wip Chaurus Life

[MadMansGun]

9 hours ago, Seijin8 said:

Its a good question.  I haven't figured that out yet, but there are enough references to look at that I should be able to work it out.  I'm kind of torn on it.  The Slavetats would be better in some ways (most notably not showing up on the throat and hands), but the glow is static and doesn't strobe at all, which is something I wanted to go for with the shader.

 

Ultimately, I probably will go with the Slavetat version once I figure that out (on the to-do list).

the deer from the dawnguard DLC have color changing glow effects, maybe you can somehow copy that.

[Seijin8]

7 hours ago, MadMansGun said:

the deer from the dawnguard DLC have color changing glow effects, maybe you can somehow copy that.

Interesting.  Looks like that is controlled by an animation subgraph that rotates through color states.  I haven't the foggiest idea how to manipulate that.  Time to learn me sumthin new.

 

EDIT: Still have no clue, and it seems almost all documentation for it is for Fallout 4.  FNIS can apparently do it, but then I'm wondering why you would use all that to control a glow effect?  At any rate, there doesn't seem to be much documentation on this applicable to Skyrim.

[Elvorana]

33 minutes ago, Seijin8 said:

Interesting.  Looks like that is controlled by an animation subgraph that rotates through color states.  I haven't the foggiest idea how to manipulate that.  Time to learn me sumthin new.

 

EDIT: Still have no clue, and it seems almost all documentation for it is for Fallout 4.  FNIS can apparently do it, but then I'm wondering why you would use all that to control a glow effect?  At any rate, there doesn't seem to be much documentation on this applicable to Skyrim.

try posting a question on the bethesda forums? maybe one of the devs can help out?

 

EDIT:

I asked a friend of mine who works over at Bethesda. They havent the foggiest clue, but they recommend popping into the CK and reverse engineering it.

[Seijin8]

6 minutes ago, Elvorana said:

try posting a question on the bethesda forums? maybe one of the devs can help out?

Maybe in the future.  I have enough on my plate right now as it is, and those are things that I either know how to do, or can figure out by reverse-engineering.  Right now I'm trying to map out all the next steps I want to take so I can get dummy properties into the scripts and maybe make the updates after next less likely to make the bugs stop doing their thing(s).

[Seijin8]

49 minutes ago, Elvorana said:

EDIT:

I asked a friend of mine who works over at Bethesda. They havent the foggiest clue, but they recommend popping into the CK and reverse engineering it.

The CK for Skyrim doesn't have a section for that.  Fallout does, not Skyrim.

[MadMansGun]

1 hour ago, Seijin8 said:

The CK for Skyrim doesn't have a section for that.  Fallout does, not Skyrim.

sometimes the info is cross compatible.

[Reesewow]

Actually learned a bit about how EC+ functions messing around with this mod that may be useful to some.

 

Essentially - the EC+ breeder faction does seem to calm chaurus long term.  The key in my game at least - this only happens to individual creatures, not to the faction as a whole.  So if you want a whole hive to accept your presences, it seems you'd need to engage each of them in something that triggers an EC+ impregnation (sex or tentacle spit attack).  For me Defeat worked just fine for this when I tested it in a small cell with two chaurus.

 

... until one molted into a reaper.  He was pretty cranky about that, but after a Defeat round he also ended up tame.

[Seijin8]

25 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

Actually learned a bit about how EC+ functions messing around with this mod that may be useful to some.

 

Essentially - the EC+ breeder faction does seem to calm chaurus long term.  The key in my game at least - this only happens to individual creatures, not to the faction as a whole.  So if you want a whole hive to accept your presences, it seems you'd need to engage each of them in something that triggers an EC+ impregnation (sex or tentacle spit attack).  For me Defeat worked just fine for this when I tested it in a small cell with two chaurus.

 

... until one molted into a reaper.  He was pretty cranky about that, but after a Defeat round he also ended up tame.

Yeah, the issues stem from the Factions.  EC+ adds a new faction to the relationship set, but because it modifies the faction directly, it isn't compatible with anything else that does that.  I can try adding in a check to make sure the factions get sorted right, regardless of load order.

 

Frankly, the faction system as a whole is a mess, but there isn't an alternative to it, so we have to work with what we have. 

 

EDIT/UPDATE: Made it so that the script will set zzEstrusChaurusBreederFaction and ChaurusFaction to be neutral.  This was already half done in EC+ with the breeder fac being neutral to chaurus, but they didn't see it that way.  Given the existence of the creature and predator factions on chaurus, and those being inherently hostile, I'm not sure if this will have an effect, but it doesn't hurt to try.

[Reesewow]

22 minutes ago, Seijin8 said:

Yeah, the issues stem from the Factions.  EC+ adds a new faction to the relationship set, but because it modifies the faction directly, it isn't compatible with anything else that does that.  I can try adding in a check to make sure the factions get sorted right, regardless of load order.

 

Frankly, the faction system as a whole is a mess, but there isn't an alternative to it, so we have to work with what we have. 

Does EC+ function that way?  I'm no expert mind, but glancing at my load order in TES5Edit seems to indicate it doesn't actually modify the vanilla faction directly (I do have one other mod that does that however, so it probably is for the best that it hasn't).

 

Instead it seems that the zzEstrusChaurusBreederFaction is neutral to the chaurus faction, and allied to itself.  I *think* that might mean the reason it only works on one chaurus at a time is that it applies the breeder faction to both the player and chaurus, turning them into allies.  Since the chaurus faction itself is not allied to the breeder faction, I assume that would mean that other chaurus would still be aggressive to the player, unless they themselves are put into the breeder faction.

 

 

Might mean that there is a possibility to patch EC+ to affect a whole cell by adding it to every chaurus alive in a cell when the player gets impregnated, or patch the chaurus faction itself directly to be non-aggressive towards the breeder faction.  Which is better might depend on if you want rival chaurus hives to be a thing or not.

 

Or I could be completely off base and understand just enough to be very wrong on this . 

[Seijin8]

12 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

Does EC+ function that way?  I'm no expert mind, but glancing at my load order in TES5Edit seems to indicate it doesn't actually modify the vanilla faction directly (I do have one other mod that does that however, so it probably is for the best that it hasn't).

