Best way to manage load order..

[Grey Cloud]

2 hours ago, Tiress said:

Ah, poor choice of words perhaps. What I meant with "fighting capabilities" were things like perks, stats, combat style and skills. They are part of actor record so even though Bijin doesn't touch it, it blocks the actor edits from ESF.

We can leave it there. I still disagree with what you are saying.

[Tiress]

2 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

...

Is this directed at everyone opposing you or just at me?

[Tiress]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

We can leave it there. I still disagree with what you are saying.

With what I am saying about LO in general or is it that particular sentence I used?

[bandygirl1]

5 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

It seems that after eight years playing and modding Skyrim, many people still use bad modding practices.
And they recommend their bad practices and bad habits to other users.

Forgive me but you are doing many things wrong. The first is to use incompatible mods.
If a mod has serious conflicts with another mod that directly affects the correct functionality of one of the mods, you must report it. If you want to make a patch to make them compatible, do it the right way.
Create an additional ESP with all the necessary records and, if you want to publish it, much better.

Stop doing barbarities like:
Adjust the order of the plugs MANUALLY to save work and copy fewer records.
Modify the ESP originals of the mods so that they are compatible with what you want.
Tell other users that you can't use LOOT because it ruins your game.
Or that it is much better order the plugins by hand.

 

 

The best way to order the plugs is to use LOOT because it has been specifically programmed to do it.
Has been updated and modified for years to provide us with the best possible load order.
All good guides recommend use LOOT every time the load order is modified.
Vortex has LOOT integrated and is automatically executed every time a mod is added.

 

If you cannot use LOOT only can be because you are doing something wrong.
If the load order generated by LOOT does not work for you, stop blaming LOOT.

Ask yourself why LOOT works for other users but not for you. Request help if necessary.

Lmao, you still don't get the point, do you?

 

No one has said they " can't " use Loot. No one has told anyone " Don't use Loot ".

 

What I *will* say is that it is not the magical cure-all for load order problems. And that manual adjustment has it's place in maintaining a good LO as well.

 

As for the ' you must " comments, just lol. I must do nothing. I will if (<-key word here ) I feel inclined to. I'll also create patches exactly how I want, when I want. Considering I run with 250+ mods active, many merged, and have done so for the better part of three years without any issues while maintaining the changes and functionality *I* want in my game ( not what a program tells me I must go with ), I'd say I'm making the correct decision.

 

YOMV /shrugs

[bandygirl1]

Meh, just reread my last post, and I came off sounding like a raging bitch. My apologies; It has been a stressful day.

 

I'm going to leave it up, because I still feel like it conveys a valid point, but I hope @GenioMaestro that you don't take it too personally.

[GenioMaestro]

I don't quote anyone because I don't want to start a personal war or accuse anyone directly.
My words are addressed to anyone who does those barbarities.
I know very well that nobody wants to read "you are wrong" or "you are doing it bad" but if nobody says it we will never know it and the missconception continue expanding.

We are mixing concepts that, although directly related, are different.

When we talk about ordering the plugings it seems that the best tool is LOOT and it seems that we all agree that it works. In fact, the guides recommend it directly:

Spoiler

https://wiki.step-project.com/STEP:2.10.0

2.A. LOOT Sorting

At any time during the mod installation process LOOT should be used to sort plugin load order before running the game. This is necessary to ensure proper plugin priority order (load order), which can have a dramatic impact on the game

 

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/74427

 

Use LOOT to ordering your mod, you can nearly blindly trust it. Don't forget to read mod description author notices important information about load order, you can add your own rules to LOOT to ensure respect of Modders' indication.

 

Does anyone dare to say that the recommendations in those guides are incorrect? 

As i said many times i only repeat the same that is writen in the good guides.

 

Another completely different thing is the conflicts and ordering the plugings does not resolve the conflicts because the conflicts are caused by the mods that we install.
It doesn't matter that we order the plugings alphabetically or with LOOT or manually.

We will always go to have the same number of conflicts in the same mods for the same motives.
Putting the plugings in one order or another only changes the winner and that, most of the times, does not resolve the conflict.

