Why do people continue to mod Bethesda games?

[Cynical Misanthrope]

People mod their games because of passion, and/or something is missing/wrong with the game.

 

I would rather ask, Why do people still buy their games? Why do people support them despite the fucktard Todd Howard?

[Guest endgameaddiction]

People mod their games because of passion, and/or something is missing/wrong with the game.

 

I would rather ask, Why do people still buy their games? Why do people support them despite the fucktard Todd Howard?

 

That's an easy answer, despite it being a poor excuse. Eventually some other company will catch on and do the same thing they do. And that is allow the same amount of flexibility in modding in a open world with a very versatile toolkit.

 

If people cared about the growth of Bethesda, they would of boycotted that crap game called Fallout 4. I assure you Bethesda would have to come up with a quick solution because it's their money on the line. Just imagine the amount of money put into this development and seeing those sales drop by a large margin. Yeah, you know Bethesda is going to react to their fans wishes. But people easily fall for the bait and shrug their shoulders and accept it for the shit that it is because there is a horde of modders ready to patch the game and make pretty mods for it.

[GrimReaper]

I would rather ask, Why do people still buy their games? Why do people support them despite the fucktard Todd Howard?

 

Legend says there are people who can make an informed decision instead of simply thinking that the next game they buy will cater to their desires. I knew what I was getting when I bought Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim and both Fallouts done by Bethesda. These games have their strengths and weaknesses and you might or might not deem them important enough to buy or don't buy the game.

 

Plus, they're the only ones that make these kind of games. No other company tried to copy Bethesda's style of games despite them being popular like sliced bread. That should tell you something when this happens inside an industry that tries to copy any kind of successful idea, over and over again.

[Mashi]

 

It just works

 

 

At least it isn't a "A button for awesome" thing.

[Comrade Isbariya]

Sadly there are no other games like skyrim and fallout we are stuck with crap games that end in five hours or less. We are also stuck with a non adult game mindset in the gaming industry. Nobody wants to make a whatever goes game that doesn't have to be made for consoles. Game development goes where the money is so we will most likely never see a really good adult game and we most likely never see another game like skyrim or fallout from some other company. The only way to make lots of money with gaming now is online and just copy all the other big money games like those RTS games played in korea.

 

You've got a point here, seeing that even sociopathic idiots play MMOs, for whatever reason.

Then there are the cash shops with all the eye-candy and fashion and fanciness... A lot of people pay for it, even years after release. Just make them believe everything is for free, then, make them addicted to your game and lure them with benefits and fashion and all that stuff and you can have their money~

 

Most singleplayer games are well... You can play them for about 100 hours until you're done, you play them one time, either you liked it or not. You may play them a second time - but that doesn't mean money making for the devs.

 

But still, moddable games like Skyrim (dunno about Fallout, it's just not my genre) highly increase the amount of playtime. Look at other games released around the time Skyrim was, and then ask around how many of them are still played as frequent as Skyrim is.

 

It's been five years now, and Skyrim is, thanks to the modding community - still developing in some way. It'll even receive a special edition AND offer console players the ability to FINALLY experience mods. And here goes the money making. Lucky, if you're a PC user on legendary edition by now.

 

And finally - having games that are fully moddable like Skyrim and / or Fallout is somewhat of a free commercial for gaming companies. The reason I switched from Oblivion to Skyrim in the first place was due to all the fancy stuff I've found while browsing the Nexus just out of boredom and curiosity when I just finished a retro-gaming session of NWN2 which was only slightly moddable. So you see, it works. Even five years after release. I think having such a dedicated community for a singleplayer game(!) is a nice showcase for Bethesda.

 

Then don't forget, Oblivion is still both, played AND modded. If I was Bethesda, I'd be proud of the communities and what they made out of my core game.

 

As for the adult stuff - I think the most important part about that is, that it is risky. Seeing how SexLab is used (and never shows up on named mod sites - you know, the nexus calls Lovers Lab the infamous LL site - you can tell that the majority of players just aren't into stuff like that, when logging in to a pornsite is so much easier. Personally, I wouldn't take the risk to try and keep up with the porn industry myself either.

 

Gaming development costs a lot of money, peoples tastes show a broad variety. It's hard to make a normal game that fits it, so it's even harder for an adult game. And here we come back to modding again. Like I said before, modding gives both, modders and players the choice how they want their game and to make it fit to their personal tastes.

 

As for the future of porn/adult gaming: I'm pretty sure there'll be all the fancy 3D porn stuff with hentai girls and whatever else for occulus and other VR devices where you can watch the scenes from any angle you want and so on, so stay tuned. xD (Not that I'm into that kind of stuff but well - I won't judge anyone who does)

[aloevera5]

Wow I completely disagree with you . Bethesda makes awesome games that I love to play and so do many other people.  PC Gamer rated Skyrim 94%, Fallout 4 88%.  Many many people play these games without any mods.  The console sales for Skyrim are enormous without mods.  the PC sales are also huge.  The question really is why do people mod a game they love.   The answer is obvious they want to make it even better! I have to say a better debugger would be really nice the lack of error messages is frustrating but people love the game and are willing to work around it.