 

Instead it seems that the zzEstrusChaurusBreederFaction is neutral to the chaurus faction, and allied to itself.  I *think* that might mean the reason it only works on one chaurus at a time is that it applies the breeder faction to both the player and chaurus, turning them into allies.  Since the chaurus faction itself is not allied to the breeder faction, I assume that would mean that other chaurus would still be aggressive to the player, unless they themselves are put into the breeder faction.

 

 

Might mean that there is a possibility to patch EC+ to affect a whole cell by adding it to every chaurus alive in a cell when the player gets impregnated, or patch the chaurus faction itself directly to be non-aggressive towards the breeder faction.  Which is better might depend on if you want rival chaurus hives to be a thing or not.

 

Or I could be completely off base and understand just enough to be very wrong on this . 

No, you're essentially right, and that's the problem, haha.

 

One chaurus impregnates, and it is fine with you after that, and may even defend you against non-chaurus threats, but that's it.  The hive as a whole doesn't care.  With vanilla behaviors, that is fine and all, but if trying to make the hive act cohesively, it doesn't make sense for them to attack a breeder.

 

The simplest answer is to just add the player to ChaurusFaction once they've been impregnated, maybe with some kind of system in place to monitor player behavior: if they become aggressive, they are to be subdued again.

 

The only issue with adding the player to Chaurus faction is that suddenly falmer and spiders and skeevers and some trolls are totally cool with you for no obvious reason.  Other issue is a mod like Wild World that changes guard behaviors towards factions will lead to town guards trying to kill you for no clear reason.

 

It is possible to make a new faction that makes the chaurus allied, but has no such ripple effect, but then the chaurus should defend the PC if they are subsequently attacked, and depending on what does the attacking, they may or may not do so.  It can create odd domino effects.  You're attacked by a spider, Reaper defends you, the spider being attacked triggers a falmer, and once it is involved, the chaurus aren't sure what to do since allies are fighting.  Same issues that cause friendly fire incidents between multi-follower mods is that there are only four faction states, and they don't make sense when in conflict.

 

The ideal (which I may tackle at a later date) would be for the hive to become solidly neutral towards a breeder.  By extension, anything attacking the breeder would be considered a potential threat to the hive, depending on what it was.  After a breeder has gained some favor with the hive, maybe it elevates to "friend" status, so the hive would actively protect the PC.  If the player is the Tyrant's bitch, then it sets as "ally" and the whole hive will jump to the defense.

 

One issue with the factions is that the combat toggles are on/off, while there should be a warn/threat layer that other NPCs can respond to.  Instead, you have the typical shit with the courier walking straight at the bear in the road, the bear giving its warning and the courier trucking along to his death.

 

It does no good to have granular faction levels if there is no granularity to the behavior.  If a chaurus could warn a spider off from the player, and the spider could actually consider this result and what it might mean for its survival, then we'd have a much more interesting system to work with.

 

In very limited fashion, this might be possible to generate: some quest that kicks in on crossing a warning threshold that checks the factions, relations, aggression and confidence of all NPCs involved and then makes the scene play out a certain way.  That could be difficult to set up, and functionally useless once a single modded faction enters the mix.  Tough to say, but it is something I have to tackle for the interaction layer, so I've been thinking on it a lot.

[Elvorana]

44 minutes ago, Seijin8 said:

No, you're essentially right, and that's the problem, haha.

 

One chaurus impregnates, and it is fine with you after that, and may even defend you against non-chaurus threats, but that's it.  The hive as a whole doesn't care.  With vanilla behaviors, that is fine and all, but if trying to make the hive act cohesively, it doesn't make sense for them to attack a breeder.

 

The simplest answer is to just add the player to ChaurusFaction once they've been impregnated, maybe with some kind of system in place to monitor player behavior: if they become aggressive, they are to be subdued again.

 

The only issue with adding the player to Chaurus faction is that suddenly falmer and spiders and skeevers and some trolls are totally cool with you for no obvious reason.  Other issue is a mod like Wild World that changes guard behaviors towards factions will lead to town guards trying to kill you for no clear reason.

 

It is possible to make a new faction that makes the chaurus allied, but has no such ripple effect, but then the chaurus should defend the PC if they are subsequently attacked, and depending on what does the attacking, they may or may not do so.  It can create odd domino effects.  You're attacked by a spider, Reaper defends you, the spider being attacked triggers a falmer, and once it is involved, the chaurus aren't sure what to do since allies are fighting.  Same issues that cause friendly fire incidents between multi-follower mods is that there are only four faction states, and they don't make sense when in conflict.

 

The ideal (which I may tackle at a later date) would be for the hive to become solidly neutral towards a breeder.  By extension, anything attacking the breeder would be considered a potential threat to the hive, depending on what it was.  After a breeder has gained some favor with the hive, maybe it elevates to "friend" status, so the hive would actively protect the PC.  If the player is the Tyrant's bitch, then it sets as "ally" and the whole hive will jump to the defense.

 

One issue with the factions is that the combat toggles are on/off, while there should be a warn/threat layer that other NPCs can respond to.  Instead, you have the typical shit with the courier walking straight at the bear in the road, the bear giving its warning and the courier trucking along to his death.

 

It does no good to have granular faction levels if there is no granularity to the behavior.  If a chaurus could warn a spider off from the player, and the spider could actually consider this result and what it might mean for its survival, then we'd have a much more interesting system to work with.

 

In very limited fashion, this might be possible to generate: some quest that kicks in on crossing a warning threshold that checks the factions, relations, aggression and confidence of all NPCs involved and then makes the scene play out a certain way.  That could be difficult to set up, and functionally useless once a single modded faction enters the mix.  Tough to say, but it is something I have to tackle for the interaction layer, so I've been thinking on it a lot.

maybe set up a "default" faction that the chaurus identify as hostile? I think the only time they wouldnt be anyway is if the new faction is geared towards your mod in which case they'll be patching it to integrate.

[Seijin8]

11 minutes ago, Elvorana said:

maybe set up a "default" faction that the chaurus identify as hostile? I think the only time they wouldnt be anyway is if the new faction is geared towards your mod in which case they'll be patching it to integrate.

