To ESM, or not to ESM...

[srayesmanll]

Hopefully I am going to release the next version of SORapist tonight, so then I want to move on the next phase of the mod. This one will require me to modify an existing location (will dupe and change without touching original). The thing is this location has several mods that use/change it already, so rather than putting this in SORapist, I was going to make it a separate mod that requires SORapist. This is so if someone has a mod that they use for this location that they like, they can still use SORpist, just not the optional ESP. Several questions arise:

 

1) Can I leave SORapist as an ESP, and have the new mod (call it SOR2 for now) use features (quests, etc) from the original? Or do I have to make SORapist an ESM?

 

2) I know I can use FNVEdit to convert it to an ESM, but is there some little known, unwritten rules for an ESM? Things that should not be in there? Seems like any ESP can be an ESM, but just wanted to check.

 

3) If SORapist is not required to be an ESM to be used by SOR2, is there an advantage to making it one? I know that putting NPCs into ESMs seems a better way to go because of hair/face/body coloring issues (seems to affect Skyrim more), however I have no created NPCs (yet). What advantages are there?

 

Thanks for any info/insights you can give.

[jaam]

Hopefully I am going to release the next version of SORapist tonight' date=' so then I want to move on the next phase of the mod. This one will require me to modify an existing location (will dupe and change without touching original). The thing is this location has several mods that use/change it already, so rather than putting this in SORapist, I was going to make it a separate mod that requires SORapist. This is so if someone has a mod that they use for this location that they like, they can still use SORpist, just not the optional ESP. Several questions arise:

 

1) Can I leave SORapist as an ESP, and have the new mod (call it SOR2 for now) use features (quests, etc) from the original? Or do I have to make SORapist an ESM?

 

2) I know I can use FNVEdit to convert it to an ESM, but is there some little known, unwritten rules for an ESM? Things that should not be in there? Seems like any ESP can be an ESM, but just wanted to check.

 

3) If SORapist is not required to be an ESM to be used by SOR2, is there an advantage to making it one? I know that putting NPCs into ESMs seems a better way to go because of hair/face/body coloring issues (seems to affect Skyrim more), however I have no created NPCs (yet). What advantages are there?

 

Thanks for any info/insights you can give.

[/quote']

 

1) An ESM cannot reference an ESP except through the Buildref mechanism. That is not practical with quests.

 

2) Only rule I know of: all ref referenced in scripts must be PERMANENT.

 

3) If your mod becomes an ESM it will become subject to load order. Obviously load order is a major issue for users.

[zippy57]

Load order is only a major issue for people who don't bother to read instructions. I say if they can't be bothered to read them, then that's their fault.

[DoctaSax]

Whether you go for esp or esm, you are going to have to switch back & forth sometimes just to edit stuff in the geck. Halstrom can probably tell you all about that I'm not sure it's worth the trouble for what you're trying to do.

 

What location are you thinking of, and how would your mod affect it? Maybe it'd be a lot easier to just pick another location, or have stuff become enabled given a particular messagebox choice or MCM option?

[srayesmanll]

1) An ESM cannot reference an ESP except through the Buildref mechanism. That is not practical with quests.

 

2) Only rule I know of: all ref referenced in scripts must be PERMANENT.

 

3) If your mod becomes an ESM it will become subject to load order. Obviously load order is a major issue for users.

 

Thanks. Just some clarifications on what I'm trying to do. The original SORapist mod will become the ESM (if needed). The SOR2 mod will actually contain only 1 quest. It will modify an existing interior to make it a player home, with some sexout additions. The quest will be a simple quest (basic fetch quest stages). The only actual interactions I foresee are calls to the main SORapist quest to handle the rape scenarios already in SORapist. I don't believe there will be any calls from original SORapists to SOR2. So to followup on the 3 points:

 

1) I don't believe there will be any referencing of things by SORapists from SOR2. That may change, but I currently don't see it happening.

 

2) Not sure what a permanent ref is. Are you referring to a ref that points to a base item rather than a world instance? For example, a perm ref would be the original chest in the GECK, not the instance (copy) of the chest on DocMitchell's house.

 

3) Isn't this also an issue with ESPs as well? The whole reason for BOSS is to order ESMs AND ESPs? Also, my question still stands - are there any advantages to making it an ESM?

 

jaam - from the info you gave, I get the impression that you're saying that it's fine to leave the original as an ESP that the new one can reference. Am I reading you right?

[zippy57]

1) You said earlier SOR2 was the ESM and you wanted it to "use features (quests, etc) from the original". That's not possible, as the original would be an ESP. You can't reference things lower in the load order. ESPs are lower than ESMs. Therefore, ESMs can't reference ESPs.

 

2) I think he means Persistent. But that's always been a rule for scripts, ESM or no.

 

3) The advantage to making it an ESM is that the GECK won't remove references to ESMs on exit, but it will for ESPs.