[BlueWolf]

My answer to this is that Bethesda games provides great fun despite great flaws. It's my personal appeal to MMOs and it's my appeal here.

 

What constitutes as fun for everyone differs here and there, Skyrim and other Bethesda games provides fun in a way I can't have anywhere else. Why would I come back to a MMO like Maple Story or Runescape, where the game engine is antiquated and they stocks up systems over systems that engine that it's not made for, while there's new games that works much better with a better engine and more beautiful graphics. Well, those old games are still fun to pop back and I can play them the way it's fun for me, using my knowledge and mastery.

 

Nothing says that it's wrong to enjoy aged gameplay. I still enjoy Pokémon main games a lot and will eat up hundred of hours on a new one because I know how it works, and don't hold any poisonous mindset of "It has to be better to be fun". There's a relaxing feeling to killing 100 slimes or catching 100 pokémons. It's bubblewrap for the mind and playing the game like I already did a dozen time ago is a valid appeal among many games. Growing standards for the industry doesn't mean you have to stop having fun for design that were conceived when technology was limited.  

 

For the modding aspect of this topic, I took up on modding because it was steamlined to the general public. I know programming, I know 3d modeling. But I couldn't have taken on making mods if I wasn't given a platform on Steam or Bethesda.net. I think the Nexus website is an awful place with a demeaning look at beginner modders, and the streamlining eased me into finding a public for my mods. That public is my motivation for making mods and all I need is a good idea and the creation kit. It's the only tools I needed to get a mod made and uploaded and get my 30,000 downloads and 12,000 favorites in 2 weeks. I don't know that I can get this reach for any other game, especially when my mods are not essential and could be easily achieved with console commands. It's a convenience factor for both me and my public. It doesn't have to do with the game quality, but instead that it's flexible enough to allow it, and that the game lacked my idea in the first place.

 

Speaking of quality, I know a bunch of people already said their note in this thread, but I would also like to give my own opinion. I like the gameplay in Skyrim and Fallout 4 more than any other open world singleplayer game.

 

While the Topic Creator is all negative about all those aspects of the game, I find them great and enjoyable. The combat system I feel has clicked with me since Oblivion and provided me severals hundred of hours of fun in Skyrim over 5 years. Some people calls it too dim and hollow, but after playing ESO and coming back to Skyrim, I find the game to have much more depth that I couldn't find in that newer, beautiful, but less featured MMO. Even when compared to other single games, I would say I had much more fun in Skyrim and Fallout 4 than in the Witcher 3 open world. You can find flaws by dissecting any game and I could make myself a list of things I hate or find is poor and sloppy in the Witcher 3, but why would I focus on what I dislike instead of the things that I like in Witcher 3. I would play it just for the monster hunting part of that game, which is the thing I enjoyed the most, but I would still call it a 3/5 stars game. If anything, if the game had a Skyrim/Fallout 4 level of modding, I would make it more like Skyrim.

 

Because I like Skyrim and how it plays.

 

 

 

[Halstrom]

I mean seriously.

Every game that comes from them is more bugged than the other.

No quality control at all.  

And it's clear that they don't give a s*** about the community. A community which is the reason why their games are popular.

 

Would you play Skyrim on PC without any mods? Probably not.

 

They don't even implement a reliable debug system so that modders can know what caused a crash and so on.

 

For example look at Stalker: COP. When the game crashes a message box is displayed explaining exactly what caused the crash, be a texture or a script.

 

If you got a CTD in Skyrim/FO4 and don't find any information on the net, you're on your own, needing to resort to hours of testing until the culprit is found.

 

The newest game still uses the same (but "updated") engine as Morrowind

 

Combat in their games is crap. No combat mechanics. No strategy needed.

 

The player actions have no weight in the game world. You murder everyone in riverwood and the only thing you need to do is pay the bounty and is almost like it didn't happen.

 

Kill the emperor: get a sad remark from a guard.

 

I don't need to say anything about the Magic system.

 

Instead of learning from the community and implementing the best ideas, the games all continue the same.

 

And not to say the laughable graphics that their games use compared to other same generation titles. They don't even bother trying to keep up because they know that the community is going to release mods that will.

 

The animations are junk.

The game physics are non-existent.

 

The company Motto is "Why bother fixing the game, when the community will fix it for us?"

 

Why?

Because they are one of the few companies that actually sets up a game for modding, go talk to Sony or Blizzard about modding support for their games...........

[Andukar]

I mean seriously.

Every game that comes from them is more bugged than the other.

No quality control at all.  

And it's clear that they don't give a s*** about the community. A community which is the reason why their games are popular.

 

Would you play Skyrim on PC without any mods? Probably not.

 

They don't even implement a reliable debug system so that modders can know what caused a crash and so on.

 

For example look at Stalker: COP. When the game crashes a message box is displayed explaining exactly what caused the crash, be a texture or a script.

 

If you got a CTD in Skyrim/FO4 and don't find any information on the net, you're on your own, needing to resort to hours of testing until the culprit is found.

 

The newest game still uses the same (but "updated") engine as Morrowind

 

Combat in their games is crap. No combat mechanics. No strategy needed.

