Defeat or Submit

[Regallag the Perv]

 

 Enjoy raping your foes, oh mighty Dovahkiin

 

 

Or being raped by your foes.

[dkatryl]

Just for shits, I was browsing the forums outside of the mod download section for a change, and saw this thread, was curious what was being discussed, and saw this one:

I have a problem with both these mods, in that they a HEAVILY slanted to the player as victim (ie getting "defeated" or "submitting").  The so-called "Ambush" in Submit, where you can supposedly attack while sneaking, is totally non-functional ... by design.  Please explain to me how one degrades the health of a sleeping NPC below 90%, without waking them?  EVERY NPC you encounter will be at 100% health, so both mods give 0% chance of success of a sneak attack (unless you cheat with the console, ie "modav health -100").  On the the other hand, the player can get raped by EVERY NPC they encounter, regardless of health, by simply pressing a hotkey.

 

One of the authors claims to want to give the player all the control?  I think not.  As I refuse to be raped, I have yet to have a non-consensual sex scene with either mod.  The NPC either ends up running away, or I kill them before they "submit" or are "defeated".  I suggest you remove the health restriction completely for the player as rapist - which makes it balanced - just a 100% success rape hot key - just like the 100% success submit hot key.  These mods are just toooooo PC for me.  Going back to SexAddict, where I can rape when I want to. 

 

I'd much rather use the Sexlab Framework, but all the mods so far makes me play the game as a victim if I want sex.  SexLab Zzz shows some promise, but its still a buggy beta, and will likely end up in the same place as Defeat and Submit - the player can easily get raped every five minutes, but its nigh impossible for the player to rape ANYONE, even a level 1, sleeping, novice necromancer with no armor or weapons, all alone deep in a cave somewhere.

I'm not sure I understand this post, because there is a lot of misinformation regarding my mod.  (I can't speak to Goubo's mod, since I don't use Defeat, but I imagine thre is plenty regarding his as well.)

1. How is Submit heavily slanted towards the player as a victim?    Given the history of my mod, I actually resisted adding the player submitting option for a long time.  My mod was originally simply a combat rape mod for the PLAYER to rape NPC's during combat as a nonconsensual companion mod to Spaceman's Romance mod.  The player surrender option wasn't added until much later in the development cycle.
2. The so-called "Ambush", where you can supposedly attack while sneaking, is... totally functional by design.  Your target does not need to have their health below 90%.  They can be at 100% just fine.  To compensate for the target potentially having 100% health, ambushing an awake target has a +25% success bonus, and ambushing a sleeping target has a +50% success bonus.  I use the ambush all the time in my own personal play throughs, and it works just fine.  So I have no idea what the entire first paragraph is talking about.
3. I'm the author that claims to want to give the player all of the controls, and I still fail to see what you are referring to and how you aren't given just that.  You refuse to be raped?  Okay, disable the player surrender function, or just simply never trigger it in combat.  How is that not keeping it your choice?
4. But more confusingly, after saying you don't want to be raped, why would you then say that you have yet to have a nonconsensual sex scene with the mod.  Do you expect a consensual scene involving being surrounded by bandits while they offer you flowers and chocolates?  Or are you referring to difficulties in raping NPCs?  Because, again, I seem to do that just fine during my own play throughs, even on a new play through with a currently level 3 character.  Again, I'm mostly puzzled by the entire second paragraph.
5. Both mods rely on the SSL Framework for all of the scenes.  StartSex()  utilizes a Framework function, so I'm not sure of what that has to do with anything.  And again, as to level 1 sleeping necromancers, I have no issue using my mod on a target, even with a new level 3 guy.  So, basically, I'm just confused about the third paragraph.

So, basically, I don't really understand paragraph #1, #2, or #3, other than apparently you want 100% success no matter what against any target you come across, and anything less than that means the mod obviously doesn't work.

 

Again, I can only speak to my own mod, not Goubo's, although I suspect that, while particular details are naturally different, the overall points are the same for both.

[dkatryl]

I haven't checked for myself as yet, but can anyone confirm that in "Defeat" there IS in fact a way to make the player able to rape NPCs at full health with a 100% success chance?

 

Also, given that such a feature is lacking in "Submit",  does anyone happen to know what code to alter (and how to alter it) so as to add that feature to the Submit mod?

You can potentially Ambush any NPC no matter their health %.  It isn't guaranteed, of course, as that would be stupidly OP, there is a success algorithm that is largely based on your skills vs theirs, etc, but it is indeed possible.