The only way to solve severe conflict is to remove one of the mods or use a patch.

If the patch does not exist we will have to create it.
But please, do it the right way to post it on the forums and help to other users, to the creators and to the community.

Obviously, when we use a patch the order of the plugings is indifferent, if the patch is well done, of course.
It doesn't matter how we order the plugings because all conflicting records will be replaced by those in the patch.
Of course, is not necessary to place the plugings in a certain order to create or use a good patch.

Evidently, we only need follow the basic rules of moding: Put the patch under the patched plugings.

 

If your only reason to move the plugings in a MANUAL way is to save work and copy fewer records, I think you don't need to say anything else. If you have any other reason, please, explain it as clearly as possible.

[Tiress]

8 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

When we talk about ordering the plugings it seems that the best tool is LOOT and it seems that we all agree that it works. In fact, the guides recommend it directly:

The best tool for ordering plugins? Well, unless you count hands as a tool, that would be LOOT, I doubt there even exists any other competitor.

We all also agreed though that LOOT isn't perfect, that it has it's limits. I will not use it if I can achieve what I want without using it faster. So no, even though LOOT might be the best tool for me to sort and manage plugins, it's still not the best way for me to do so. Not in a way you suggest at least.

[Grey Cloud]

New version of TESVEdit out today.

[Tiress]

7 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

New version of TESVEdit out today.

I guess I asked for it...

[Grey Cloud]

22 minutes ago, Tiress said:

I guess I asked for it...

Enjoy.

[nemocdt]

I agree with GenioMaestro with everything but this,

 

On 12/3/2019 at 8:23 AM, GenioMaestro said:

All good guides recommend use LOOT every time the load order is modified.
 

 

 

Not all great guides recommend loot, a guide is the load order.

 

Firstly i'm not Loot bashing, Loot saved my ass for years it's great but nothing works better for me than sorting conflicts as you build your setup. 

The only complete way to order plugins is to understand what they do and what the change, and create patches accordingly.

If People are adding mods willy fuckin nilly or listed as incompatible and don't have a diploma in xedit i hope they have a cool ass desktop pic and plenty of time to post about corrupted saves and infinite load screens.  Loot won't save your sorry ass. 

 

[Grey Cloud]

8 minutes ago, nemocdt said:

If People are adding mods willy fuckin nilly or listed as incompatible and don't have a diploma in xedit i hope they have a cool ass desktop pic and plenty of time to post about corrupted saves and infinite load screens.  Loot won't save your sorry ass. 

You've opened the christmas sherry a bit early, haven't you?

I add "mods willy fuckin nilly" all the time. I also remove them mid-game all the time. I "don't have a diploma in xedit". I'm about at the level of a 'Bravery at the Dentist' certificate. Very rare a save gets corrupted, if it it ever does. I never get ILS. I wouldn't expect LOOT save my sorry arse.

If you get the base, vanilla game stable then Skyrim will take a lot of abuse on the modding front. People treat Skyrim as if it will crash if you so much as blink.

[nemocdt]

2 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

You've opened the christmas sherry a bit early, haven't you?

I add "mods willy fuckin nilly" all the time. I also remove them mid-game all the time. I "don't have a diploma in xedit". I'm about at the level of a 'Bravery at the Dentist' certificate. Very rare a save gets corrupted, if it it ever does. I never get ILS. I wouldn't expect LOOT save my sorry arse.

If you get the base, vanilla game stable then Skyrim will take a lot of abuse on the modding front. People treat Skyrim as if it will crash if you so much as blink.

as usual Grey Cloud's off his med's or drunk again.

 

bro i've seen your screenshots your game looks straight out of 2011 i guess your mom told you size doesnt matter. you havent even begun to push the limit's but as we are well aware you believe your setup and practices are the benchmark for all stability. All hail the Great Grey Cloud, Modern modding mystic, Loot legend and nexus mod manager master.

Grey Cloud is very apt, when you fuck off everyone is happy. 

Christmas sherry bahahaha. 

