CTD on New Game by Excesive Animations... EXPLICATION

[GenioMaestro]

This is a common problem that we carry from time ago and a lot of players are suffer it. But WHY happend.

 

First, i quote me with a post from the past week:

Spoiler

Normally, the support people and I say that the problem of CTD when click New Game is caused because the game can not manage all the info from Animations plus mod's but i think now this is NOT CORRECT.

I use NMM and normal Fnis 7.4.5, i never use the XXL version, and have now 13095 animations in FNIS.

This week i download and install Beyond Skyrim - Bruma and Rigmor of Cyrodiil.

As you can see in the files tab are 2.4GB + 2.0GB of aditional content for the game and, of course, I think "my game can not start" but i not have any problem. I can start a New Game and load any save of my current play started 2 months ago. I have player level 93 and 22mb of savegame.

 

Teorically, the problem of CTD when click New Game is caused by the number of object, specially scripts, but think a bit... how many new objects can i have in 4.4Gb of new content??? A lot, of course... And how many new script??? Near 4k + 1k = 5000 new scripts... and cero problems....

 

Then, i force my game a bit more and reactivate some big mod's that i have disabled, like 3Dnpc's = 2Gb, Proyect AHO = 0.5Gb and OBIS = 0.5g, addiding another 3gb of content and, of course, 6836 script from 3DNPC with the same result.. cero problems...

 

I run FNIS again for be sure none of this mod's have animations that must be procesed with FNIS and my animation count is the same:

 9291 animations for 37 mods successfully included (character).
 3804 animations for 11 mods and 43 creatures successfully included..

13095 total animations.

 

For all of this, i think the problem is NOT related to the content of the mods or the number of scripts.

Must be a problem in the FNIS generation, i'm sure @Fore say "imposible" but look my test.

Any can made a test like mine... is easy... have you a lot of animations??? Add some big mod's with a lot of script and see if you have problems.

 

I extend this test to stupid limits and download and install the most big mod's that i found in nexus ordering it by File Size and add to my game the following:

Spoiler

Aether Suite NPCs 3.3 gb

Tamriel Adventures Morrowind (Demo) 2.8 gb

The Shire 2.5 gb

Legacy of the Dragonborn 2.1 gb

Rigmor of Bruma 827mb -> 1 gb

VIGILANT 570mb ->0.5 gb

Summerset Isle 1.1 gb

 

All of this sum 13.3 gigabytes of new content and thousand of new script and not give me any problem.

My animations are the same, 13095, and my game start without any problem and load any old save.

 

Based on this test i can CONFIRM that the problem of CTD on New Game have none relation to the mod's installed.

 

--------------------------------------

Next Step:

 

I up my animations to the maximun ussing NORMAL FNIS 7.4.5, i never use XXL version and addiding some animations from FuniBiznes i up my count to 13657. If i add 23 animations more fnis say "Too many animations" and not generate the files. Then, i think is really too near to the maximun limit. And of course, my game start with 7 new big mod's and load any save without problems..

 9636 animations for 39 mods successfully included (character).
 4021 animations for 12 mods and 43 creatures successfully included..

13657 total animations

 

While addiding animation and making test with NMM i get CTD on New Game but ONLY 1 TIME and with less animations and simply running Fnis again the CTD on New Game disapear.

Then, i not discard a problem in Fnis, maybe caused by a temporaly file or any bad join file.

 

------------------------------

 

The real big problem: MOD ORGANIZER

 

I use NMM as my main manager and only have MO 1.3.11 for make test and give support.

I have near nothing instaled with MO excep some tools like CrashFixes, ReSaver and Fnis.

Then, MO must read all the files from the game data directory except the mod's installed in MO.

 

When i run FNIS from MO i start getting a lot of extrange errors.

I'm not expert in MO but i'm a computer professional and developer and i know how must work the programs.

And is NOT NORMAL get errors like "Can't create file ...", "Can't acces to file ...", "Behavior file xxx not exist", "Can't read Behavior file xxx" and others and after run FNIS from MO 5 consecutive times i start cleaning files.

 

I delete my FNIS_OUT and clear my Overwrite folder and all the problems disappear.

I not know if this is normal with MO but this things must not happend and can be the main cause of all the problems.

 

When finally Fnis, running from MO, generate all the files, like a lot of users, i create a FNIS_OUT mod, enable it and start the game.

I get INSTANT CTD on New Game.

 

I delete my FNIS_OUT and Run FNIS again from MO but this time not create a new FNIS_OUT and not move the fnis files in Overwrite. Simply run the game and this time work perfect. I create a new FNIS_OUT with the overwrite and works. 

 

I repeat the process, deleting FNIS_OUT, clearing Overwite, run Fnis again and create the FNIS_OUT for try get again the CTD on New Game but i'm unable to get it again. Tried 7 times.

 

Finally:

My game run with perfect with 13657 animations and 7 new big mod's with NMM and with MO.

The problem not have relation to the mod's instaled.

Run Fnis with NMM is much more secure but can have some fail some times.

Run Fnis with MO is dangerous and can give you a lot of problems.

If you have problems with FNIS and MO make a TOTAL clean and try again.

 

I not understand WHY happend but is real.

Maybe the problem is related about how MO make the delete of the temporaly files or how make the overwrite of the files or how make the append or ....

But is evident that the problem exist.

[Grey Cloud]

Thanks Genio, that was really interesting. You will probably take a lot of flak for pointing a finger at Saint MO. ?

 

 

[Ernest Lemmingway]

23 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

I have near nothing instaled with MO excep some tools like CrashFixes, ReSaver and Fnis.