[srayesmanll]

Whether you go for esp or esm' date=' you are going to have to switch back & forth sometimes just to edit stuff in the geck. Halstrom can probably tell you all about that I'm not sure it's worth the trouble for what you're trying to do.

 

What location are you thinking of, and how would your mod affect it? Maybe it'd be a lot easier to just pick another location, or have stuff become enabled given a particular messagebox choice or MCM option?

[/quote']

 

I think I read about Halstrom's fun with that. That is the only thing that really concerns me, although I am getting better using FNV to clean up muck in my mod .

 

I kind of don't want to say the location... Oh hell, it's the schoolhouse in GS. The interior changes would be to get rid of the clutter, add some of the standard player home items, plus some zaz/toy stuff. I would rather not change the locations because I like the lack of walls, doors, etc that clog up most locations. Also it being an old school house actually ties into the theme I was going for (in fact it was the school house itself that suggested the idea and the questline for this offshoot). Damn, I probably gave too much away...

[prideslayer]

Some notes..

 

- ESMs can reference ESPs through buildref, but this only works reliably for items. Doing it for quests does not work period, since there is no "quest" type object. Doing buildref on a quest ID into a ref variable does not allow you to do "myref.questvar" or anything like that.

 

- NX's SetEV* and GetEV* exist for just this purpose. You can certainly use the player as the common object between an ESM and ESP -- or even between two ESPs -- to transfer data back and forth, share variables, etc.

 

The only reason to make an ESM, if you're using the extender functions, is to create NPCs -- since NPCs created in an ESP don't handle skin textures properly.

[jaam]

1) You said earlier SOR2 was the ESM and you wanted it to "use features (quests' date=' etc) from the original". That's not possible, as the original would be an ESP. You can't reference things lower in the load order. ESPs are lower than ESMs. Therefore, ESMs can't reference ESPs.

 

2) I think he means Persistent. But that's always been a rule for scripts, ESM or no.

 

3) The advantage to making it an ESM is that the GECK won't remove references to ESMs on exit, but it will for ESPs.

[/quote']

 

2) You can compile a script in an esp that used non persistent reference. Those script of course break when you convert the esp to esm.

[DoctaSax]

I kind of don't want to say the location... Oh hell' date=' it's the schoolhouse in GS. The interior changes would be to get rid of the clutter, add some of the standard player home items, plus some zaz/toy stuff.

[/quote']

 

Didn't know the schoolhouse was used that often in other mods...

 

If all you're doing is adding & disabling (NOT deleting) stuff, it can all be dependent on script, really, with enabling your new stuff (marked as initially disabled), disabling the stuff you wanna get rid of, combined with the occasional SetOwnership command. The way vanilla house upgrades work. That way, you could keep it all in one esp & still have your cell changes dependent on the player's choice (a little messagebox yes/no).

 

Of course, this doesn't rule out all chance of conflict, but if people wanna give preference to another mod that touches the schoolhouse, they can just have that after yours, & click no when given the choice. *Should* be fine.

[srayesmanll]

Didn't know the schoolhouse was used that often in other mods...

 

If all you're doing is adding & disabling (NOT deleting) stuff' date=' it can all be dependent on script, really, with enabling your new stuff (marked as initially disabled), disabling the stuff you wanna get rid of, combined with the occasional SetOwnership command. The way vanilla house upgrades work. That way, you could keep it all in one esp & still have your cell changes dependent on the player's choice (a little messagebox yes/no).

 

Of course, this doesn't rule out all chance of conflict, but if people wanna give preference to another mod that touches the schoolhouse, they can just have that after yours, & click no when given the choice. *Should* be fine.

[/quote']

 

I would be deleting some things and modifying at least 1 doorway. In fact, I would be removing and replacing several cabinets, and the lockers (maybe).

 

Took another look on Nexus, and there are between 60-75 mods that reference the schoolhouse. Only about 5-6 of them use the schoolhouse itself (exterior or interior), but most of the mods tend to use the schoolhouse as a generic storage dump. They create the clothing or whatever, then add a chest inside the schoolhouse that contains the clothing. In fact, one of the clothing mods I use sticks a crate containing lingerie on a shelf in the storage room. I should have known people would use it a generic crap dump location. If I duplicate it to do my work, then swap out the original with my modded one after the quest officially begins, then that would give players the opportunity to get the clothing/weapons/etc out of there before I replaced it with my copy. I think this is what "AfterschoolSpecial" did (mod that converted the schoolhouse to a player home - nice mod). I think they even had a message/dialog that warned the player to remove anything stored in there before getting possision. It was actually well done, I thought.

[DoctaSax]

I would be deleting some things and modifying at least 1 doorway. In fact' date=' I would be removing and replacing several cabinets, and the lockers (maybe).[/quote']

 

Well, generally you're better off disabling than deleting. Same difference to the player, but less chance of CTDs in case of conflict. This is why FNVEdit has the "undelete & disable" option.