Oh, I already have the inbuilt hostile faction triggers (needed that for hive wars later on).  The issue isn't getting them to fight (well, actually, that can be an issue too, but not in this case).  The issue is getting them to warn off a potential threat, and have the threat recognize the warning.  All that aggro radius behavior in the game ("Don't come any closer", wolves growling before attacking, etc) is a show for the player and the NPCs can't recognize it.  There doesn't appear to be a hook in the scripting, nor in the story event system.  This behavior appears to be tacked-on and disconnected from everything else.

 

Now, I *could* add a quest that triggers at certain predetermined distances from certain creatures in certain factions that then trips an alias with a special AI package that sends out a scripted event that changes everything.  The fact that a fucking Rube-Goldberg machine of code and script is needed to do what should be a single script line ("Event OnAggroWarning()) is evidence for just how shallow the entire NPC interaction system is in the game.

[Elvorana]

9 minutes ago, Seijin8 said:

Oh, I already have the inbuilt hostile faction triggers (needed that for hive wars later on).  The issue isn't getting them to fight (well, actually, that can be an issue too, but not in this case).  The issue is getting them to warn off a potential threat, and have the threat recognize the warning.  All that aggro radius behavior in the game ("Don't come any closer", wolves growling before attacking, etc) is a show for the player and the NPCs can't recognize it.  There doesn't appear to be a hook in the scripting, nor in the story event system.  This behavior appears to be tacked-on and disconnected from everything else.

 

Now, I *could* add a quest that triggers at certain predetermined distances from certain creatures in certain factions that then trips an alias with a special AI package that sends out a scripted event that changes everything.  The fact that a fucking Rube-Goldberg machine of code and script is needed to do what should be a single script line ("Event OnAggroWarning()) is evidence for just how shallow the entire NPC interaction system is in the game.

>.< ouch yeah i see what you mean. Almost sounds like there would need to be a whole other mod designed to work around that.

[Seijin8]

6 minutes ago, Elvorana said:

>.< ouch yeah i see what you mean. Almost sounds like there would need to be a whole other mod designed to work around that.

The fact that there isn't one already may be indication of just how ridiculously complex it would have to be to make such a thing.  There are a few mods for Fallout 4 that attempt things like this (in small ways anyway), and they invariably lead to conflicts with other actions.  I think it is a case where "fixing" one thing reveals a huge hole in another.  The whole interaction system is paper-thin, and adding levels to one part just makes the rest of it look worse.

 

Consider how much more interesting Serana and some mod-added followers are than just about anyone else in all of Skyrim.  In the case of Serana, it was merely having extra dialogue, speaking personally about things and having a couple behaviors that made her look less like a mannequin.  Of course, once you've seen that, it is natural to look at Lydia like "WTF?"

 

I really hope that Bethesda spends more time on this for Starfield.  Its the one area that IMO needs the most attention.

[Hadron-Gamma]

I just gotta say for making and planning an advanced hive mind mod you, sir, are a scholar(skyrim biologist?) and a gentleman! also I kinda had a hair brained idea some time after reading... doesn't matter ?, would you ever consider making a compact "personal" hive mod in which you contain the hive in your body and the chaurus use their nest (your body) for a food source, housing and breeding and there would be functions like if you are injured you'll "release" several drones to protect their nest and would possibly even count as a permanent quasi-pregnancy and maybe even tie ins to mods like mme for the food source part. well in any case this was just a outlandish brain fart of an idea but keep in mind would mostly be script with no meshes or maybe even no actors involved.

[Seijin8]

39 minutes ago, klick master said:

I just gotta say for making and planning an advanced hive mind mod you, sir, are a scholar(skyrim biologist?) and a gentleman! also I kinda had a hair brained idea some time after reading... doesn't matter ?, would you ever consider making a compact "personal" hive mod in which you contain the hive in your body and the chaurus use their nest (your body) for a food source, housing and breeding and there would be functions like if you are injured you'll "release" several drones to protect their nest and would possibly even count as a permanent quasi-pregnancy and maybe even tie ins to mods like mme for the food source part. well in any case this was just a outlandish brain fart of an idea but keep in mind would mostly be script with no meshes or maybe even no actors involved.

Thanks for the kind words and bravo on some out of the box thinking... which happens to mirror some thoughts I've had myself.

 

I did plan on an advanced "queen" tyrant doing basically this exact thing when moving to a new hive.  The effect would be using mostly EC+'s hatchlings (up until they grew too large, basically as they prepare to molt into nymphs), and some visual effects like the spriggan's fly swarm.  I do plan on this being a thing, though not initially something the player character could do (without dying).  I do plan on allowing for some extreme player character transformation possibilities though, providing I can get the game to cooperate (the limited interactions as vampire lords and werewolves demonstrate some of the problems that would come with this).

 

It is all a long way off though.  Thanks for the discussion.  Twas not a brainfart, you put some effort into thinking through how it might work.

[kilroywasalwayshere]

    This mod offers some awesome interactions between the PC and Falmer/Chaurus and I think it has potential to be one of the most exciting mods coming out for Skyrim at the moment, up there with Apotheosis.  Whilst I have very little modding experiences I was reading through some of the brainstormed ideas for this topic and thought I would try to throw some of my ideas out as well.

 

   As a start, each Falmer/Chaurus cave could be it's own nest, for example, Frostflow Lighthouse, Sightless pit, and Stillborn cave.  Each of these nests would could be it's own tribe, and thus it's own faction, laying the groundwork for tribal wars between these different locations, as well as laying the groundwork for different dynamics between each tribe. Frostflow is a Chaurus dominated location with a handful of Falmer, Sightless pit is primarily dominated by Falmer with few Chaurus and some spiders and skeever, Stillborn cave has a balanced population, but it's small overall.  How the Falmer and Chaurus should interact with one another is an interesting problem.  I can't think of any reference that outlines WHY the Chaurus and Falmer are "allies", they are most likely in a mutualistic or Commensalism relationship.  Meaning the Falmer gain a source of building material (Chitan) as well as mutual protection, while the Chaurus gain protection and... food? partnership?  In Frostflow, the Chaurus primarily live deeper in the caves while the Falmer are closer to the surface, perhaps this is out of fear of the larger Chaurus population overtaking them?  In regards to player interaction, if the player is breeding a large population of Chaurus and breeding stronger Chaurus fighters, the Falmer might see this as a benefit, at first, but maybe this could result in a civil war or displacment of the Falmer as they become afraid of the Chaurus feeding on them in favor of their new pet (the player).  In locations like Sightless pit, the Falmer would most likely win this war, without player interaction, but in Frostflow the Chaurus would wipe out the Falmer with ease, Stillborn cave is 50/50, and a bit of an underdog tribe overall, which could be interesting for inter tribal warfare. 