That could explain the problems with MO. The virtual folder system is a real pain in the ass and can cause serious issues with FNIS if the mods it's trying to refer to are not installed with MO. In fact, any third party program run through MO can have similar referencing issues. FNIS seems more prone to it.

 

It wasn't always like that but ever since the last update a year or so ago it's gotten horrible.

[worik]

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

But is evident that the problem exist.

Fore mentioned something like this on his page or forum afew times. ?

Basic point is that you have to follow his "advice" strictly, including the verification checks. To sum up his statements: If you just click without reading anything (98%+X of mouse pushers) you are bound to be in random land.

 

1 hour ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

The virtual folder system is a real pain

That's where it boils down to be the major benefit and the major flaw of MO. As far as I read it, the developers are aware of that issue and that is one thing in MO2 that theyhave on their list. Same for Tannin and his work on Vortex.

 

Our good old W7 brick with MO1 eats it all without any errors on that end for 5 years now.

So I am always wondering what is the difference between this ^ thing and the

1 hour ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

it's gotten horrible.

environments of others. ?

Is it W10 that sends things down to hell?

@GenioMaestro You are on W10?

@Ernest Lemmingway Mr: Lemmingway? I think I remember you telling something about W10, too?

[Grey Cloud]

"virtual folder". Always makes me laught that. All folders on a computer are "virtual".

[worik]

15 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

"virtual folder". Always makes me laught that. All folders on a computer are "virtual". 

Someone had to come up with a fancy name for it.

I assume he/she did so, because they needed money to pay for the first theories and dvelopment of that. And what better way is there to get money from an idiot in a business suit than flooding him with bullshit bingo?

[fore]

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

I up my animations to the maximun ussing NORMAL FNIS 7.4.5, i never use XXL version and addiding some animations from FuniBiznes i up my count to 13657. If i add 23 animations more fnis say "Too many animations" and not generate the files. Then, i think is really too near to the maximun limit. And of course, my game start with 7 new big mod's and load any save without problems..

 9636 animations for 39 mods successfully included (character).
 4021 animations for 12 mods and 43 creatures successfully included..

13657 total animations

 

 

For the (standard) FNIS limit the animations count per race. So theoretically you have 10,000 animation for character AND for each of the about 50 creatures. Although you can imagine what that would mean to the game start CTD.

 

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

 

The real big problem: MOD ORGANIZER

 

 

Remember that I was the one who has strongly opposed against MO all the years? Only recently, when Vortex came up, I have removed all the MO warning stickies in my mods.

 

MO's problem is it's software implementation of a virtual file system. A big performance penalty to begin with. But while such virtual FS might be relatively straight for simple mods, there is a lot of overhead for tools like FNIS to fulfill all the OS requirements FNIS has. And overhead that had a lot of unfixed bugs. Bugs that have been fixed in part by MO2. Buit who knows what is still left. 

 

In my opinion NMM was so much underrated. Maybe it didn't have all the functionality of MO. But the Virtual Install was perfect. High-performance, rock solid, and noob safe. Especially when Skyrim and mods are installed on the same drive (to make use of hardlinks possible).

[GenioMaestro]

1 hour ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

That could explain the problems with MO. The virtual folder system is a real pain in the ass and can cause serious issues with FNIS if the mods it's trying to refer to are not installed with MO. In fact, any third party program run through MO can have similar referencing issues. FNIS seems more prone to it.

 

It wasn't always like that but ever since the last update a year or so ago it's gotten horrible.

I'm not expert in MO but i think this can NOT be correct. I'm more near to the inverse position.

 

A program, ANY program, and can be NMM, MO, FNIS, Vortex, tesV.exe, ENB... any.. that you like... relly in the files that exist under the operating system. 

ANY program... that you like.. can NOT have any problem when access or read any file that REALLY exist...

And that is my position because i install all my mod's with NMM and the files end in the DATA folder of the game... and MO must not have any problem reading it from the DATA folder. Simply mark it as unmanaged and must access it and read it. If that can generate any problem MO must not allow make it. And the big question is: MO allow it??? YES Then, that can NOT give any problem.

 

The inverse can be more complex because when you install a mod with MO the files go to diferent folders inside MO and not go to the DATA game folder. When you run a program like FNIS the REAL files are not located in the correct folder and for that you MUST run the program from INSIDE MO.

When you make that MO start a lot of file hooks for each file and folder and i must admit that the virtual system works but is evident is more easy have a fail when have an intermediate file hook.

 

Then, install the mod's with MO or NMM or manually must not make a critical diference, from the point of view of accessing files, because the only REAL diference is if the file have hook or not have it but, of course, the hook MUST works as expected.

Have two managers and/or install mod's manually is DANGEROUS and you must know what are you making and why. I know it, because as i said, i'm a professional.

 

@worik i'm in Win7 because i like the things that i know.

[Sarge Misfit]

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

I use NMM and normal Fnis 7.4.5, i never use the XXL version, and have now 13095 animations in FNIS.

If I recall, 'regular' FNIS has its own limit of 10,000 animations. People complained and the creator added FNIS XXL so you can run up to 20,000.

I'm not disputing the rest of what you say, especially since there is usually more than one factor involved with what causes crashes. However, using the XXL version would likely help to reduce the too-many-animations CTD.

 

All I can say is, I do use FNIS XXL and I do not have that issue.

And I don't use NMM (or MO) for installing mods, though they do come in handy for tracking down missing masters and other errors, so I do use them as diagnostic tools.