 

The player actions have no weight in the game world. You murder everyone in riverwood and the only thing you need to do is pay the bounty and is almost like it didn't happen.

 

Kill the emperor: get a sad remark from a guard.

 

I don't need to say anything about the Magic system.

 

Instead of learning from the community and implementing the best ideas, the games all continue the same.

 

And not to say the laughable graphics that their games use compared to other same generation titles. They don't even bother trying to keep up because they know that the community is going to release mods that will.

 

The animations are junk.

The game physics are non-existent.

 

The company Motto is "Why bother fixing the game, when the community will fix it for us?"

 

Why?

 

Kill the emperor, because he is false!! Maim kill burn, MAIM KILL BURN!))

 

Why modding? Too many capabilities from Bethesda games for modding, and because its too easy than,for example, Witcher 3 or Dark Souls.

[pennywise57]

At least they don't try to prevent people from modding, and even give tools to do so (even if not perfect). At start I played Skyrim without mods and enjoyed it that way. But it's clear that once you've started installing mods you just can't stop (how many games I had to restart because I f***** up my save...). 

Skyrim without the mods would be a normal game, mods make it legendary.

[Guest]

Cause it's like the only RPG game(s) that you literally can control what you want and do what you want.

[guk]

Skyrim has set a pretty high bar when it comes to modding freedom, although that's mainly due to the tireless mod authors working their butts off for years. Without all the things like SKSE, NifSkope, ENB, FNIS etc. the game would be almost entirely uninteresting for modding.

Bethesda itself just sets a very basic standard, essentially their games are designed with modding in mind - while other games are pretty much a "black box" compared to that.

 

Then take a look at Fallout 4, where Bethesda has made the modding a lot more difficult.

Terrible core design decisions like the hardcoded+voiced protagonist, along with the 4-choice dialogue system. The concept of different "Races" removed entirely, so no Ghoul or Child playthroughs like in FO3. HORRIBLE way how human textures and models work, we're still years away from a seamless HD experience like Skyrim has. This list would go on forever.

So it's understandable that most modders have said "no thanks" and skipped FO4. At least until there is a more solid foundation to work with, regarding 3rd party additions.

 

 

And what other games are worth modding? Witcher 3? Just kidding. Then there are some rare exceptions like X-Com 2 or Age Of Wonders 3 which at least do allow adding lots of content to the game, but all these have in common that you can never change the game into a living world like Skyrim where you can walk around and make things happen the way you want.

Anything else is in the mentioned "black box" where it's already difficult just to change some textures.

 

 

Wow I completely disagree with you . Bethesda makes awesome games that I love to play and so do many other people.  PC Gamer rated Skyrim 94%, Fallout 4 88%.  Many many people play these games without any mods.  The console sales for Skyrim are enormous without mods.  the PC sales are also huge.  The question really is why do people mod a game they love.   The answer is obvious they want to make it even better! I have to say a better debugger would be really nice the lack of error messages is frustrating but people love the game and are willing to work around it.

Quantity and paid reviews don't mean anything. Millions of people play Farmville or other garbage on their phone, instead of high quality video games worth hundreds millions of dollars in production costs. And i guess the "restaurant" serving the most meals worldwide is still McDonalds?

The majority of humans love cheap trash, that's just a fact ;-)

[kepler78]

I stopped to read when I saw that.

 

 

The newest game still uses the same (but "updated") engine as Morrowind

 

Ok, modding Betheshda's games could be harsh and a little bit headache, but it's not a reason to tell craps...

[DocClox]

I stopped to read when I saw that.

 

 

The newest game still uses the same (but "updated") engine as Morrowind

Ok, modding Betheshda's games could be harsh and a little bit headache, but it's not a reason to tell craps...

 

Meh, it's true enough. Oblivion used Morrowind's Gamebryo engine with some incremental upgrades. Fallout 3 used Oblivion's Gamebryo with some more incremental improvements. Skyrim used Fallout 3's Gamebryo engine with some more upgrades and rebranded the whole thing as the Creation Engine. Fallout 4 recompiled Skyrim's Creation Engine for 64 bit and added some more incrementals.

 

Of course, all those incrementals add up to quite a lot, but there's still a fair bit of common ground between Morrowind and Skyrim.

[Kaz Aanh]

Ye everyone is bashing Bethesda and gamebryo but point me to other game like TES series, especially Skyrim/Fallout4.

 

With open sandbox roleplay rpg AAA game today that allows you to modify every aspect of this game with the help of toolkits, with almost no restrictions?( muh engine limits ).

 

Even though Bethesda fuks up every new game and makes it harder to mod, and does not include any information about the new filesystem/extensions etc (aka figure it out modders ), they are still at the top.

[idonotlikeusernames]

I think Rockstar could have tried for the modding crown, if they had included a toolset with GTA V. Of course they'd much rather milk lucrative online content instead of allowing modders to create qualitatively superior things that can (also) be enjoyed single-player. So for now Bethesda remains in the top spot.

I do like the Elder Scrolls fantasy setting though, but I'm much less loyal to Fallout and I'd prefer say GTA questmods to it if they were readily available and the custom character creation was made available in modded single-player games.