 

If combat is engaged, then they have to be 90% or less.  If you wish to change that in your personal copy, you just have to edit the _SLSubmitShout and _SLSubmitSmack scripts.

[Jarl Cocksmith]

Thanks for telling me what scripts I should edit, in order to get a 100% success rate even at full health.

 

As to the ambush bit, since it's not guaranteed, it doesn't fit the bill, so it's of no relevance to my question.

 

Thanks for the info anyway, though.

[dkatryl]

Thanks for telling me what scripts I should edit, in order to get a 100% success rate even at full health.

 

As to the ambush bit, since it's not guaranteed, it doesn't fit the bill, so it's of no relevance to my question.

 

Thanks for the info anyway, though.

If making it 100% success is your paramount concern, then the two I listed, plus also _SLSubmitAmbush for the Ambush.

 

I don't personally recommend making it 100% success, but I assume we're all adults here and can make big boy decisions like that on our own.  So if that's what you want, and you're willing to tweak it how you like on your own time, then I'll point you in the direction to look, as that's the entire point of modding!

[Jarl Cocksmith]

Ah, _SLSubmitAmbush too.  Gotcha.

[Tensu_Makadi]

Just for shits, I was browsing the forums outside of the mod download section for a change, and saw this thread, was curious what was being discussed, and saw this one:

I have a problem with both these mods, in that they a HEAVILY slanted to the player as victim (ie getting "defeated" or "submitting").  The so-called "Ambush" in Submit, where you can supposedly attack while sneaking, is totally non-functional ... by design.  Please explain to me how one degrades the health of a sleeping NPC below 90%, without waking them?  EVERY NPC you encounter will be at 100% health, so both mods give 0% chance of success of a sneak attack (unless you cheat with the console, ie "modav health -100").  On the the other hand, the player can get raped by EVERY NPC they encounter, regardless of health, by simply pressing a hotkey.

 

One of the authors claims to want to give the player all the control?  I think not.  As I refuse to be raped, I have yet to have a non-consensual sex scene with either mod.  The NPC either ends up running away, or I kill them before they "submit" or are "defeated".  I suggest you remove the health restriction completely for the player as rapist - which makes it balanced - just a 100% success rape hot key - just like the 100% success submit hot key.  These mods are just toooooo PC for me.  Going back to SexAddict, where I can rape when I want to. 

 

I'd much rather use the Sexlab Framework, but all the mods so far makes me play the game as a victim if I want sex.  SexLab Zzz shows some promise, but its still a buggy beta, and will likely end up in the same place as Defeat and Submit - the player can easily get raped every five minutes, but its nigh impossible for the player to rape ANYONE, even a level 1, sleeping, novice necromancer with no armor or weapons, all alone deep in a cave somewhere.

I'm not sure I understand this post, because there is a lot of misinformation regarding my mod.  (I can't speak to Goubo's mod, since I don't use Defeat, but I imagine thre is plenty regarding his as well.)

1. How is Submit heavily slanted towards the player as a victim?    Given the history of my mod, I actually resisted adding the player submitting option for a long time.  My mod was originally simply a combat rape mod for the PLAYER to rape NPC's during combat as a nonconsensual companion mod to Spaceman's Romance mod.  The player surrender option wasn't added until much later in the development cycle.
2. The so-called "Ambush", where you can supposedly attack while sneaking, is... totally functional by design.  Your target does not need to have their health below 90%.  They can be at 100% just fine.  To compensate for the target potentially having 100% health, ambushing an awake target has a +25% success bonus, and ambushing a sleeping target has a +50% success bonus.  I use the ambush all the time in my own personal play throughs, and it works just fine.  So I have no idea what the entire first paragraph is talking about.
3. I'm the author that claims to want to give the player all of the controls, and I still fail to see what you are referring to and how you aren't given just that.  You refuse to be raped?  Okay, disable the player surrender function, or just simply never trigger it in combat.  How is that not keeping it your choice?
4. But more confusingly, after saying you don't want to be raped, why would you then say that you have yet to have a nonconsensual sex scene with the mod.  Do you expect a consensual scene involving being surrounded by bandits while they offer you flowers and chocolates?  Or are you referring to difficulties in raping NPCs?  Because, again, I seem to do that just fine during my own play throughs, even on a new play through with a currently level 3 character.  Again, I'm mostly puzzled by the entire second paragraph.
5. Both mods rely on the SSL Framework for all of the scenes.  StartSex()  utilizes a Framework function, so I'm not sure of what that has to do with anything.  And again, as to level 1 sleeping necromancers, I have no issue using my mod on a target, even with a new level 3 guy.  So, basically, I'm just confused about the third paragraph.

