Animation Mods

[Myst42]

1. Exactly that one, the game anim folder "_male", didnt overwrite anything cause the vanilla one is in bsa pack, and yes I have an invalidation, so it should be using the one in the folder

2. I got nothing more in the _male folder, only the skeletons and body parts

3. Seems not necessary, in game it looks like you say, reverted to unnarmed idle, strange thing is turnright and turnleft are unnarmed too and I didnt make those

 

So what could have got wrong?... If you looked in Blender file, the pose is there and cicling...

But the kf is messed up

 

Gonna try again as simple as possible to make another experiment

[gregathit]

The problem I think you are having is your Bip01 bone is up where your Bip 01 NonAccum is, which is causing the bend in the screenshot above..  Instead put your Bip01 on the floor and you should be fine.

[Art_B]

I made some minor edits to the previous post for clarification but it looks like you didn't need it.

3. Seems not necessary, in game it looks like you say, reverted to unnarmed idle, strange thing is turnright and turnleft are unnarmed too and I didnt make those

I am not sure. This is could be because your Bone priorities are 26 instead of 20, which is default for onehandidle. I'm not  sure if this is the problem though because the turn animation priorities are 30. I would think onhandidle would not over-ride turning unless the priorities are at least 31. Higher priorities should over-ride lower ones.
 
You can view and edit these in nifskope under NiControllerSequence -> Controlled Blocks -> Controlled Blocks(for each bone) -> Priority
 
 
So what could have got wrong?... If you looked in Blender file, the pose is there and cicling...But the kf is messed up
 
Yes the Blender file is fine. This is where I got stuck years ago; in making transition from the blender .kf to a usable oblivion .kf. Unfortunately nothing in the tutorials at the time helped me and I gave up.
 
Gonna try again as simple as possible to make another experiment
 
I would be interested in figuring out what is wrong myself, because I would like to get back into it. If you feel like you have hit a brick all, as I did, you could try reaching out to some of the few Oblivion/Skyrim/Fallout animation modders that exist. It is a shame there are so few, because animation mods are in high demand. Animation is not easy, which explains why professional animators are also rare and do well for themselves.

[Art_B]

On reviewing Gregahit's comment, I think he is right. Bip01 is at waist level on you idle as compared to the vanilla idle, which has it on the floor.

[Myst42]

Nope... same result... animation turned to unnarmed idle

 

Now how do I do that?, is it simple enough like moving Bip01 bone to the floor using z axis translation?

Cause the only way to do that is in edit mode, in pose it moves the entire skeleton down, i found a bone with the name Bip01 it at the level of the hip

 

EDIT: BTW, Im using Universal Skeleton.nif, and i didnt change it, so all the bones are exactly where they are in that skeleton

Gonna try with vanilla skeleton and do some reverse engineering on vanilla idles

 

And how exactly do I see the animations with meshes in nifskope?

[Art_B]

 

And how exactly do I see the animations with meshes in nifskope?

 

You need to first load the skeleton.nif or skeletonbeast.nif from male folder. Make sure you have nodes visible by going render->draw nodes. Then go to spells -> animation -> attach .kf and load your kf. Then hit the play button at the top to play the animation.

 

As for the other stuff, it has been a couple years since I messed with bone locations in blender, so I can't really answer that. I am getting encouraged to try again though. There are more detailed tutorials out there, which we may both benefit to go through

 

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Manual/Your_First_Animation/1.A_static_Gingerbread_Man

 

A lot of it may be stuff you already know, but if you go through it, you might find little bits you missed.

[Art_B]

One correction: Bip01 is not exactly on the ground in nifskope, but it is at the subject's feet. Or rather it has an endpoint at the feet

 

 

 

 

Not sure what this means though. 

[Myst42]

You need to first load the skeleton.nif or skeletonbeast.nif from male folder. Make sure you have nodes visible by going render->draw nodes. Then go to spells -> animation -> attach .kf and load your kf. Then hit the play button at the top to play the animation.

 

As for the other stuff, it has been a couple years since I messed with bone locations in blender, so I can't really answer that. I am getting encouraged to try again though. There are more detailed tutorials out there, which we may both benefit to go through

 

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Manual/Your_First_Animation/1.A_static_Gingerbread_Man

 

A lot of it may be stuff you already know, but if you go through it, you might find little bits you missed.