[arpaschad]

IMO that's just how the gaming industry works these days... announce a game touting never before seen technology and features making gamers excited to get it...tactically delaying it many months to years to whet their appetite some more...and when all the hype gets to the breaking point that SOME gamers don't care about it being half-baked as long as it gets released then they release it...with pre order "bonuses", DLC's, bugs, and patches to the bugs yet more bugs...it's a business...and like Lord Cutler Beckett from Pirates of the Caribbean said "it's just good business..."

 

thank goodness to the modding community they make such half-assed games bearable to play and the few "worthy" games extend their replay value... as to why modders continue to mod Bethesda games: I don't know...maybe these games are kinda like an artist's canvas where they would put their knowledge to better use...plus the tools are there provided so what's stopping them?

 

When I hear an over-hyped game flopped especially when I am also looking forward to playing it but not without first looking at reviews etc. I console myself thinking that

there are modders who will make it better...so yeah...

 

[TheNoble]

I mean seriously.

Every game that comes from them is more bugged than the other.

No quality control at all.  

And it's clear that they don't give a s*** about the community. A community which is the reason why their games are popular.

 

Would you play Skyrim on PC without any mods? Probably not.

 

They don't even implement a reliable debug system so that modders can know what caused a crash and so on.

 

For example look at Stalker: COP. When the game crashes a message box is displayed explaining exactly what caused the crash, be a texture or a script.

 

If you got a CTD in Skyrim/FO4 and don't find any information on the net, you're on your own, needing to resort to hours of testing until the culprit is found.

 

The newest game still uses the same (but "updated") engine as Morrowind

 

Combat in their games is crap. No combat mechanics. No strategy needed.

 

The player actions have no weight in the game world. You murder everyone in riverwood and the only thing you need to do is pay the bounty and is almost like it didn't happen.

 

Kill the emperor: get a sad remark from a guard.

 

I don't need to say anything about the Magic system.

 

Instead of learning from the community and implementing the best ideas, the games all continue the same.

 

And not to say the laughable graphics that their games use compared to other same generation titles. They don't even bother trying to keep up because they know that the community is going to release mods that will.

 

The animations are junk.

The game physics are non-existent.

 

The company Motto is "Why bother fixing the game, when the community will fix it for us?"

 

Why?

I think you're stretching it a bit here.

 

1. I wouldn't play a lot of games on PC without mods, but PC games are fantastic and a lot of PC games have mods to make them even better. What's the point?

 

2. Reasonable Complaint, but your point is from a modder's perspective, not a gamer's perspective.

 

3. A lot of modern games use the same exact engines except updated for modern times.  This is a fairly new practice. Writing new game engines often takes longer than developing games, and these devs have to eat. Most just buy licenses for Unreal or Cry and call it a day. 

 

4. The combat in the original Skyrim wasn't half bad. I know a lot of people who enjoyed it, but many more people who modify it tend to tailor it to their liking

 

5. Player actions have like 0 weight in a lot of games. A developer has to create a balance such that the player is encouraged to do negative things but not just hard reset the game. Creating such a great "Weight to actions" system does nothing if the player will just reset the game Al'a morrowind killing quest characters. This point is brought up a lot, and gets struck down when people talk about actual gameplay devices.

 

6. The rest of this point is just subjective. I enjoyed the graphics, I enjoyed the animations, and I enjoyed the game. I enjoy it more now that I get to play a mind raping sex demoness now, but it's still fun.

[Nazzzgul666]

 

 

Been playing NWN recently and if you want to know where the "illusion of choice" (aka. Yes, (Sarcastic) Yes, Later (Yes)) in FO4 came from, then you really should play it.

I suppose the illusion of choice thing has been around forever, really. I mean there are a limited number of paths you can implement and most of the time the player is going to want to do the quest. It's not always a bad thing.

 

As an example, in QAYL there's a line where someone is trying get you to take part in a cross country race and he says he doesn't think the you'll have a problem with the money. The repllies for that have options for a nerdy mage ("I'm not exactly the athletic type") a heavy armor type ("I'm built for power more than speed"), a light armour/thiefy type ("I'm quick enough, but distance running...?") and an option to ignore the race and focus on what's been left unsaid ("So what WILL I have a problem with?") All those lead to the same single response but the player gets a chance to express themselves.

 

And that's wha FO4 doesn't do. It's not that all the options end up with me taking the quest or at least leaving the door open - that's pretty much what I'd expect. The root of my problem is that every one of those responses makes me into Mister Chipper Chipmunk, who is determined to remain cheerful even after the recent death of his wife, and who is never too busy to help out in a good cause even if it means putting the search for his recently abducted baby son on hold for a week or two. And if you try and find a conversational choice that leads away from that, they use misleading keywords to drag you back again.

 

Hell, the game won't even let you do one of Preston's radiants without crediting the Minutemen. My first run through I wanted to do those quests because it was the right thing to do - not to try and rebuild Preston's rag-rag army about which I knew next to nothing. But every choice you make, the minutemen come up, and if you manage to avoid having it mentioned on the way out, you can bet they'll be name-checked when you turn the quest in again. And that's where the illusion of choice really burns to my mind.