 

[Randy Lingster]

Bashing on people doesn't help the discussion here

[bandygirl1]

I had thought I had explained it fairly clearly before, but I guess I'll do so once again.

Yes, I'm perfectly capable of creating an entirely new .esp for a patch. That is not, and has never been an issue.

But, as I said; I have over 250 active .esps  now, with several merges. So no, creating yet another .esp isn't the best solution. So modifying the existing .esps is the ideal solution.

Modifying the load order manually allows correct sequencing when doing so. It's not about making " less work ". It's about understanding last loading priority record winning, and ease of gathering multiple record changes at once from different conflicting .esps.

 

It's certainly not a "barbarity". It's also not "wrong", nor is it done "bad".

Also; Why anyone would care is a question for the ages.

 

[Grey Cloud]

12 hours ago, nemocdt said:

i've seen your screenshots your game looks straight out of 2011 i guess your mom told you size doesnt matter. you havent even begun to push the limit's but as we are well aware you believe your setup and practices are the benchmark for all stability.

So basically you cannot refute any of my points so have had to resort to attacking me and making a remark about my mother. To this you have added some more nonsense.

Could you explain why my "game looks straight out of 2011"? And what does this have to do with stability?

What is this limit I haven't begun to push and why must I push this limit?

The methods I use use for stability were not invented or discovered by me, they are the simple things that are out there for anyone to use and have been for several years - Crash Fixes, SKSE Plugin Preloader and ENBoost. I also use Load Game CTD Fix which eliminates ILS.

[GenioMaestro]

The simple fact that you think that the metod that you are ussing for make the compatibility patch is THE BEST method does not mean that it is the CORRECT method.

Obviously, you do it faster and copy less records without using an additional ESP.

But it's not the right way and you know it.
Can you put the link to the guide, website or video that says that is the best way to do it? NO

 

Anyone with a minimum knowledge can read the OFFICIAL documentation:

https://tes5edit.github.io/docs/4-conflict-detection-and-resolution.html

Spoiler

Conflict Resolution is really a simple process that you repeat multiple times for each conflict in your load order. It is also the point at which your CPU (brain) gets involved in the process, as determining the action to take for each specific conflict requires your input. There are really only four options available to us for conflict resolution:

1. Do nothing at all - Often times conflicts are not harmful to the game and / or may not be something important-enough for you to care about.
2. Change the Load Order - where often times simply adjust the order in which the mods load can resolve the conflict to your satisfaction.
3. Add the records to a patch plugin - for cases in which the mods are important and the conflicts can't be resolved with load order.
4. Remove one of the offending Mods - if two mods simply cannot get along because of massive conflicts, one of them may have to go.

Spoiler

To create the new patch Plugin, you right-click on a conflicted record (A) and select, "Copy as override" (B). This will open the file selection window, where you can choose, "<new file>" (E) by either double-clicking it or by checking it's button and clicking, "OK". This will present you with a, "New Module File" window as shown on the next page, where you can select the name of your new patch plugin.

 

As always, I don't invent anything. I simply repeat what is written in the guides.

You can try to justify yours incorrect ideas as you want but they continue being wrong.

[bandygirl1]

It works. It efficient. And it accomplishes the goals of having the edits I want in my game and not increasing the .esp count without any negatives.

 

If you can't refute any of the above ( and you can't ) then I suggest we leave this discussion.  You are clearly locked into the idea that people use the methods you repeat from guides or they are somehow modding "wrong". Typing it here doesn't make it so, and isn't going to change anyone's opinion.

[GenioMaestro]

34 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

You can try to justify yours incorrect ideas as you want but they continue being wrong.

I not need say any more.

[bandygirl1]

Again, refute my points.

As I said; You can't. 

[GenioMaestro]

1 hour ago, bandygirl1 said:

without any negatives.

1 - Can you run LOOT? NO

2 - Can you remove the UN-patched pluging whitout any consecuence? NO

3 - Can you share and publish your patch? NO

4 - Can you upgrade the patched pluging to a new version? NO

5 - Can you use ANY mod manager? NO

 

1 - Maybe you not want run LOOT because you think you not need it but the normal players use it.

