample canvas space to draw.

 

Alien Flora and Fauna exist, including a Xenomorph Esq enemy, along with the typical "bandit" factions (note I'm still in the starting areas so there maybe more) along with a cave and outpost system.

 

NPCs won't wear space suits so long as the planet is habitable, so that cuts down on intial modding work needed.

 

Ship parts are modular, and each module has an interior that spawns only for it, so modding there would be easier than expected.

 

Overall, Vanilla leaves a bit to be desired, but the Mod potential is certainly there, it just depends on how spagettified Bethesda's code is, and if the game can hold people's attention.

Edited September 1, 2023 by soldier847
Grammer and clarification.

[kaxat]

15 hours ago, jg8ts said:

 

I agree. I can't write software really but I am a project manager. We clearly need to avoid some of the not-so-good things from the past, and for that we need the smart people to lay out a vision and architect the best dividing lines for those capabilities as modules, and understand the dependencies between those modules so ideally they are one-way. We don't end up with duplicate implementations leading to a fragmentation of effort. Without thinking this through too much i feels like a layered design with a skeleton, core animation framework, and a core sex animation framework around which we add those modules:

• second-order "individual" capabilities that apply to each PC/NPC like arousal, cum management, fertility/pregnancy, bondage/restraint, sweating/wet looks, blushing, stripping, physical and psychological wear/tear, drugs/addiction etc
• third-order "interaction" capabilities that bring two or more characters together like kidnap/abduction, capture, slaver, animation management, slavery, debt/ownership
• the fourth-order "culture" that we can build on those blocks like a slave marketplace, prostitution, seedier bars (only seen one bar so far and it's so annoyingly clean and shiny)

With good config it should be possible ? to make a single version of each of these that will suit everybody's tastes (mostly).

Give the size of a game set on multiple systems this should be far more expansive than any of those previous Bethesda games. I am really looking forward to see where this goes.

In my opinion the plan proposed by Zaira will help you achieve the opposite of your goal. We already have FO4 as an example of trying to keep the core framework focused on just one thing. From there it was up to devs to implements all the other features of SexLab. The result was a lot more duplication of efforts. Notably increased script load. Countless features missing. Because they required brainstorming from multiple mods and that is always difficult.

 

When I use AAF I am often left wishing it was SexLab. AAF was basically roll your own SexLab by combining mods. That strategy did not play out as I hoped.

You are on to something with wanting to thoroughly plan things out. But if you are a software PM you realize how fluid software dev is. Waterfall design frequently backfires. The more agile strategy would be to build modules alongside the core framework. From here you can dogfood and iterate the core framework. Adding hooks, events, and additional API functions, as the modules require. If the modules are open source they can be forked once they reach maturity. If the API calls and events are public those forks will have no problems growing into their own. If the module is truly optional some users may choose to disable it. To me this is the best strategy for developing a versatile mod ecosystem with as many features as SexLab. However I would have a different opinion if I had not watched how AAF unfolded. AAF would have benefited from better planing and discussion like you suggest. But that is the issue with waterfall design. You can always benefit from having more foresight than you actually had. What you have is never enough.

Edited September 1, 2023 by kaxat

[rune269]

I think it would be very cool/nice if there were more defined clothing slots as well. It's quite jarring when a character moves to take clothing off and bam - somehow the entire clothing set has flashed off, shirt pants, everything.

[Akira1364]

Starfield uses a completely new implementation of animations that is not Havok, so that's going to have to be fully reverse engineered and understood before anyone can actually make animations for Starfield, it's worth noting.

[thefabulousfink]

A couple thoughts:

• Tag and/or a system to handle animations in hazardous environments or vacuum.  This could be as simple as blocking animations that remove protective gear, or more complex like quipping specialized gear to protect the actors during the animation.
• Along with a branching animation tree, it would be nice to support user input during or between the scenes.  Allow giving the user a prompt and have their response drive which scene gets selected next.
• A smooth transition from gameplay into animation.  Example: a stealth takedown that goes right into an animation.

[TheCaptn]

2 hours ago, thefabulousfink said:

• Tag and/or a system to handle animations in hazardous environments or vacuum.  This could be as simple as blocking animations that remove protective gear, or more complex like quipping specialized gear to protect the actors during the animation.

 

Wow! Yes! Absolutely essential... I hadn't considered that at all, but you're 100% on point. We could kinda hand-wave it away in some place like The Glowing Sea, but this really is the first Bethesda game where sex just shouldn't be possible in a whole range of hazardous environments. Most notably in the temperatureless vacuum like you say.

Edited September 2, 2023 by TheCaptn

[D.Hentaci]

Nice!

 

I like where this is going xD

Edited September 2, 2023 by D.Hentaci

[leonardo7th]

7 hours ago, thefabulousfink said:

A couple thoughts:

• Tag and/or a system to handle animations in hazardous environments or vacuum.  This could be as simple as blocking animations that remove protective gear, or more complex like quipping specialized gear to protect the actors during the animation.

I fully agree. But I wish there would be some way to standardize the tags themselves. I am reminded of the SexLab animations tags and how a lot of animation packs included different words for the same tags in other packs (i.e. blowjob = fellatio, threesome = 3some, etc), and how that would cause a lot of redundancy when you tried to manage a large list of animations and their triggers across multiple packs.

 

I am not sure how you would do that though. Perhaps by creating a standardized glossary of tags for animators to use?

[MintBerryCrunch!]

Are we sure that we will be able to create custom animations for Starfield?

 

Don't Skyrim and FO4 require an old version of HCT that can be pirated, while Starfield is using a version of Havoc that we can't get our hands on?

[leproso04]

I look forward to the mods. Thanks!