 

It's like "Roleplaying is hard, so we do it for you!"

 

Well, in NWN you get dialogue options like this:

 

1. I'll do it for you. (good guy)

2. I'll do it for money. (mercenary)

3. I'll think about it. (returns to previous dialogue page)

4. I won't do it! (returns to previous dialogue page, after telling you that you have to do it)

 

At least in Bethesda games you can still wander around and kill/loot things, or have sex with Deathclaws, in Bioware games (like NWN, DAO) there's nothing else to do in the game other than doing the quest. If you don't like it, well the only option you have is to quit the game and not play it, which I often do, at least until I've gathered enough patience to go through this shit.

 

I'm not entirely sure if you're talking about NWN1 or 2, but i loved NWN1. And to my defense i have to admit, i've played BG several years after NWN1 which at this point was the only game i've played more than once and still one of two that i've played more than twice, the other one is Deus Ex (modded Skyrim which i never finished, but restarted 1xx times doesn't really count ). Because i love to "listen" to a good story while having some freedom, and imho those stories were awesome. Less good than BG as i know now, but i still love them.

 

And for the "no choice/consequences" part: it had some influence for your character development, imho the combination of good vs. evil + chaotic vs honest was quite good, but i agree that they could have done more with it. Like, no matter how i started, i ended almost always anywhere around good/chaotic just because if you did all quests and took the most useful rewards, that was what you became. Especially that the evil way was often just to skip a quest was quite annoying, yes. 

 

But, beside from all modding questions, i'd still like to see a modern game with a story and characters so well written (well, and long) like in BG or NWN, so i don't see Bioware as the crappy company in opposition to Bethesda. Imho both have, or at least had, some strength and some weaknesses, the problem is that they both copy the wrong one from each other instead of getting better.

 

Imho new games are lacking so much compared to those quite old ones that i can't really decide what's more annoying. At least in this point i'm glad and even a bit grateful that Beth doesn't prevent modding and even supports it a bit, so i as a player can still enjoy good stories, characters etc.

[ralfetas]

Is easy to say bethesda is bad etc now, skyrim is out since 2011 and since them the modding community just grown, skyrim took a lot of high scores back in the day, even angry joe gives skyrim a 10/10, now fallout is release and everyone expect a skyrim vs fallout game.

Fallout is a great game, but if not for everyone, if you like skyrim you may or may not like fallout, they are different, very different.

Bethesda is the only company that give some modding freedom to everyone, they really don't care what you do with their game, skyblivion, morroblivion or any of those is the perfect example of this, the tools sucks? Yes, but they exists.

Graphics and animation is not so good in beth games, but they are honest about that, is not like a crap ubisoft that shows fake trailers to us, and people still buy their games.

What open world game have nice graphics, animations and don't have bugs? I could list problems here from gta to metalgear.

[BigOnes69]

 

 

 

Been playing NWN recently and if you want to know where the "illusion of choice" (aka. Yes, (Sarcastic) Yes, Later (Yes)) in FO4 came from, then you really should play it.

I suppose the illusion of choice thing has been around forever, really. I mean there are a limited number of paths you can implement and most of the time the player is going to want to do the quest. It's not always a bad thing.

 

As an example, in QAYL there's a line where someone is trying get you to take part in a cross country race and he says he doesn't think the you'll have a problem with the money. The repllies for that have options for a nerdy mage ("I'm not exactly the athletic type") a heavy armor type ("I'm built for power more than speed"), a light armour/thiefy type ("I'm quick enough, but distance running...?") and an option to ignore the race and focus on what's been left unsaid ("So what WILL I have a problem with?") All those lead to the same single response but the player gets a chance to express themselves.

 

And that's wha FO4 doesn't do. It's not that all the options end up with me taking the quest or at least leaving the door open - that's pretty much what I'd expect. The root of my problem is that every one of those responses makes me into Mister Chipper Chipmunk, who is determined to remain cheerful even after the recent death of his wife, and who is never too busy to help out in a good cause even if it means putting the search for his recently abducted baby son on hold for a week or two. And if you try and find a conversational choice that leads away from that, they use misleading keywords to drag you back again.

 

Hell, the game won't even let you do one of Preston's radiants without crediting the Minutemen. My first run through I wanted to do those quests because it was the right thing to do - not to try and rebuild Preston's rag-rag army about which I knew next to nothing. But every choice you make, the minutemen come up, and if you manage to avoid having it mentioned on the way out, you can bet they'll be name-checked when you turn the quest in again. And that's where the illusion of choice really burns to my mind.

 

It's like "Roleplaying is hard, so we do it for you!"

 

Well, in NWN you get dialogue options like this:

 

1. I'll do it for you. (good guy)

2. I'll do it for money. (mercenary)

3. I'll think about it. (returns to previous dialogue page)

4. I won't do it! (returns to previous dialogue page, after telling you that you have to do it)

 

At least in Bethesda games you can still wander around and kill/loot things, or have sex with Deathclaws, in Bioware games (like NWN, DAO) there's nothing else to do in the game other than doing the quest. If you don't like it, well the only option you have is to quit the game and not play it, which I often do, at least until I've gathered enough patience to go through this shit.