 

   In TESIV: Oblivion's Goblin tribes had a hierarchy topped by a Goblin Shaman  with a special staff.  There was an interaction where the player could assassinate the Shaman and plant his staff in another Goblin tribes cave to incite a tribe war, while this mechanic barely worked in Oblivion, it could be an interesting analogy for us.  Another interesting analogy on this topic is Things in the Dark, by Delzaron. In TID, Del built a Falmer city called Ibn that had a massive tunnel network that connected to most Falmer locations in Skyrim and could be used to immersivly traverse Skyrim via the underground.  A problem that may have occurred due to this is that the quest marker tracker utterly broke and usually pointed to one location rather than anywhere useful, if this is an isolated bug or because of the tunnels, I'm unsure.  However, if a Chaurus nest were to become strong enough, and smart enough, to burrow into another tribe and surprise attack them, thus expanding their domain it could make for a very exciting strategic game play feature for the player by allowing them to traverse Skyrim quickly and safely in an immersive way, something that would most certainly need to be earned.

 

   When discussing the Chaurus hierarchy, a Chaurus Queen was brought up a few times.  I think the most interesting implementation of a Queen would be to use either the PC or another humanoid npc.  My reasoning for this is that it appears that any Chaurus can lay eggs, but in the vanilla game those eggs just for make pretty lights.  Chaurus eggs needing a host to further develop supports the idea that the Chaurus need a "pet", such as the Falmer, to efficiently support their reproduction cycle.  In the mod, SD+, there is a quest arch in which the PC can become a Spriggan by hosting 3 of their seedlings, becoming closer and closer to Kyne.  Now, in my experience, mods that allow the PC to transform into animals or creatures are usually pretty disappointing in the end, and SD+ is no exception.  So avoiding the "transformation" arch would be my advise, however, it is still possible to transform the PC via buffs/debuffs as well as morphs and shaders to leave both game play and visual consequences for the player, a Chaurus skinned werewolf model could also be interesting and mostly stable as well.  First, however, how does the PC become queen?  In Frostflow, there is an already established Chaurus hierarchy, coming with it's prespawned Tyrant.  In order to become queen, the player should need to take a Chaurus, perhaps it's a Nymph or Worker, or even one of the PC's own offspring, and nurture it into a Tyrant, establishing strong ties to it throughout its development so that the new Tyrant sees the PC as an invaluable asset to the tribe and even looks to it for guidance.  This journey should be similar to a pawn crossing the board in a game of chess to become a queen.  To help support this dynamic, the player breeding with a Chaurus could do 2 things.  Firstly, it would raise it's vigor, up to a certain limit for balancing reasons, similar to Untamed where having sex with a creature strengthens the creature, this would improve the chances of the Chaurus winning in a duel against another Chaurus and thus gaining even more experience.  Higher tier Chaurus could also have additional vigor points to acquire further raising the strength level of high level Chaurus, whether or not vigor should decline over time is a matter of balancing and would need experimenting.  Secondly, relationship between the PC and the Chaurus needs to be tracked somehow, this could be done using the same feature, vigor.  If a Chaurus has a vigor 4/4, it means it has had sex with the player 4 times and benefited from it in some way, thus the Chaurus will see the PC as a valuable asset.  Once the PC has bred a Tyrant, the PC becomes queen of that tribe, essentially the queen of the Tyrant and thus benefiting from the Tyrants "Kings Guard" feature, wherein Chaurus Reapers who put up good duel against the Tyrant can become bodyguards of sorts to filter out weaker contenders.  The queen could use these "Kings Guard" as companions on their journeys.  A queen could also mark tunnels for expansion, influencing the workers to expand towards another tribe to take them over.  Finally, a single PC queen cannot reasonably be expected to breed a Chaurus army capable of overtaking the surface world by herself, she will need more breeders.  A queen could mark bandit locations for attack, either via surface or tunneling depending on the complication of expanding the underworld.  In the aftermath the females of that bandit location would be captured to be put in Chaurus Cocoons to breed additional Chaurus, this will avoid over complicating npc movement while still benefiting from over world expeditions.  Let's say, the PC markes Halted Streams Camp for attack, the area will be scanned before or during the battle to calculate how many females/males there are in the area, and after everyone is "dead" the females will add to the breeding power of the Chaurus empire, while the males will add to it's food supply.  both of these factors could act as a background calculation as to how populated your Chaurus empire is, breeding power improving growth rate, and food reducing decline rate to populate your under empire, food will act as a counterbalance to population, so more population requires more food.  whether or not capturing Halted Streams Camp as a Chaurus outpost is viable is a matter for experiment, it would be neat to see the area covered in eggs and guarded by the queens minions though .  Game play features for a queen could also have a dynamic decision, for example, a leader centric queen will focus on acquiring new breeding/food sources for their empire whilst not breeding with the Chaurus herself as often, thus recovering from her time breeding her Tyrant and thus becoming more combat ready, but a breading centric queen determined to tend to her army herself will have weak combat capabilities, but a stronger army to field.  Fielding a Chaurus army could work a few different ways, the aforementioned Kings Guard could act like companions for the Queen, but would be hostile in civilized places, a queen might also be able to use a power to spawn several Chaurus in an area depending upon the Chaurus activity in the area and the strength of her tribe overall.  

 

   Now, let's tackle a strategy for destroying a Chaurus nest from within.  Frostflow has a shitload of Chaurus and the PC couldn't fight them all and gets captured.  However, she chooses to keep fighting her captures via 2 ways, sabotaging her offspring, and inciting infighting.  Chaurus Hunters are used as "parasite carriers" as well as population control for the nest.  The PC could breed with a Hunter to poison herself, and thus any other eggs she's carrying, ensuring they never hatch.  She can also breed stronger and weaker Reapers throughout the nest to cause close battles and fatalities throughout the nest, lowering the population overall.  After the nest is sufficiently weakened the player will be able to escape their harrowing experience and begin her journey to recovery in the over world as she purges the toxins from her body... somehow.  There are further dynamics that could be added to this, but I'm keeping it simple for the meanwhile. 

