help with creation kit making duplicates

[bytorredoubt]

Please forgive me if this is located in the wrong place. I've searched but keep getting hits that are completely unrelated to my current issues.

 

I've made myself a nice castle in creation kit as a player home, which I'd like to populate with my followers so that I don't have to go all over skyrim collecting them every time I change my mod line-up an need a new save. however I'm running into a few problems. If I change the followers spawn location in my castle mod by deleting their original instance and adding an instance in the castle (or anywhere else), it creates duplicates of the follower and/or their packages (basically anything related to that follower that I alter gets made into a duplicate). If I alter the followers mod to change their location to my castle, it makes a duplicate of the cell for the castle (which is empty of anything but the follower).

 

IE:

Mod "A" adds my castle

Mod "B" adds Follower Cybele who spawns in the drunken huntsman

 

in mod "A" deleting FollowerCybele from drunken huntsman, and adding Cybele to my castle results in 2 Cybelles existing in creation kit, FollowerCybele and FollowerCybeleDUPLICATE001, and only the duplicate appears in game (broken with weird head of course).

 

similarly, if in Mod "B" I make the same changes, I get a new CastleDUPLICATE001 which is the only instance which spawns and contains only the FollowerCybele that was added to it.

 

I'm sure there's something very basic here that I've overlooked, but I can't for the life of me figure out what it is... any help that you can provide would be appreciated.

[Seijin8]

1 hour ago, bytorredoubt said:

I'm sure there's something very basic here that I've overlooked

Wouldn't say basic necessarily, but it is more than one thing -- you are changing the Ref, and probably not porting the facegen data from one version to the next.

 

Much simpler way to do this without the issues:

 

Instead of deleting Cybele from drunken huntsman (pro-tip: never delete, always disable), just get the reference from the Drunken Huntsman version of her and "moveto" player.  This can be easily scripted to happen when your castle loads, and can be done just once.

 

If you want this permanent with every game state (without scripting), then things get much more complicated, and frankly not worth it given the simpler workaround.

[bytorredoubt]

I'd considered that, but it only fixes half of my problems... my fault because I only explained half my problems assuming if I could fix this one I could fix the others the same way.

 

So, in this mod my other intent was to have all of my followers here and all filling certain roles given to them by packages other than the standard sandbox they all currently have. Some would be designated guards and would have a patrol package, one would be a cook and be given  and "activate furniture" (I think that's what I was using anyways) which would keep her at the kettle, and so on.  Because it's weird to come home and find my chef on patrol wielding a ladle. 

 

I get the same issue whenever I edit their package. it creates a duplicate package001 with the original package instructions (sandbox) as soon as the game or creation kit are run next. And of course its this duplicate that runs so they just sandbox as the feel like.

 

That's why I was thinking if I could fix one problem I'd be able to fix both... they seem to be caused by the same thing (editing the follower in any way) with the same results (duplicate of the edited item created in creation kit). 

 

I'm unsure why creation kit keeps making these duplicates when I edit the base. I'm really not trying to make another reference or instance of the follower, just move/edit the existing one to a different place/different package. Even just leaving Cybele in the huntsman but editing her package results in multiple packages (and one time in multiple Cybeles). The (mostly empty) duplicates of the castle confuse me the most. If I edit the follower mod and place them into the castle the castle duplicates... which made me start wondering if there's something of a dependency issue that I need to address or something else I'm overlooking?

 

Thank you for the help, I do appreciate it!

[Andy14]

You can only edit in the "active" plugin.
If you load 2 plugins, 1x Follower.esp only checked + 1x Playerhome.esp checked and active, then you can only edit forms in Playerhome.esp.

If you edit forms from Followers.esp, duplicates are created from them in Playerhome.esp (because playerhome.esp is the active plugin).

 

The same goes for master files - ESM.
If you change a form of an ESM, a duplicate is created in the active ESP. If an ESP does not yet exist or active, an ESP is created with the duplicate when saving.

[bytorredoubt]

Andy, ok that makes sense and is was one of the things I was afraid of... that even the act of making the follower spawn in the "playerhome.esp" is in effect a change to that mod/plugin. I was hoping it would handle it the same way the other mod manager files do when one overwrites details about another and just the last one loaded would stick.

 

So in that case, would a potential solution be to take all my follower mods, unpack/unzip them, and then repack them into my playerhome.esp file? That way they're all in the same mod so that I'm only then editing the 1 mod to make the changes?

[Andy14]

If I remember correctly, you can use TESVEdit to transfer data from one plugin to another plugin.
However, it is actually not necessary.
Because since you already have the followers as "duplicates" in the Playerhome.esp, they are already unique and standalone there.
So you can play Skyrim without active Follower.esp. The followers are now in Playerhome.esp.