So, basically, I don't really understand paragraph #1, #2, or #3, other than apparently you want 100% success no matter what against any target you come across, and anything less than that means the mod obviously doesn't work.

 

Again, I can only speak to my own mod, not Goubo's, although I suspect that, while particular details are naturally different, the overall points are the same for both.

Wow that one comment seems to have stirred up somethings and now that both mod authors have posted in here how about some colabiration between you two.... ok maybe a bad idea but also maybe a great one?

[dkatryl]

 

Wow that one comment seems to have stirred up somethings and now that both mod authors have posted in here how about some colabiration between you two.... ok maybe a bad idea but also maybe a great one?

Meh, if the comment was they tried the mod(s) and just weren't too thrilled with it/them, I can respect that.

 

Instead, they chose to trash both mods by listed a host of issues that were inaccurate at best and flat ass wrong at worst.

 

As to collaborating, I don't think that will likely happen.  I can't speak for Goubo, but other than bug fixes and minor tweaks as needed, I am considering Submit complete and have no future plans for it at this time.

 

That said:

Anyway, stop comparing those two mods, just try those mod and play with the mod you like or even both, and if you have questions/suggestions about a particular mod, just ask in their respective threads.

I agree.

[Thorn14]

I'd love to use Defeat but it never works for me. Even on new characters where it DOES show up.

[Digitus]

Oh thanks to this old thread getting bumped I learned both these mods are compatible. I guess I'll go and download Defeat and give it a go. I liked the "one stop shop" approach to Submit before but mixing more mods seems like it'll be fun. 

[Hanshin]

Now people have to decide, which mod, i can say after testing, submit from 6.12.2013 and defeat 4,2,1 don't work together.

 

You can still key submit, but auto submit dont work with any thresholds. And defeat seems totally deactivated, hp threshold system and scenarios also dont work when submit is installed. Also the ingame mod deactivation of submit dont help to swap between the mods, since even the debugger or mkyui mcm dont show any changes.

 

i dont know if the new submit is the problem or defeat 4.2.1, but the old submit 30.9 and defeat 4.1 worked together.

[nutluck]

With the changes to both mods I use both mods. Defeat for PC as aggressor or NPC/NPC and submit for PC as victim. Though I do miss the up to 6 NPC's taking turns on the PC from defeat. Would love to see defeat dovetail into submit, after defeat event it would trigger submit. But I don't see that happening, so this is the best compromise I have found.

[Thargon]

 

Except you don't have to use those mods if you don't want to  and like for serious you can absolutely use matchmaker to just have your way with anything anywhere at any time, and that was the first sexlab mod ever.

 

Matchmaker is just consensual sex without the dialogue.  It doesn't pretend to be a rape mod, and it isn't.

Defeat and Submit claim to be combat/rape mods, except only the player gets raped.

 

 

I've been toying with the  concept of making a Sexlab mod which focuses on a player becoming an Incubus or Succubus.

 

The player would assemble a "Harem" of Sex Thralls which he/she would harvest for sexual manna, which would in turn be used to augment the stealth, sexual gathering and persuasion skills, sexual gratification powers, and/or allow the creation of a secure "Lair" away from the consequences  of the angry citizens of Skyrim.

 

After proper "Training" a thrall could be let go, under the influence of their binding to the demon, which would allow the infiltration and take over of the hold until it becomes the hold of the demon.

 

Being Hetero, I would probably make the ability to persuade Jarls of the players sex via a specially trained and controlled thrall sent to seduce. 

 

Obviously, this would be an evil player character type of mod.

[Guest]

Now people have to decide, which mod, i can say after testing, submit from 6.12.2013 and defeat 4,2,1 don't work together.

 

You can still key submit, but auto submit dont work with any thresholds. And defeat seems totally deactivated, hp threshold system and scenarios also dont work when submit is installed. Also the ingame mod deactivation of submit dont help to swap between the mods, since even the debugger or mkyui mcm dont show any changes.

 

i dont know if the new submit is the problem or defeat 4.2.1, but the old submit 30.9 and defeat 4.1 worked together.

Getting the same issue, Defeat simply never kicks in now. Shame, Defeat on high health and auto Submit on low health was pretty good.

[Aethyri]

Just my two cents. I prefer using Defeat by itself.