 

 

Good to know you want to make things too!, the more the merrier 

There are so many people out there (and im one of them) that would like to make great mods, but dont know exactly how, so I guess whenever we got a chance to learn, we should take it.

 

Long tutorial... first part is about making mesh, part 2 is about animations... got a lot of useful stuff in between though

 

So I managed to see my animation in Skeleton.nif, and its not twisted or high placed

But I agree, there is something strange about Bip01 being on foot position in vanilla idles

 

No idea how it was placed there without altering the skeleton

 

Im gonna do the rest of the reverse engineering later

BUt Im not giving out on this, I feel getting closer...

 

Edit.. found this tutorial, it mentions something about a "Text Editor" that I didnt see anywhere else

Also, Im starting to think maybe tweaking existing animations may get me to where I want instead of creating new ones

[gregathit]

Try this one: AnimProject - revised.7z

[Art_B]

"Text Editor" is referring to how you add text keys to a .kf. Which are useful for a lot of things. For example, choosing the point in an attack animation where the hit lands. Adding sound effects to the animation. Adding facial expressions. Making left-right combos for attacks using two different .kfs. And some other things. In this tutorial, it just looks like a way to set the total number of frames for the animation.

 

Blender and nifskope both have a lot of of features. Learning them from square one can take time. Good luck, and keep us updated. I think I will start with the gingerbread tutorial and complete it, just to get a feel for the program again. I started tweaking your blend file little and I was very clumsy.

[Art_B]

Try this one: AnimProject - revised.7z

Same problem. At least in nifskope.

[Art_B]

One more note before I have to go for a while.

 

Umm...where are your hip bones? What skeleton is this? I loaded the animation with the universal skeleton that most people use and guess what?

 

 

 

 

You might be using a skeleton that is not compatible with Oblivion. I would love to stay and help, but I'll have to check back with you later.

[gregathit]

Try dropping this file in your game and seeing if it works:  OnehandIdle.7z

 

As was noted, you MUST use growlf's universal skeleton.  I recommend the controllable version:  http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/mods/37596/?

[Myst42]

 

One more note before I have to go for a while.

 

Umm...where are your hip bones? What skeleton is this? I loaded the animation with the universal skeleton that most people use and guess what?

You might be using a skeleton that is not compatible with Oblivion. I would love to stay and help, but I'll have to check back with you later.

Universal Skeleton

This one, Skeletonbeast.kf. just "Controllable" version

Umm maybe you tried loading a mesh and attaching the animation, it doesnt work

I tried Importing something like "FullBody.nif" which is my mix of upper, lower, hand, foot and head, with animation attached and it screws up

BUT

If you load "Skeletonbeast.nif" with "Import Skeleton Only + Parent Selected" and attach "OnehandIdle.kf" it loads right

 

Ill have to go for a while too, but I know y next 2 moves

First Im doing that tutorial complete, the one that makes reference to Text Editor, and taking a look at the other one too

Second, Im gonna try to edit existing vanilla onehandidle, see how that works, I already managed to load it right, just have to look how tweakable is is

 

Try dropping this file in your game and seeing if it works: 

That one almost works... what did you do?

I say almost cause its rotated to the right in like 90 degrees, so it faces opponents to the right, but at least it plays

 

EDIT: i just noticed that the vanilla Idle is actually rotated to the right in Blender... guess some kind of weird mirror and rotation effects are interpreted by either the game or the conversion part from .blend to .kf

It doesnt make any sense... I loaded Idle from DMC Specialanims and its not rotated in blender...

 

2nd EDIT: Im putting another file containing 3 Idles loaded in Blender which are Vanilla, DMC Stylish and the Experimental one, also putting Vanilla SkeletonBeast and a copy of my own Universal Skeleton plus all three animations .kf files

Also notice that the blender files I loaded were loaded using vanilla skeletonbeast.nif because it has less extra bones, which are not necessary for an idle, besides, if it loads with vanilla, it loads with universal skeleton

AnimProject.rar

[Myst42]

Ok my final update before going for a while

Managed to edit Vanilla Idle into Experimental version

At first it was rotated 90 degrees clockwise, facing enemies to the right

I tried rotating only Bip01 another 90 degrees clockwise and it solved the problem, now its facing where it should

 

So I guess Im now able to make tweaks

 

I would still like to know how to make new animations work... guess all Im missing is to know what did you do grehathit to make it work. The one you posted had that "looking to the right" problem, but I guess rotating Bip01 is the solution and it should work just fine 

 

[gregathit]

One thing right off is you NEVER use skeletonbeast.nif!!!  That is for creatures and NOT humans.