2 - You always can remove the UN-patched plugings and reinstall the originals plugings.

3 - You are not making a patch for help others users but that was never your intention.

4 - All your work is ALWAYS lost when the pluging is upgraded. The patch not break ALWAYS in each upgrade.

5 - You only can use MO and you can not use Vortex or others managers.

 

The basic rules of the modding process are designed for give us the less posible problems, the maximun compatibility and the bigger sharing from the work of the creators and the users.

Following the basic rules for creating a patch:

1 - Any person can run LOOT whitout any problem.

2 - We simple need remove one of the plugings and the patch because the other pluging is untouched.

3 - We can publish and share the patch and ALWAYS works in any instalation.

4 - The patch only need be redone when the upgrade affect the patch.

5 - No matter what manager we use because a good patch always work.

 

 

You are breaking all the basic rules of the modding process making thinks that are totally contrary to the instructions provided in the guides and totally contrary to the instuctions manual of Tes5Edit.

You never can say your method is the BEST because, always, the BEST method is the RECOMENDED method.

If you really think the RECOMENDED method is not the BEST method go to talk to the creators of the RECOMENDED method and leave us.

 

If your simple problem is the limit of 250 plugings you only need make more merge operations.

If you NOT have the necesary time for make a patch in the CORRECT way remove some of yours mods.

But please, use a bit your head and stop recomending aberant things that are totally contrary to the guides, the manuals and the common sense.

 

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

You can try to justify yours incorrect ideas as you want but they continue being wrong.

 

[bandygirl1]

Just a quick post to let you know I'm still following the thread. 

I don't have time to post a rebuttal at work on break, but I'll post it after I'm home. See you then.

 

 

 

[Randy Lingster]

The end result still works the same as the recommended method.

If bandy is patching an ongoing game it's even technically more stable if done correctly.

 

I'd prefer having one patch myself for less complexity but it totally works

[bandygirl1]

10 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

1 - Can you run LOOT? NO

2 - Can you remove the UN-patched pluging whitout any consecuence? NO

3 - Can you share and publish your patch? NO

4 - Can you upgrade the patched pluging to a new version? NO

5 - Can you use ANY mod manager? NO

 

1 - Maybe you not want run LOOT because you think you not need it but the normal players use it.

2 - You always can remove the UN-patched plugings and reinstall the originals plugings.

3 - You are not making a patch for help others users but that was never your intention.

4 - All your work is ALWAYS lost when the pluging is upgraded. The patch not break ALWAYS in each upgrade.

5 - You only can use MO and you can not use Vortex or others managers.

 

The basic rules of the modding process are designed for give us the less posible problems, the maximun compatibility and the bigger sharing from the work of the creators and the users.

Following the basic rules for creating a patch:

1 - Any person can run LOOT whitout any problem.

2 - We simple need remove one of the plugings and the patch because the other pluging is untouched.

3 - We can publish and share the patch and ALWAYS works in any instalation.

4 - The patch only need be redone when the upgrade affect the patch.

5 - No matter what manager we use because a good patch always work.

 

 

You are breaking all the basic rules of the modding process making thinks that are totally contrary to the instructions provided in the guides and totally contrary to the instuctions manual of Tes5Edit.

You never can say your method is the BEST because, always, the BEST method is the RECOMENDED method.

If you really think the RECOMENDED method is not the BEST method go to talk to the creators of the RECOMENDED method and leave us.

 

If your simple problem is the limit of 250 plugings you only need make more merge operations.

If you NOT have the necesary time for make a patch in the CORRECT way remove some of yours mods.

But please, use a bit your head and stop recomending aberant things that are totally contrary to the guides, the manuals and the common sense.

 

 

So, here goes;

 

1) Of course I can run Loot. Why wouldn't I be able to?

2) Umm...yes. In many cases I absolutely can. Not every edit requires setting the plugin the record was pulled from as a master file Genio. As a matter of fact, most don't.

3 Again, that was never the intent. You admitted that yourself. So, you brought it up because??? If that had been the intent, of course I would have simply created a new .esp.