 

   Implementing a solid capture system for the Falmer/Chaurus to hold the PC is another interesting challenge.  In SD+, there are several features that help hold the player, but nothing that really ensures they can't escape.  A one-way door or perhaps door guard security could be built into the nests dynamics to prevent player escape.  Additionally, the PC would be weakened by the breeding and or other toxins brought by the Falmer or even bound by restraints.  It shouldn't be impossible for the PC to escape, but very difficult and requiring a good strategy, I wonder if the author of SD+ could be of any help here... 

 

   The PC's return to civilization.. If the PC is simply an escaping captive, then that's fine, a few morph's here and there, a couple of bruises, an egg or 30, it's whatever.  But a PC queen on the other hand...  Making it so the PC could conquer entire cities and make them submit to your empire, or at least become vassiles of it, may be to ambitious of an addition.  Yet, it should still be a challenge for a queen to walk into Solitude with her bugs, eggs, and Chitan bikini in tow.  Perhaps a combination of Illusion and Alteration magics could be used to create a temporary disguise, or brewing a potion using a multitude of underground resources as well as some over world sacrifices.  Maybe a vassal or minion NPC could be used for the player to temporarily control to walk into a city, talk to people and acquire quests and then return to the empire to assume control of your PC queen once again.  There are many interesting solutions to this problem. 

 

   Finally, the over world should be afraid of an active under empire raiding it.  To add an interesting dynamic to Falmer/Chaurus life, adventurers or different guilds expendable npc's could attack the nest in varying numbers at random times to spice up life in the underworld as well as add a constant threat to your nests.  For players looking to escape this could present an opportunity in which she's weakened the nest to a point the raiders can finish it off and "save" her.  Whilst player queens will need to make plans for this event to prevent casualties, perhaps by setting traps, empowering troops, or spawning a shit load of them to stem the tide.  Overall, raids would function similar to Werewolf hunters or Dragon attacks in Moonlight Tales or Deadly Dragons.

 

   For now at least, I believe this concludes my ideas on the subject.  I hope this wasn't intrusive or overbearing in some way, and that it was cohesive in some way.  If nothing else, I hope my analogies to other mods gives you more ideas.  I'm very excited for what you will do with this project and hope it becomes a permanant part of my load order  

 

 

[Seijin8]

54 minutes ago, kilroywasalwayshere said:

For now at least, I believe this concludes my ideas on the subject.  I hope this wasn't intrusive or overbearing in some way, and that it was cohesive in some way.

kilroywasalwayshere, color me impressed.  Your thoughts here are very well articulated and reasoned, and unfortunately I am FAR too tired right now to give them the attention and verbose reply they deserve.  Will get back to you in 12-15 hours or so when I've had some sleep and time to better digest the contents.

 

I will leave a couple thoughts:

• The scale of potential takeover you are considering is far beyond what I'd thought to attempt.  On the other hand, I know just the framework that could be used for it: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/76803.  I don't know that I will pursue a full world takeover (see below), but it wouldn't be too hard to at least put some framework there to attempt it.
• (While I would like to enable smaller area takeovers, those are a step toward another process.)
• The inter-hive dynamics you referred to are very much where I'd like to go with this, but laying the groundwork on that requires determining some things that lore simply doesn't tell us.
• Just how individual is each hive?  What would it consider viable leadership?  How takeovers might be achieved leads to a lot of questions that lore doesn't seem well-equipped to answer.
• Using two of your example hives: Sightless Pit and Frostflow (which is the most developed chaurus-centered hive in the game).  In the event that Frostflow's hive invaded Sightless Pit, what would the chaurus in Sightless Pit do?  They have no proper leader (Tyrant) of their own.  Would they stick by their falmer allies?  That's the simplest option -- but to me also the least interesting one -- or would the chaurus instantly recognize the Frostflow Tyrant's authority and turn on their former allies?  Would some turn and others not?  (Individuals might have a loyalty "rating", but then how individual should any one member of a functionally eusocial structure be?  Maybe the leadership/competitor castes are able to pursue more diverse agendas and the workers just follow along?  If so, how do these agendas evolve?  What drives them if not individual desires?  Where does the will of the hive ultimately come from?  Is it reactionary or is there an intent; Instinctual or... something else?  As is often the case in sci-fi, does the continued evolution of the "mindless" hive become the outgrowth of an intelligence?)
• Returning to the hive battle, my preferred answer is that the chaurus are ultimately going to band together with the strongest chaurus leader.  That is the option I like the best in theory, but in practice it leaves some major questions.  If we establish that the chaurus are willing to follow their own over any other authority or force, then how does the player hold any meaningful place in the hive?  Your idea of raising a tyrant from birth to ascendancy (what I've internally called the "Kingmaker" playstyle) seems to forge the needed bond but, many other Tyrants or Reapers in falmer-dominated hives have presumably shared a similar bond with a non-chaurus
• (Although, maybe the falmer intentionally do not allow such bonds to form, and if so is there a very good reason beyond issues of internal control?  Do they know something the player doesn't?)
• If we determine the mere presence of a Tyrant swings that balance against the falmer, there is no reason to believe the player would fare any better.
• For asserting player control, we can always pull the "Dragonborn" card, but I pretty much never play as Dragonborn.  Been there, done that, next story, please.  So is the player special in some way?  (The "chosen one" narrative is deeply freakin' old at this point.)
• Instead, I'd rather head into Lovecraftian territory: there are things you just don't do, not because you can't, but because you shouldn't.  That is ultimately where I'd like to take this in the long run, both because it forges a new and unique story path, and because it allows me to completely dodge all the difficulties inherent with a proper over-world takeover that would require thousands of hours of AI work and would basically break any and all other quest options for the game.
• Each option the player receives on deepening their connection to the hive ought to have the look and feel of the red button, just waiting to be pressed, and the player/character should have real, serious reservations about doing so.