Use the skeleton.nif file.  The 90 degree deal can be fixed fairly easily either in blender or in nifskope.

 

Using your fullbody.nif once you import it then you have to delete the skeleton and THEN import a full skeleton along with the animation.  You can't load a mesh, skeleton and animation file all at one time.  It will always screw up.

 

Here is a well written guide to get you doing things the correct way: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/10838-guide-blender-nifskope/

[gregathit]

Ok my final update before going for a while

Managed to edit Vanilla Idle into Experimental version

At first it was rotated 90 degrees clockwise, facing enemies to the right

I tried rotating only Bip01 another 90 degrees clockwise and it solved the problem, now its facing where it should

 

So I guess Im now able to make tweaks

 

I would still like to know how to make new animations work... guess all Im missing is to know what did you do grehathit to make it work. The one you posted had that "looking to the right" problem, but I guess rotating Bip01 is the solution and it should work just fine 

 

The trick with animations is mainly to leave the Bip 01 on the floor.  All I did is move the Bip 01 to the floor and then move the Bip 01 NonAccum up so the feet were above the floor.  That was all I did. 

 

The rotating part is easy as you already figured out so that is covered now.

 

Avoid any bones that are scaling bones.  Using them is a quick way to screw things up.  Mainly you are going to want to rotate bones and not move them.  There are times to move things but most of animating is done simply by rotating.  The best way to start learning to animate (I still am learning) is to make changes to existing animations.  Doing stuff like adding bouncing breasts and moving a hand here or there will help you get your feet wet, while not overwhelming you.

 

Cheers,

Greg

[Myst42]

Uuuhh screw this, dont know exactly what you did, to get from the original experimental idle I posted to the working one

I moved Bip01 exactly to the floor and then all the other bones up... still unarmed idle

Ill leave it for some other day to try to make new animations from scratch

 

In the meantime, I can tweak, which is enough for my original goal, so its time to get started

 

One last question about pose mode

 

Is there a way of editing the animations in something similar to a closed kinematic chain?

Every time you apply rotation to a bone, it moves right, but it does so in open kinematic chain, meaning it moves all the bones which are linked distally to the bone you are moving

 

Sorry to use concept like open and closed kinematic chain If its not clear but its a physical concept, there should be made more clear and some googling could help too

 

The thing is an open one is fine, but some motions work in closed chain, for example a flexion of the hips and knees while standing on the ground should make the torso translate down but the feet are stuck in the ground.

And moving the thigh bones which equals to a flexion of the hip does so moving the whole leg in a movement that should have the feet fixed on ground

So is there a way to do this? And by any chance do you know which is it?

[gregathit]

What you are talking about is called "constraints" in blender terms.  You can browse the blender wiki: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Manual/Constraints

 

I can't help you here as I still have not figured out how in the heck to do them myself.  It would solve a lot of the issues I have when I mess with animations as well.  Sorry I can't be more helpful.

[Art_B]

So what I meant, when I asked where your hip bones were and what skeleton you were using, was that blender file you attached was missing some bones that universal skeleton usually has. The hip bones being a couple. Are you sure you imported the universal skeleton into the blender file properly? Or is it possible that you deleted some bones while animating? That could be part of what is causing you problems.

 

As with Gregahit, I think I have reached a point where I can no longer help without risking giving you wrong advice. So forgive me if I do not answer all of your questions. But you have sparked some interest in me. I might start with the gingerbread tutorial to see if I can replicate the results, then move on from there.

 

If you want to keep us posted on your progress with more .blend files and .kfs, I would be happy to look at them.

 

[DontBotherMe]

What he is talking about is Forward kinematic and inverse kinematic. you can use IK constraints for that. This is not the easiest way to start animating because you must learn of how to properly rig a character before getting to this. There are tutorials on this on youtube, But in the end most of it you must learn on your own even tutorials don't explain the most basic part, and will be experimenting far more before you start to learn how it is actually done.