 

I'm not entirely sure if you're talking about NWN1 or 2, but i loved NWN1. And to my defense i have to admit, i've played BG several years after NWN1 which at this point was the only game i've played more than once and still one of two that i've played more than twice, the other one is Deus Ex (modded Skyrim which i never finished, but restarted 1xx times doesn't really count ). Because i love to "listen" to a good story while having some freedom, and imho those stories were awesome. Less good than BG as i know now, but i still love them.

 

And for the "no choice/consequences" part: it had some influence for your character development, imho the combination of good vs. evil + chaotic vs honest was quite good, but i agree that they could have done more with it. Like, no matter how i started, i ended almost always anywhere around good/chaotic just because if you did all quests and took the most useful rewards, that was what you became. Especially that the evil way was often just to skip a quest was quite annoying, yes. 

 

But, beside from all modding questions, i'd still like to see a modern game with a story and characters so well written (well, and long) like in BG or NWN, so i don't see Bioware as the crappy company in opposition to Bethesda. Imho both have, or at least had, some strength and some weaknesses, the problem is that they both copy the wrong one from each other instead of getting better.

 

Imho new games are lacking so much compared to those quite old ones that i can't really decide what's more annoying. At least in this point i'm glad and even a bit grateful that Beth doesn't prevent modding and even supports it a bit, so i as a player can still enjoy good stories, characters etc.

 

 

With the NWN games you could add music and storyboards and many of the modders did to make some top of the line stories. Even though it was low graphics many modders utilized lighting, dialogue, music, and story boards to make fuller poetic adventures that told a story rather than just burn through a few choices. Now you have to contend with more content laws that would fill a library putting an end to any creative inspiration. The games now are all graphics. The music sucks, no story boards, no improvement in conversation capabilities, and content rights that limit porting what you need to your mod.

You see this also with other genres such as the Anime Music Awards website. The content used to be really creative when they could use major music labels and artists now they are limited in what music they can use it has gone downhill.

This is a major reason for the blandness of the games coming out now. They can be sued from every angle so you do just enough to make your own content work and make it functional. Period. Hell wont be to much longer if you make something based on Shakespearean Tragedy someone who owns the rights to that will sue you.

[Nazzzgul666]

 

 

 

 

Been playing NWN recently and if you want to know where the "illusion of choice" (aka. Yes, (Sarcastic) Yes, Later (Yes)) in FO4 came from, then you really should play it.

I suppose the illusion of choice thing has been around forever, really. I mean there are a limited number of paths you can implement and most of the time the player is going to want to do the quest. It's not always a bad thing.

 

As an example, in QAYL there's a line where someone is trying get you to take part in a cross country race and he says he doesn't think the you'll have a problem with the money. The repllies for that have options for a nerdy mage ("I'm not exactly the athletic type") a heavy armor type ("I'm built for power more than speed"), a light armour/thiefy type ("I'm quick enough, but distance running...?") and an option to ignore the race and focus on what's been left unsaid ("So what WILL I have a problem with?") All those lead to the same single response but the player gets a chance to express themselves.

 

And that's wha FO4 doesn't do. It's not that all the options end up with me taking the quest or at least leaving the door open - that's pretty much what I'd expect. The root of my problem is that every one of those responses makes me into Mister Chipper Chipmunk, who is determined to remain cheerful even after the recent death of his wife, and who is never too busy to help out in a good cause even if it means putting the search for his recently abducted baby son on hold for a week or two. And if you try and find a conversational choice that leads away from that, they use misleading keywords to drag you back again.

 

Hell, the game won't even let you do one of Preston's radiants without crediting the Minutemen. My first run through I wanted to do those quests because it was the right thing to do - not to try and rebuild Preston's rag-rag army about which I knew next to nothing. But every choice you make, the minutemen come up, and if you manage to avoid having it mentioned on the way out, you can bet they'll be name-checked when you turn the quest in again. And that's where the illusion of choice really burns to my mind.

 

It's like "Roleplaying is hard, so we do it for you!"

 

Well, in NWN you get dialogue options like this:

 

1. I'll do it for you. (good guy)

2. I'll do it for money. (mercenary)

3. I'll think about it. (returns to previous dialogue page)

4. I won't do it! (returns to previous dialogue page, after telling you that you have to do it)

 

At least in Bethesda games you can still wander around and kill/loot things, or have sex with Deathclaws, in Bioware games (like NWN, DAO) there's nothing else to do in the game other than doing the quest. If you don't like it, well the only option you have is to quit the game and not play it, which I often do, at least until I've gathered enough patience to go through this shit.

 

I'm not entirely sure if you're talking about NWN1 or 2, but i loved NWN1. And to my defense i have to admit, i've played BG several years after NWN1 which at this point was the only game i've played more than once and still one of two that i've played more than twice, the other one is Deus Ex (modded Skyrim which i never finished, but restarted 1xx times doesn't really count ). Because i love to "listen" to a good story while having some freedom, and imho those stories were awesome. Less good than BG as i know now, but i still love them.