Anyway, must get some rest.  Looking forward to continuing on this discussion (and getting an update to the mods pushed out this weekend).

 

Thanks again for the well-considered thoughts.

[Reesewow]

1 hour ago, Seijin8 said:

 

• Using two of your example hives: Sightless Pit and Frostflow (which is the most developed chaurus-centered hive in the game).  In the event that Frostflow's hive invaded Sightless Pit, what would the chaurus in Sightless Pit do?  They have no proper leader (Tyrant) of their own.  Would they stick by their falmer allies?  That's the simplest option -- but to me also the least interesting one -- or would the chaurus instantly recognize the Frostflow Tyrant's authority and turn on their former allies?  Would some turn and others not?  (Individuals might have a loyalty "rating", but then how individual should any one member of a functionally eusocial structure be?  Maybe the leadership/competitor castes are able to pursue more diverse agendas and the workers just follow along?  If so, how do these agendas evolve?  What drives them if not individual desires?  Where does the will of the hive ultimately come from?  Is it reactionary or is there an intent; Instinctual or... something else?  As is often the case in sci-fi, does the continued evolution of the "mindless" hive become the outgrowth of an intelligence?)

I think Frostflow might be an interesting example of how the falmer/chaurus dynamics could work.  In that hive, the falmer have a pretty light presence, and only at the very top of the hive with the smaller chaurus.  

 

Below however - is exclusively chaurus territory, populated by all forms of chaurus and ruled by a matured Tyrant (and even in the base game at reasonable levels, one of the rare Reapers).

 

So perhaps Frostflow is an example where the falmer control was too weak, and the hive was allowed to mature beyond their control under a Tyrant.  The falmer are still tolerated, but they are not controlling the chaurus like they do in some of the dwemer ruins, where a few individuals are kept corralled in pens.

 

As for the player's "bond" with the chaurus (and a developing Tyrant specifically), perhaps it could be her status as an important breeder that lends her that power over time.  The Falmer do not act as breeders themselves despite having females (unless you decided to add this), and it could be that the falmer only provide the chaurus with breeders on a controlled basis and dispose of them if trouble starts brewing. 

 

So a possible player interaction could be that if she reaches a certain level of favor in the hive, the falmer turn on her as a threat to their control.  This could be a crisis point in the development of the hive, where the player needs to be ready for the event or they/their brood will be killed.

 

Always fun to just do mass brainstorming of a budding mod - obviously everything here is just ideas for the pile of "might be interesting".  Lots of groundwork to set before lofty stuff like what we are brainstorming can exist, best of luck!

 

[General Neondaze]

I have followed this conversation with interest. I haven't had a chance to try the mod yet as currently away from my pc.

 

With regards to tunnels/tunneling and city interaction, what about linking into city sewers. This would give access to streets and other entrances to buildings. The buildings could then be used as staging points for future city infestation. 

 

Regarding the pc walking around cities, a simple solution would be to implement some kind of hypnotic effect. This could range limited and the strength/time duration of hypnosis dependant on transformation stage. Hypnotised npcs could be shown by use of an aura. Depth of colour of the aura could be used to show the strength of the hypnosis on npcs thus allowing the introduction of a stealth mechanic to avoid lightly hypnotised npcs. Using a hypnosis could also allow for certain npcs not to affected, such as those practised in the magical arts.

 

Regarding hive locations and current encounters with Falmer, the idea of expanding hives into Dwemer ruins could be a possibity. As to what the Falmer know about the Chaurus, perhaps the reason for no queen is that the Falmer are quick at destroying potential queens. The pc being a hybrid would give her and her hive an advantage over the Falmer that hasn't previously existed. 

 

It is worth considering that Chaurus the pc 'breeds' would be the most loyal to her within the hive. 

 

I hope I haven't repeated ideas already in the thread (I did read it all, so apologies if I have). I also hope that I haven't written a huge brainfart. ?

[sshar22]

Lets see if I can chime in here too  

 

"de rerum naturae chaurus" :

To me the chaurus look like a male harem structure, 

If we look at female hive structure like ants and bees we will see that only the alpha female is fertile and lays eggs, all the other are sterile and the males are discarded as soon as they have fertilised the queen.

Chauruses seem all fertile, looking at the huge pile of eggs we see

So, they might work like some fishes do, the alpha male will spread his semen onto the egg piles to make them fertile. Secondary males can be inhibited by pheromones, driven away or killed by strength or even not develop until the alpha is dead or too old 

the Falmers might have the know how to control or inhibit the males (from caging them to giving them some type of food to control them directly or indirectly or even magic)

 

On the intelligence /smartness of the chaurus we can go in both direction

either dumb and the falmer have somehow masked themselves as chaurus like some beetles do by using the pheromones of the bees or ants to crawl undisturbed in their hives

or smart enough to meld an artificial symbiosis with the falmer

 

On the player interaction

barring the creation of a highly dynamic environment, that might be highly difficult/problematic/prone to all sort of quirks with this game engine.

one can go with a strong story/quest driven chain of events, which if well written can be awesome but then creates the replayability fatigue

or one may go with a more sandbox like structure, hive-management, player-home, castle-defence with some radiant quests and very loose and basic story that can leave the player to choose and roleplay his/her interaction

 

On the player role

I am personally not a fan of becoming the leader or dominating a hive (already vanilla throws at us the leadership of companions, thieves, assassins and mages)

If the chaurus are considered smart,

the player might free a male and help it fund a hive (gratitude) (links to hive management / player home)

or be captured and brainwashed (pheromones, drugs, innate magic) to believe to be part of the hive (links to radiant quest and castle defence)

 

If they are considered dumb 

the player might be hired by someone (possibly a nefarious person) to fetch fertile eggs and then be involved voluntarily (or not ? ) in creating and evolving a hive.

or he/she might have a strong magic affinity with the chaurus and a group (mage/forsworn/druid) experiments on the PC, transforming into a hybrid (SD+ spriggan armor comes to mind)

 

those are a few things that popped in my mind

I hope they don't qualify as brainfarts 

 

Cheers

[kilroywasalwayshere]