4) Again, yes in most instances. As long as the .esp itself is not changed, there's absolutely nothing preventing me from DLing the updated assets, and replacing the .esp with my patched one. If the .esp is changed, then you'd have to make a new patch regardless if you used my method ( lol, I can't believe I typed this, as if people haven't been doing so for years w/o issue ) or created a new .esp.

5) Why would I want to? The patch is for me, and I use MO. Are you saying you can't use TESVEdit. and/or can't adjust your LO with NMM or Vortex? I have no idea what you are trying to convey here, but in the end, it's also irrelevant.

 

I gave my points above:

 

1) It works.

2) It efficient.

3) It accomplishes the goals of having the edits I want in my game and not increasing the .esp count without any negatives.

 

You've refuted neither of the first two, and honestly not the third with anything that isn't a long-winded diatribe that boils down to " so-and-so says " and/or " I don't like it ". And as I also pointed out; You can't.

 

 

[GenioMaestro]

12 hours ago, bandygirl1 said:

So, here goes;

 

1) Of course I can run Loot. Why wouldn't I be able to?

2) Umm...yes. In many cases I absolutely can. Not every edit requires setting the plugin the record was pulled from as a master file Genio. As a matter of fact, most don't.

3 Again, that was never the intent. You admitted that yourself. So, you brought it up because??? If that had been the intent, of course I would have simply created a new .esp.

4) Again, yes in most instances. As long as the .esp itself is not changed, there's absolutely nothing preventing me from DLing the updated assets, and replacing the .esp with my patched one. If the .esp is changed, then you'd have to make a new patch regardless if you used my method ( lol, I can't believe I typed this, as if people haven't been doing so for years w/o issue ) or created a new .esp.

5) Why would I want to? The patch is for me, and I use MO. Are you saying you can't use TESVEdit. and/or can't adjust your LO with NMM or Vortex? I have no idea what you are trying to convey here, but in the end, it's also irrelevant.

 

I gave my points above:

 

1) It works.

2) It efficient.

3) It accomplishes the goals of having the edits I want in my game and not increasing the .esp count without any negatives.

 

You've refuted neither of the first two, and honestly not the third with anything that isn't a long-winded diatribe that boils down to " so-and-so says " and/or " I don't like it ". And as I also pointed out; You can't.

 

 

Not, excuse me but the points 1 and 2 are inter-related and you know it. 

Is true that, some times, you not need include records from one ESP in the other ESP but others times is stricly obligatory made it. Ussing as example EFS + Warmaidens i create this screenshot:

Spoiler

 

If you compare this screenshot with the other screenshot i put in this post you can see that i patch the record Confidence whitout need put EFS as master but i can not patch the record Class whitout make EFSCompanions.esp a MASTER of Bijjin.

 

For one side that mean very clear that you can not disable EFS and play only with Bijins because you have create a direct hard dependencie from the two mods. As always, this is not a problem for you. Simply recover the security copy of Bijins, whitout yours changes and the hard dependency and play.

But only when you have this hard dependency you can be sure LOOT go to put the ESP's in that order and LOOT make it because the ESP's have a direct hard dependeny. Only in this case you can use LOOT.

 

If you not need copy a record from the other ESP, because by pure lucky you can make your patch ussing only vanilla records, when you run LOOT the order of the plugings can be changed, because not have direct hard dependency, and if (note the keyword) the order of the plugings generated by LOOT not match the order that you has put manualy your patch not works. In this case you can NOT use LOOT.

 

Aditionally, if you change records inside Bijins and the creator publish an update with changes in the ESP file you can not use the updated version whitout remake your patch. Not matter what changes make the creator. Any change force you to revise the ESP and you have two options:

Copy the changes that creator made inside your patched Bijin.

Use the new ESP from the creator and remake your entire patch.

 

A real patch only need be adjusted when the creator change one of the records included in the patch.

Any change in any other record not affect the good patch in any way.

 

Finally, if you not know how works others managers learn it. I have in the same machine, installed and working, NMM, MO1, MO2 and Vortex. I know very well the diferences.