 

And for the "no choice/consequences" part: it had some influence for your character development, imho the combination of good vs. evil + chaotic vs honest was quite good, but i agree that they could have done more with it. Like, no matter how i started, i ended almost always anywhere around good/chaotic just because if you did all quests and took the most useful rewards, that was what you became. Especially that the evil way was often just to skip a quest was quite annoying, yes. 

 

But, beside from all modding questions, i'd still like to see a modern game with a story and characters so well written (well, and long) like in BG or NWN, so i don't see Bioware as the crappy company in opposition to Bethesda. Imho both have, or at least had, some strength and some weaknesses, the problem is that they both copy the wrong one from each other instead of getting better.

 

Imho new games are lacking so much compared to those quite old ones that i can't really decide what's more annoying. At least in this point i'm glad and even a bit grateful that Beth doesn't prevent modding and even supports it a bit, so i as a player can still enjoy good stories, characters etc.

 

 

With the NWN games you could add music and storyboards and many of the modders did to make some top of the line stories. Even though it was low graphics many modders utilized lighting, dialogue, music, and story boards to make fuller poetic adventures that told a story rather than just burn through a few choices. Now you have to contend with more content laws that would fill a library putting an end to any creative inspiration. The games now are all graphics. The music sucks, no story boards, no improvement in conversation capabilities, and content rights that limit porting what you need to your mod.

You see this also with other genres such as the Anime Music Awards website. The content used to be really creative when they could use major music labels and artists now they are limited in what music they can use it has gone downhill.

This is a major reason for the blandness of the games coming out now. They can be sued from every angle so you do just enough to make your own content work and make it functional. Period. Hell wont be to much longer if you make something based on Shakespearean Tragedy someone who owns the rights to that will sue you.

 

I have to admit, the time i played NWN i didn't know much about mods, i think i've played it 5-8 times just vanilla. For somebody who dislikes playing any game even twice, that's a lot. I'd disagree with the music, imho there are new games with good music, but i also have to admit that i know as much about music as i knew about mods these days. You might be right that the whole licence thing is a critical point for modding, but licences wouldn't stop anybody to write a good story and intresting quests into an officially published game.

 

And about graphics: I enjoy the graphics i have in Skyrim right now. I mean, i don't even use an ENB and when watching trailers for games coming soon i think "Why do they look that bad?" But on the other hand, i would appretiate it if Beth would say, fuck graphics, we leave that to modders and write a good story/gampeplay. And even without mods i'd play this game then, i don't care that much if my sword reflects my face properly, probably i'd even buy a BG III with the old engine as long as it's the same story writer in charge. But nevertheless i understand when ppl become angry because they said "fuck graphics and story too."

 

And just to be clear: I don't say Beth is a bad company in general, getting worse than they had been before still means they are better than some others, like Ubisoft or EA. I just had the feelding that Bioware isn't, or at least wasn't that bad either. 

I don't compare Skyrim with Fallout, i compare Skyrim with Morrowind or older titles. I don't use Oblivion because i really hated these damn gates and because of that almost the whole game, but i know many ppl think different. And if i want to compare FO4 with anyting, i'd use an older title there too, but since i didn't buy it yet... i don't^^

[BigOnes69]

 

 

 

With the NWN games you could add music and storyboards and many of the modders did to make some top of the line stories. Even though it was low graphics many modders utilized lighting, dialogue, music, and story boards to make fuller poetic adventures that told a story rather than just burn through a few choices. Now you have to contend with more content laws that would fill a library putting an end to any creative inspiration. The games now are all graphics. The music sucks, no story boards, no improvement in conversation capabilities, and content rights that limit porting what you need to your mod.

You see this also with other genres such as the Anime Music Awards website. The content used to be really creative when they could use major music labels and artists now they are limited in what music they can use it has gone downhill.

This is a major reason for the blandness of the games coming out now. They can be sued from every angle so you do just enough to make your own content work and make it functional. Period. Hell wont be to much longer if you make something based on Shakespearean Tragedy someone who owns the rights to that will sue you.

 

I have to admit, the time i played NWN i didn't know much about mods, i think i've played it 5-8 times just vanilla. For somebody who dislikes playing any game even twice, that's a lot. I'd disagree with the music, imho there are new games with good music, but i also have to admit that i know as much about music as i knew about mods these days. You might be right that the whole licence thing is a critical point for modding, but licences wouldn't stop anybody to write a good story and intresting quests into an officially published game.

 

And about graphics: I enjoy the graphics i have in Skyrim right now. I mean, i don't even use an ENB and when watching trailers for games coming soon i think "Why do they look that bad?" But on the other hand, i would appretiate it if Beth would say, fuck graphics, we leave that to modders and write a good story/gampeplay. And even without mods i'd play this game then, i don't care that much if my sword reflects my face properly, probably i'd even buy a BG III with the old engine as long as it's the same story writer in charge. But nevertheless i understand when ppl become angry because they said "fuck graphics and story too."

 

And just to be clear: I don't say Beth is a bad company in general, getting worse than they had been before still means they are better than some others, like Ubisoft or EA. I just had the feelding that Bioware isn't, or at least wasn't that bad either. 