   Thank you for the reply, I considered the idea of implementing Lovecraftian themes into the background of the mod, but first, I explored the majority of the Falmer infested areas of Skyrim and produced this list: 

 

Shimmermist: 2/3 Chaurus, Falmer Leader
Frostflow: Predominant Chaurus, Chaurus Leader
Stillborn Cave: 50/50 no Leader 
Sightless Pit: predominant Falmer, Falmer Leader, 2 Chaurus, Snow Elf Temple
Raldbthar: predominant Falmer, Dwarven Leader, 2 Chaurus, Blackreach
Irkngthand: predominant Falmer, Old Chaurus signs, Falmer Worship, Thieves Guild
Mzinchaleft: predominant Falmer, 2 Chaurus, Blackreach
Alftand: predominant Falmer, Blackreach
Lost Echo Cave: 1/4 Chaurus, good hive, Falmer Leader
Gloomreach: 1/5 Chaurus, good hive, Falmer leader
Chillwind Depths: 1/4 Chaurus, Feral Falmer, moderate hive
Duskglow Crevice: moderate hive, Falmer and Chaurus leaders, Nordic Ruins
Darkwater pass: 50/50 good hive, 
Torvald's Cave: 0 Chaurus, eggs present
Mzulft: very high Chaurus, very little signs of breeding or breeding sites, Mages guild quest
Kagrenzel: no Chaurus, no eggs, doens't count
Nchuand-Zel: no Chaurus, no eggs, good spawning ground, quest, inside Markarth

 

   From these explorations I sorted the dungeons into catagories and even thought of a few special dynamics to go along with them, making each tribe/nest slightly unique.

 

Snow Elf

   Sightless Pit: very low Chaurus population, large Falmer population, additional creatures intermixed with Falmer, Snow Elf temple present

   Irkngthand: low Chaurus population, mostly Hunter pods and Reapers showing that the Chaurus here appear older and breeding activity appears low, part of thieves guild questline, reaching this place early could break questline.

   Disclaimer: I didn't explore areas added by Dawnguard.

   Forgotten Vale: large Falmer population, steady Chaurus population and good breeding grounds present. part of a questline and disconnected from Skyrim.

The Old Kingdom

   Raldbthar: low Chaurus and spawning, large Falmer population, leads into Blackreach.

   Mzinchaleft: low Chaurus and spawning, large Falmer population, leads into Blackreach.

   Alftand: low Chaurus and spawning, large Falmer population, leads into Blackreach.

   Blackreach: all roads lead to here and share common themes. moderate Chaurus population, large Falmer population

Falmer Tribes

   Shimmermist cave: smallest Falmer cave, split population

   Frostflow Lighthouse: very low Falmer population, very large Chaurus population and ideal breeding ground

   Lost Echo Cave: low Chaurus population and poor breading ground, but well located for hunting food

   Gloomreach: moderate Chaurus population with decent spawning grounds

   Chillwind Depths: good spawning ground, with Immersive Creatures the Falmer here were all Feral with vampiric attributes. 

   Duskglow Crevice: moderate Chaurus population, poor breeding grounds, Falmer leader here has a Chaurus Reaper pet

   Darkwater Pass: 50/50 hive with good spawning grounds and larger overall population than Shimmermist

Falmer Expeditions 

   Torvald's Cave: no Chaurus present, but eggs present, possible a newly developing hive

   Kagrenzel: dungeon has a big drop... that is all

   Nchuand-Zel: no Chaurus or Chaurus eggs present, good spawning ground available, located within Markarth, part of side quest

   Mzulft: high Chaurus population, poor breeding, part of Mages guild quest

 

   A pattern I noticed while exploring these locations is that Chaurus prefer shallow water for their eggs and generally don't go anywhere else unless they have to, so I categorized breeding viability based on that to be more true to the lore. I also noticed certain areas were better for hunting prey based on their surrounding than others, but I only noted one because it stuck out more than the others. Additionally, I drew lines through areas I thought shouldn't be expanded into due to quest lines and potentially game breaking bugs, Nchuand-Zel is part of a quest line, however, the area is heavily populated by Falmer but no Chaurus, and the quest is to activate the Dwemer security and wipe them out, so it is actually wiser to complete this quest and then move into the area which is well suited for Chaurus breeding, but poorly suited for hunting unless you want to go through Markarth. I also marked out Forgotten Vale because it is separate from Skyrim, however, this area is sacred to the Falmer, which makes the idea of invading that area with a massive army of Chaurus to wipe them out very appealing. 

 

   Now, lovecraft time... You asked whether the Chaurus hive would act out of instinct or for something greater.  I believe the most interesting answer is both.  Initially, when the PC is captured and forced to breed with the Chaurus and building up her supper Tyrant it would all appear to be instinct, because it is, for the most part.  However, as the tribe grows in strength (numbers and Tyrant level, and maybe even number of Tyrants) Chaurus workers will begin to uncover tunnels that, to the player, don't appear to lead to anywhere but new areas with interesting assets for their hive. But as they dig deeper, and the PC explores deeper, the PC unlocks strange powers that give her more options when expanding her hive, such as brainwashing a bandit to use as a human guard in her tunnels, or maybe even an emissary to control so she can "go inside" cities for quests. However, the Falmer once discovered something just like this, in the Kingdom of Blackreach, which tunnels over nearly a third of Skyrim. Yet, in all of that there are barely any Chaurus, except within Blackreach itself.  Perhaps, as her workers dig deeper into the dark, the PC may become involved with the powers behind these now hive minded creatures she once controlled, forced to choose between servitude to these forces or to escape and unmake her empire before all of Skyrim is overtaken.

 

   I know that wasn't my best work, but it's a general idea of how you can justify the PC's control over Chaurus after she's proven herself to the hive.  She's a valuable asset in strengthening the tribe enough to reconnect with their central intelligence and once they are connected the intelligence tricks the PC into further expanding the hive so that the hive mind is so strong that when she is confronted she almost cannot refuse their demands and survive. Now, as to whom the Chaurus respect while they are still in their tribal instinctual mode, disconnected from their higher intelligence, could vary from tribe to tribe.  In the Old Kingdom and Snow Elf regions, Chaurus will fight with their Falmer masters to the death, simply because they have been so out numbered and corralled their whole lives they are essentially domesticated, like dogs.  Lost Echo Caves would have a loyal Chaurus population for similar reasons, Chillwind would have a loyal population but only due to the vampiric control of their masters, this area could offer a unique breed of Chaurus once captured, and Duskglow would have a loyal population as well due to the relationship between the Falmer leader and the Chaurus leader, essentially a Falmer queen to oppose the PC.  Besides these locations I believe, once incited, the Chaurus will either betray or stay loyal at random given certain factors. 