[Myst42]

@Art_B: I have no possible explanation for what you describe, the last files I posted, are exactly what Im using, INCLUDING Universal Skeleton

Im pretty sure I didnt erase anything, and I imported those skeletons EXACTLY as they were.

The link chain is always:

Up: Bip01 - Pelvis - Spine1 - Spine 2 - etc...

Down: Bip01 - Pelvis - ThighL/R - CalfL/R - etc...

And I see all of those

BTW, i was using beastskeleton because ThatOne's tutorial said so ta make it look better in beast races, but i see its only for aesthetic purposes

 

@DontBoterMe: Im not sure if by rigging you mean having a properly "bonewheighted" mesh, that with the red and blue colors... Cause if its that, its done already, the animations are supposed to work for any mesh with the structure used in Oblivion. Ive done it before but I dont think there is need to do that again, Im only making animations per se, not making an animated mesh, the animated meshes exist everywhere

However if youre talking about another way of rigging or something else is needed then I dont know. "Forward/Inverse Kinematic  seem to sound like my question... I only need a Closed Chain or Inverse Kinematic (If Im right), for a few parts of the animations, specifically the legs

So could you please elaborate on what you mean by rigging in this case and also about that forward/inverse kinematic thing?

I could do it the normal way, but its more work, cause it means every time I move something Ihave to realign the ends of the extremity (feet) to the original ground position

 

Next Step: Greg's tutorial -> IK Constraints

[gregathit]

Rigging is as Dontbotherme stated not a good place to start out with regards to animating.  It is far better to load up existing animations and play with them.

 

If however you are one that just has to touch the hot stove then feel free: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.4/Tutorials/Animation/BSoD/Character_Animation/Rigging

 

This will deal with both rigs and constraints.  This assumes that you are more than familiar with the basics.  This stuff is over my head so I can't offer anything other than the link.  When I get more of the projects off my plate I will delve into this but it will be months away at the earliest.

 

Good luck.

[DontBotherMe]

What you are asking the full wholly grail of animating. Witch can't be explained by mere tutorials. The stuff require to get fully rigged armature means you need to know every part of blender to be able to accomplish this. And no one really explains it full of loss of others becoming better then they are. So every animator always seem to keep some stuff hidden from others.

 

But if you go to youtube or blender wiki there plenty of stuff out there that can you get you on your way to becoming a pro yourself.

 

 

@DontBoterMe: Im not sure if by rigging you mean having a properly "bonewheighted" mesh, that with the red and blue colors... Cause if its that, its done already, the animations are supposed to work for any mesh with the structure used in Oblivion. Ive done it before but I dont think there is need to do that again, Im only making animations per se, not making an animated mesh, the animated meshes exist everywhere

However if youre talking about another way of rigging or something else is needed then I dont know. "Forward/Inverse Kinematic  seem to sound like my question... I only need a Closed Chain or Inverse Kinematic (If Im right), for a few parts of the animations, specifically the legs

So could you please elaborate on what you mean by rigging in this case and also about that forward/inverse kinematic thing?

I could do it the normal way, but its more work, cause it means every time I move something Ihave to realign the ends of the extremity (feet) to the original ground position

 

Next Step: Greg's tutorial -> IK Constraints

 

Not just bone-weight weighting is actually the easy part, rigging the skeleton completely to be able to switch between Inverse Kinematic to Forward kinematic is the hard part. And usually animators actually charge you for complete rig. There are hardly anyone out there releasing these stuff for free. Also even if you think your finished there are still plenty to tweak.

 

It also depends what version of blender you are currently using. the old 2.49b has allot of stuff missing that where added later to version 2.5 or higher that would have done this easier. Also from what i read if it is just rigging you are after i think 3dmax is better way to step in now, due to many new scripts added for it then blender.

[Art_B]

^^^Is it still recommended to use 2.49 for oblivion modding? It is so old that blender interface has visually changed since then. And most youtube videos are with 2.6 now.

 

 

@Art_B: I have no possible explanation for what you describe, the last files I posted, are exactly what Im using, INCLUDING Universal Skeleton

 

Ok, after looking through your latest upload,  I now see that you have been animating with the vanilla skeleton. That is what you imported into your blender project. It has been so many years, since I replaced the vanilla skeleton with the universal skeleton, that I actually never saw it in nifskope. I guess there should be no problem with using the vanilla one; plus it would have compatibility with vanilla installs.