I don't compare Skyrim with Fallout, i compare Skyrim with Morrowind or older titles. I don't use Oblivion because i really hated these damn gates and because of that almost the whole game, but i know many ppl think different. And if i want to compare FO4 with anyting, i'd use an older title there too, but since i didn't buy it yet... i don't^^

 

 

Its to bad you never enjoyed the NWN mods there were quite a few that left you as awed and emotional as many very good movies and books, but they utilized top Music artists and such in the mods. I disagree about Bethesda being a good company for I have had a few conversations with higher ups. One of which I had purchased games overseas and when I came home their servers rendered them useless. My first Skyrim copy being one. The several times I have talked to people at the company they were real assholes talking down to me and such. This is a reflection of the evolution of the game and their policies whether they had a right to or not.

I agree I would love to see a good story line in one of the games and it would not be difficult to do but with the Creation kit not friendly to conversations and story boards being near impossible it makes it more difficult than it should be.

 

[Nazzzgul666]

 

 

 

 

With the NWN games you could add music and storyboards and many of the modders did to make some top of the line stories. Even though it was low graphics many modders utilized lighting, dialogue, music, and story boards to make fuller poetic adventures that told a story rather than just burn through a few choices. Now you have to contend with more content laws that would fill a library putting an end to any creative inspiration. The games now are all graphics. The music sucks, no story boards, no improvement in conversation capabilities, and content rights that limit porting what you need to your mod.

You see this also with other genres such as the Anime Music Awards website. The content used to be really creative when they could use major music labels and artists now they are limited in what music they can use it has gone downhill.

This is a major reason for the blandness of the games coming out now. They can be sued from every angle so you do just enough to make your own content work and make it functional. Period. Hell wont be to much longer if you make something based on Shakespearean Tragedy someone who owns the rights to that will sue you.

 

I have to admit, the time i played NWN i didn't know much about mods, i think i've played it 5-8 times just vanilla. For somebody who dislikes playing any game even twice, that's a lot. I'd disagree with the music, imho there are new games with good music, but i also have to admit that i know as much about music as i knew about mods these days. You might be right that the whole licence thing is a critical point for modding, but licences wouldn't stop anybody to write a good story and intresting quests into an officially published game.

 

And about graphics: I enjoy the graphics i have in Skyrim right now. I mean, i don't even use an ENB and when watching trailers for games coming soon i think "Why do they look that bad?" But on the other hand, i would appretiate it if Beth would say, fuck graphics, we leave that to modders and write a good story/gampeplay. And even without mods i'd play this game then, i don't care that much if my sword reflects my face properly, probably i'd even buy a BG III with the old engine as long as it's the same story writer in charge. But nevertheless i understand when ppl become angry because they said "fuck graphics and story too."

 

And just to be clear: I don't say Beth is a bad company in general, getting worse than they had been before still means they are better than some others, like Ubisoft or EA. I just had the feelding that Bioware isn't, or at least wasn't that bad either. 

I don't compare Skyrim with Fallout, i compare Skyrim with Morrowind or older titles. I don't use Oblivion because i really hated these damn gates and because of that almost the whole game, but i know many ppl think different. And if i want to compare FO4 with anyting, i'd use an older title there too, but since i didn't buy it yet... i don't^^

 

 

Its to bad you never enjoyed the NWN mods there were quite a few that left you as awed and emotional as many very good movies and books, but they utilized top Music artists and such in the mods. I disagree about Bethesda being a good company for I have had a few conversations with higher ups. One of which I had purchased games overseas and when I came home their servers rendered them useless. My first Skyrim copy being one. The several times I have talked to people at the company they were real assholes talking down to me and such. This is a reflection of the evolution of the game and their policies whether they had a right to or not.

I agree I would love to see a good story line in one of the games and it would not be difficult to do but with the Creation kit not friendly to conversations and story boards being near impossible it makes it more difficult than it should be.

 

 

Well, good is very very relative. That something isn't as good as it should be is one thing. That they don't need to publish it at all and most (all?) other publishers don't is another. I mean,, several other publishers are considered good just because they don't forbid modding or make it impossible without offering any tools at all. Blaming somebody for giving you a gift that isn't as cool as you'd like it to have is not my cup of tea. 

*edit: Tell me games from another company where you can do more than in Beth's games instead of what can't be done in Skyrim, that would be a point.

Your copy is a different story.

[isahale]

Personally I'd like to bring up that from my perspective as a gamer I've never found the Bethesda games to be really excessively buggy in comparison to other even non open world games. Bugs are a natural part of any kind of software development and depending on the application you're always going to reach a point where it just no longer makes sense to continue trying to stamp out a bug. As far as the modding goes I think it's a combination of Bethesda sticking to a relatively well explored and open engine and creation system and just that Bethesda tends to maintain an environment towards modders that while not always ideal isn't combative or hostile. Finally, while this is just subjective opinion, I'd like to say that myself as a player have never been disappointed or unhappy with a Bethesda game. Yes, they've made decisions I've not always agreed with or liked, but on the whole I can't say I've ever had anywhere near the kind of dislike or vitriol others have had towards them.