Only the ID with "Duplicate" in the name is a bit ugly. You can rename the ID.

And if there are no vanilla followers (for example Lydia) and the heads are exported to the folder "Follower.esp" (in Meshes \ actors \ character \ FaceGenData \ FaceGeom), then rename the folder to Follower.esp and the Nif-name with (possibly) new ID.
Alternatively, you can load the Playerhome.esp (with the duplicated followers) into CK and export the NIFs in the Actors Tab with the correct ID and the correct path using CTRL + F4.

 

 

PS: If you rename "Duplicate" to a usable ID, pay attention to where this ID is already in use. CK does very few things automatically in this case, but not much.

 

  

1 hour ago, bytorredoubt said:

That way they're all in the same mod so that I'm only then editing the 1 mod to make the changes?

That would be the right way (as briefly indicated above).

[Seijin8]

9 hours ago, bytorredoubt said:

So, in this mod my other intent was to have all of my followers here and all filling certain roles given to them by packages other than the standard sandbox they all currently have. Some would be designated guards and would have a patrol package, one would be a cook and be given  and "activate furniture" (I think that's what I was using anyways) which would keep her at the kettle, and so on.  Because it's weird to come home and find my chef on patrol wielding a ladle.

So give those packages to the character, or use a quest to assign them through an alias.  You don't need to change their location -- if that packages are set up right, they'll go to the castle anyway.

9 hours ago, bytorredoubt said:

I get the same issue whenever I edit their package. it creates a duplicate package001 with the original package instructions (sandbox) as soon as the game or creation kit are run next. And of course its this duplicate that runs so they just sandbox as the feel like.

Assign a new UNIQUE editor name to things and there will be no duplicates.

 

Creation Kit hates it when two things share identical names.  Usually this is harmless, but not always, and the CK is very sensitive to it.

[Andy14]

Just now, Seijin8 said:

Creation Kit hates it when two things share identical names.  Usually this is harmless, but not always, and the CK is very sensitive to it.

It's not harmless, and that's why it's impossible - it's about ID. Here, the first name / nickname is not meant but the ID. And it is always unique (according to its nature).

[Seijin8]

11 hours ago, Andy14 said:

it's impossible

No it isn't, and most of the time the game doesn't care.  I'm not saying it is good practice.  If you are running more than a few hundred mods, I guarantee you have duplicate EditorIDs in there, and the game runs anyway.

 

Very few things are actually sorted by EditorID.  AnimObjects are one.  Most are sorted by FormID.

[Andy14]

3 hours ago, Seijin8 said:

No it isn't, and most of the time the game doesn't care.  I'm not saying it is good practice.  If you are running more than a few hundred mods, I guarantee you have duplicate EditorIDs in there, and the game runs anyway.

 

Very few things are actually sorted by EditorID.  AnimObjects are one.  Most are sorted by FormID.

I didn't talk about loading a lot of plugins in the game. It is logical that IDs appear multiple times.

This can and should be cleaned up with TESVEdit or xEdit.

I spoke of creating new forms in the CK and here it is not possible to assign the ID multiple times.

The formid is assigned automatically and has nothing to do with my statement.

[Seijin8]

24 minutes ago, Andy14 said:

in the CK

TESEdit lets you do it and it rarely breaks anything as long as it isn't an AnimObject.  CK freaks out if that esp then gets loaded and will try to rename everything, but the game itself doesn't care.

 

26 minutes ago, Andy14 said:

This can and should be cleaned up with TESVEdit or xEdit.

Agreed.

[bytorredoubt]

Just in case anyone in the future has this issue (I hate searching for threads only to find my exact problem but the poster never posted the results or fix), merging the mods the follower is from with the mod I created for my castle using Zmerge (and checking the box to include assets) did fix the issue.

 

This below I expected to work, but didn't. For whatever reason the duplicates were always broken in one way or another.

On 11/16/2020 at 10:41 AM, Andy14 said:

If I remember correctly, you can use TESVEdit to transfer data from one plugin to another plugin.
However, it is actually not necessary.
Because since you already have the followers as "duplicates" in the Playerhome.esp, they are already unique and standalone there.
So you can play Skyrim without active Follower.esp. The followers are now in Playerhome.esp.

Only the ID with "Duplicate" in the name is a bit ugly. You can rename the ID.

 

My castle is now populated by a few custom followers, all doing their appointed things, and the followers are still able to be recruited and taken on adventures. I'm now running into a new issue but I'll make a new post for that as it seems to be a completely different problem.

[Myst42]

As said above, you can only edit one esp at a time as active file. If you load more than 1, anything you modify gets saved into the active file as duplicate.