 

It really seems to me that both mods are slowly working to the same endpoint anymore though, so both are viable. While I haven't used Submit in a long while, I can't say that I'm familiar with playing with it, though both documentations show that they are great mods.

 

Defeat just seems more interesting to me with greater complexity and more adjustable settings.

[TheGreyWolf]

I prefer using defeat, it seems to have more options for both victim and aggressor, I like how you can tie up your enemies, there use to be a feature where you could put them in a bag and take them to a prison but it was recently removed, also Defeat has companion support while Submit does not, same with NPCvNPC but I'm not sure about submit. Recently though it seems Submit has been getting a lot more updates, especially with the Devious Devices+Submit, Defeat you just get raped then negative effects, would be nice if someone did the same for Devious Devices and Defeat.

[renishi]

just installed Defeat today and so far I am liking it,it has some great features.

 

I looked at both mods/read the description's and decided Defeat was best suited for my play style.

[Tensu_Makadi]

Ok how is defeat and submit no longer compatible because I still use them both and they both seem to work just fine.

[WaxenFigure]

Ok how is defeat and submit no longer compatible because I still use them both and they both seem to work just fine.

 

Some people think they have to use one OR the other for some strange reason.

[Guest]

It's a new option in Submit, called Death Proof. If this is on (or any other mod that messes with death) then it blocks Defeat. If you leave Auto Surrender off, it doesn't matter. If you turn it on, you need to turn Death Proof off.

[sci fi samurai]

I use both.

 

I like Submit because it gives me a speech option with NPC's. Skyrim's speech system is pretty lousy compared to previous Bethesda games, so this has been extremely valuable.

 

I like Defeat for the combat rape because my dova is male, and women use cowgirl or reverse cowgirl when subduing him. So far as I can tell it's the only mod that can cater so directly to fem on male rape. Now if only there was a mod that made most enemies female.

[WaxenFigure]

I use both.

 

I like Submit because it gives me a speech option with NPC's. Skyrim's speech system is pretty lousy compared to previous Bethesda games, so this has been extremely valuable.

 

I like Defeat for the combat rape because my dova is male, and women use cowgirl or reverse cowgirl when subduing him. So far as I can tell it's the only mod that can cater so directly to fem on male rape. Now if only there was a mod that made most enemies female.

 

Have you seen the mod Feminized Leveled Lists?

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/22710/?

 

You wished but it was already done a long time ago, you just never heard of it.

 

[sci fi samurai]

 

I use both.

 

I like Submit because it gives me a speech option with NPC's. Skyrim's speech system is pretty lousy compared to previous Bethesda games, so this has been extremely valuable.

 

I like Defeat for the combat rape because my dova is male, and women use cowgirl or reverse cowgirl when subduing him. So far as I can tell it's the only mod that can cater so directly to fem on male rape. Now if only there was a mod that made most enemies female.

 

Have you seen the mod Feminized Leveled Lists?

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/22710/?

 

You wished but it was already done a long time ago, you just never heard of it.

 

 

 

Never did hear of it! Thanks for the heads up.

[Redflyingmonkey]

It's a new option in Submit, called Death Proof. If this is on (or any other mod that messes with death) then it blocks Defeat. If you leave Auto Surrender off, it doesn't matter. If you turn it on, you need to turn Death Proof off.

You just have to put the exhaustion threshold on Defeat instead of the health one ! That means you get the defeat rape happening if you get hit from behind under a certain exhaustion threshold, then if you get owned you get raped with the submit system, everything falling into place. There's just the problem of NOT getting hit from behind with the exhaustion under the threshold WHILE behing under the health threshold from Submit. For real, don't do it. 

[nutluck]

 

It's a new option in Submit, called Death Proof. If this is on (or any other mod that messes with death) then it blocks Defeat. If you leave Auto Surrender off, it doesn't matter. If you turn it on, you need to turn Death Proof off.

You just have to put the exhaustion threshold on Defeat instead of the health one ! That means you get the defeat rape happening if you get hit from behind under a certain exhaustion threshold, then if you get owned you get raped with the submit system, everything falling into place. There's just the problem of NOT getting hit from behind with the exhaustion under the threshold WHILE behing under the health threshold from Submit. For real, don't do it. 

 

 

Well with the deathproof in submit now you can just set your health to 0% in submit for it to kick in. Then if you use exhaustion for Defeat they should never over lap. I mean I suppose it is theoretically possible that you use up all your health and the last hit from behind is the one that drops you to 0% health and triggers defeat. But it seems like it would be a very rare chance to happen.