   

   A problem I noticed while exploring all of these locations is a significant lack of Chaurus all together. The population of these areas are all to sparce to truly build the hive dynamics with more than 3 Chaurus, so additional Falmer/Chaurus should be spawned based on their ratios to allow for better use of the mods features. I also encountered a bug where Hunter Fledglings are spawning with no textures, however, if I spawn one from the base game they do have textures, so I think the mod spawned Hunters aren't getting their textures correctly. 
 

   A couple of extra notes I forgot earlier: one SD+'s Spriggan armor growth/becoming one with Kyne could be mimiced here but using Falmer Bikini armor, I can't take full credit for that one anymore because sshar22 caught on to it before I remembered it. Second, I was thinking of a dichotomy between Chaurus Hunter and normal Chaurus cum effects. Both should be a hindrance at first, mostly encumbrance so the PC can't escape so easily, but while the Hunter poisons the PC and prevents eggs from hatching and ultimately weakens the PC until cured, normal Chaurus will have a slightly beneficial effect that will improve combat abilities, but only once the PC becomes a queen and chooses to refrain from constant breeding in favor of embracing those combat abilities, and losing some influence over her troops particularly when the Central Intelligence is strong enough to rebel from the PC and act autonomously. 

 

   So to summarize my ideas for the development of the PC from captured victim to their final destination... PC is captured and forced to breed with the Chaurus, she has the option to selectively breed to weaken the hive or strengthen it, or perhaps be forced into one or the other by the Falmer.  During this process the hive will be attacked at random by varing guilds and/or marauders seeking to purge the threat from the area.  Once the player breeds a Tyrant, she will become a queen and gain certain luxuries within the hive, such as bodyguards to follow her around and the power to make future plans for the hive.  Among these plans are the power to dig into another hive and expand the queens domain, the queen can also launch strikes on the surface to gather food and slaves.  as the hive grows in strength and numbers the hive will reconnect with its long lost central intelligence who empowers the queen to have additional control over the hive, a reward for her service.  The queen will happily and ignorantly use these powers to further expand the hive until it is so strong that the central intelligence no longer believes it needs the queen and demands she submit to it's rule or be devoured.  At this point, depending upon the players decisions throughout the ordeal, she may choose to submit to the power at which point she will begin to adopt additional Chaurus like features, assets used from Falmer Bikini armor, she may rebel alone, or she may incite a civil war with the power by having a strong enough support within the hive attained through attentive breeding within the hive.  The "rebel alone" option may seem suicidal, but this is following the "selfish queen" route wherein she uses the benefits from the Chaurus breeding's positive effects, strengthening her combat abilities and poison resistance.  This way, the Lovecraftian themes sneak into the story in a subtle yet convincing way and all three conclusions have profound outcomes for both the player and Skyrim itself as 2 options leave leave a queen with an army of Chaurus, and the third option leaves a powerful queen with no army, perhaps with her new knowledge she will find a new hive and begin again, but with caution in mind.  And the reason why the Falmer try to suppress the Tyrants from growing?  Likely because they are afraid that the hive will reach it's central intelligence and take it's minions back, wiping the Falmer out.  The Old Kingdom tried to use the Chaurus to great effect, establishing Blackreach and its connections over 1/3 of Skyrim, but they have sense suppressed the Chaurus out of fear, and Blackreach consequentially feels empty under its current leadership.  The player queen leading massive battles to take Blackreach and the Forgotten Vale to finish off the Falmer could both be interesting scenarios that don't change Skyrim too much.  A scripted battle could take place to "vassilize" a city in order for Chaurus and the queen to roam freely, but again, that is a bit on the ambitious side, and having overly profound effects on the game, to the point where the mod rules the play through, can be detrimental to the mods usability, like Slaverun, for example.  Expanding the under empire into non-Chaurus areas and building permanent hives sounds exceptionally fun, especially when you look at Duskglow, a Falmer hive built in a Nordic Ruin, but testing would be required to see if that is actually viable.  Attacks on the over world and underworld expansion between Chaurus lairs and additional underground areas may be the more reasonable approach. I can think of a few different ways the PC can summon a Chaurus swarm in the over world to show just how powerful her tribe is and utilize it throughout the play through.  One is using Arcanum, a spell mod that add the Firestorm ability from Dark Souls, substitute Fire with Chaurus burrowing out of the ground.  Another way is using arrows tipped with pheromone that can be used to spawn minor attacks at a distance.  Combine these with a retinue of Queen's Guard Reapers and some Chaurus Bikini armor and you've got yourself and utterly unique and immersive play through.  Also the ability to quickly, safely, and immersivey traverse Skyrim via the underground. 

[sshar22]

quick note on the population topic, or the lack of thereof 

vanilla skyrim :

AI max number of actors = 20

It can be tweaked (wrye bash anyone?) but it will stress the engine and the stability, so careful with it

 

 

[Seijin8]

I want to respond to all of this ASAP, but first with the bug report:

6 hours ago, kilroywasalwayshere said:

I also encountered a bug where Hunter Fledglings are spawning with no textures, however, if I spawn one from the base game they do have textures, so I think the mod spawned Hunters aren't getting their textures correctly.

Can confirm that I didn't package those.

 

Will be in the next update (sometime tonight/early tomorrow).  In my defense, trying to segregate the mod into chunks that did and did not have permissions made this more challenging than it should've been.  Now that all the permissions I've been waiting on have come through, it shouldn't be an issue again.

 

(Which is not to say that I won't screw it up again, merely that I will need a different excuse )

[Reesewow]

34 minutes ago, Seijin8 said:

Now that all the permissions I've been waiting on have come through, it shouldn't be an issue again.

Exciting news there - looking forward to seeing what the "real" version of the mod looks like.