 

Solution is always TES5Edit.

One way is to get a merge script (google leads you to it) and you can use it to merge entire esp plugins and everything in both will be useable on the new merged plugin.

Another way is to use dependencies. You can use TES5Edit to change the flag of an esp into esp, and then you'll be able to load it into the CK as if it were a masterfile, same as Skyrim.esm or Dawnguard.esm. This way also allows you to use references from the masterfile in your active plugin BUT... when you save it will work with all the mechanics a dependency has, which means the active plugin is now dependant on the "master file" and the game wont even start if you dont have the masterfile active for you mod.

 

Also this is wrong

On 11/16/2020 at 6:11 AM, Andy14 said:

The same goes for master files - ESM.

If you change a form of an ESM, a duplicate is created in the active ESP. If an ESP does not yet exist or active, an ESP is created with the duplicate when saving.

That's not how esm AKA masterfile mechanic works. Whenever you edit a form from the masterfile, what is created is called an "Overwrite" Which is an edit of the masterfile's form while keeping the same ID. Duplication only happens when editing records from a non-masterfile, IE, load 2 esps at the same time.

That's how mamy vanilla-content-altering mods work. Just make an edit to Skyrim.esm, and the mod depends on it, but also changes specific records.

[Andy14]

27 minutes ago, Myst42 said:

That's not how esm AKA masterfile mechanic works. Whenever you edit a form from the masterfile, what is created is called an "Overwrite" Which is an edit of the masterfile's form while keeping the same ID. Duplication only happens when editing records from a non-masterfile, IE, load 2 esps at the same time.

That's how mamy vanilla-content-altering mods work. Just make an edit to Skyrim.esm, and the mod depends on it, but also changes specific records.

We're talking about the CK.

Load the Skyrim.esm, change an armor and try to save the Skyrim.esm - with CK.
Have fun trying to save an esm with CK.
CK just wants to know the name of the new ESP from you.

[Myst42]

2 hours ago, Andy14 said:

We're talking about the CK.

Load the Skyrim.esm, change an armor and try to save the Skyrim.esm - with CK.
Have fun trying to save an esm with CK.
CK just wants to know the name of the new ESP from you.

You can't save a masterfile with the CK

You can only save esp files. If there is no masterfile, of course the Ck will try to create a new mod, which is why you're naming the new esp. It's a new mod.

Whatever edits you do to a masterfile get saved into the active file, which if already defined when you first loaded, wont be asked, if not, it will be created.

CK always works with an "active" file. Whether you loaded it or not. If you didn't set a file as active, you'll save as one.

 

The edits done to a masterfile are saved as overwrites to it, but exist only on the esp, which in time depends on the masterfile.

Overwrites not duplicates. Duplicates are created only from multiple esp loads

 

If you want to edit a masterfile, the way is to set up the esm flag off on TES5Edit or make direct edits on TES5Edit. But it's not reccommendable unless you really know what you're doing, and you certainly shouldn't mess with Skyrim.esm since one mistake and you might breake the game. and every mod that depends on that file.

[Andy14]

11 minutes ago, Myst42 said:

You can't save a masterfile with the CK

You can only save esp files. If there is no masterfile, of course the Ck will try to create a new mod, which is why you're naming the new esp. It's a new mod.

Whatever edits you do to a masterfile get saved into the active file, which if already defined when you first loaded, wont be asked, if not, it will be created.

CK always works with an "active" file. Whether you loaded it or not. If you didn't set a file as active, you'll save as one.

 

The edits done to a masterfile are saved as overwrites to it, but exist only on the esp, which in time depends on the masterfile.

Overwrites not duplicates. Duplicates are created only from multiple esp loads

 

If you want to edit a masterfile, the way is to set up the esm flag off on TES5Edit or make direct edits on TES5Edit. But it's not reccommendable unless you really know what you're doing, and you certainly shouldn't mess with Skyrim.esm since one mistake and you might breake the game. and every mod that depends on that file.

I know - and that's what I wrote - all the time

[Myst42]

16 minutes ago, Andy14 said:

I know - and that's what I wrote - all the time

 

On 11/16/2020 at 6:11 AM, Andy14 said:

If you change a form of an ESM, a duplicate is created in the active ESP. If an ESP does not yet exist or active, an ESP is created with the duplicate when saving.

Duplicate is not the same as overwrite

Perhaps you understand it correctly but the term you used can lend itself for dangerous confusion. Duplicate is a different ref ID, overwrite is the exact same ID but used by a different file.

OP initial problem was about duplicates when he tried to do overwrites but failed because he wasn't working with masterfiles so he made duplicates instead.