 

If I duplicate it to do my work, then swap out the original with my modded one after the quest officially begins, then that would give players the opportunity to get the clothing/weapons/etc out of there before I replaced it with my copy.

 

Sounds like the best plan: no need to be disabling or touching any vanilla stuff if the door just moves you to a duplicate cell.

[srayesmanll]

So I think what everyone is saying is: ESM not really needed. Good, keep things simple that way. Still deciding if I want to do a separate esp, but I think I can keep it in 1 esp and still handle other mods using the school. Now to actually do the damn thing.

[KainsChylde]

Just an aside, I started a mod using the schoolhouse that ended up going nowhere. I posted what little I completed on nexus (The Well-Equipped Schoolhouse) which you are welcome to use to save some time.

[Halstrom]

Whether you go for esp or esm' date=' you are going to have to switch back & forth sometimes just to edit stuff in the geck. Halstrom can probably tell you all about that I'm not sure it's worth the trouble for what you're trying to do.[/quote']

Actually I have no problems with this at all, I don't have an esp version, the latest beta's of NVSE & GECK PowerUp allow me to work directly on ESM's.

[Yukashii]

Just to play devil's advocate, why use the schoolhouse at all? There are some unused buildings in the northern end of goodsprings you could make a new interior for without any conflicts.

[srayesmanll]

Yukashii: Several reasons I want to use the schoolhouse:

 

1) Theme - the idea of the quest was inspired by the schoolhouse.

2) Love the layout of the interior of the schoolhouse. One big open space.

3) I want to use an interior cell that already exists (really, duplicate an interior cell) - I am not well-versed in cell/interior creation, so using a preexisting interior that is already navmeshed will let me learn quicker, rather than throwing me in the deep end. I can learn in the shallow end.

4) I will have the same problem using ANY preexisting building in Goodsprings whether there a vanilla interiors or not. Take a look at Nexus - there are numerous mods that use the undeveloped buildings, so I will be stepping on someone's toes somewhere.

 

This mod will be a precursor to the Lair that I want to create (which will be a wholly developed interior cell). One of the reasons I was thinking of making this a separate esp is that when I do create the Lair, I want to take the elements from this quest and apply it there. If I incorporate the schoolhouse into SORapist, then want to remove it, I'll have to use FNVEdit, or remove the triggers that swap out the schoolhouse, leaving dead space in the ESP. This way it's cleaner. Still thinking on that one though.

[srayesmanll]

Just an aside' date=' I started a mod using the schoolhouse that ended up going nowhere. I posted what little I completed on nexus (The Well-Equipped Schoolhouse) which you are welcome to use to save some time.

[/quote']

 

Cool, thanks. I saw that mod before, but for some reason, the name didn't click. I'll take a look at it soon (I've released a new version of SOR, so I should be able to begin working on this part now).

[KainsChylde]

Further note, when you delete an object from a cell you are not deleting the object, merely a reference to it. So that shouldn't cause any conflicts.

[zippy57]

Actually I have no problems with this at all' date=' I don't have an esp version, the latest beta's of NVSE & GECK PowerUp allow me to work directly on ESM's.

[/quote']Where did you get the latest GECK PowerUp? Every download I can find for it doesn't allow editing ESMs. Even one that claimed it did actually doesn't.

[prideslayer]

Actually I have no problems with this at all' date=' I don't have an esp version, the latest beta's of NVSE & GECK PowerUp allow me to work directly on ESM's.

[/quote']Where did you get the latest GECK PowerUp? Every download I can find for it doesn't allow editing ESMs. Even one that claimed it did actually doesn't.

 

The Alpha/Beta version on the nexus. I don't use it myself, others say it works. The normal one works just fine for me.

 

http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/41642

 

The 1.7 download (beta).

[zippy57]

http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/41642

"This file has currently been set to hidden by the author of the file. You cannot look at this file page or download any files relating to this file until the author makes the file visible to the public again."

 

[jaam]

http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/41642

"This file has currently been set to hidden by the author of the file. You cannot look at this file page or download any files relating to this file until the author makes the file visible to the public again."

 

 

Try again, that's just nexus being overloaded since Dawnstar. I can't ven open the site at the moment!

[zippy57]

I wonder what will happen on the Nexus after the release of the next Skyrim DLC... Considering the next DLC is essentially a mod.

[DoctaSax]

Further note' date=' when you delete an object from a cell you are not deleting the object, merely a reference to it. So that shouldn't cause any conflicts.

[/quote']

 

It does if the reference is used in another mod. Hence FNVEdit's "undelete & disable references". Not saying there's much likelihood of a mod actually referring to a pile of rubble someplace, but it's just good practice not to delete anything vanilla, but disable instead.