Serana and the Nord Queen

[Content Consumer]

Back in late June of last year, there was some discussion in the CCAS support thread on the origin of the Ancient Nord Queen from Sexlab Stories. It's an interesting discussion and I figure this might be a good place to put a link to that for anyone who's interested.

 

I was going to copy/paste the whole thing, but that's kind of pointless, and formatting would screw it up anyway. Instead I'll just be self-aggrandizing and copy my own comment, with a link to the post that started it. I recommend reading from the start, it's not a lot and doesn't even take up a full page on the support thread. Let's not post in the CCAS support thread though, that's why I'm putting it here. ;)

 

Spoiler

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/60586-content-consumers-alternate-starts/page-29#entry1601468

 

 

Rather than do any modding, I've been sitting here screwing around trying to figure out this whole Nord Queen thing.

Specifically, if we do NOT use known histories as the recognition point for the Nord Queen, we have to use direct knowledge. Which limits our pool of people who can recognize the Nord Queen, or at least recognize something about her as being the individual in question.

So I just sat here coming up with this crap. Wall of text, feel free to ignore.

 

Part 1: The Nord Queen

We know that the Nord Queen was alive alongside Gauldur.

We know that Gauldur was alive during the time of Harald, in the First Era. We will assume that Gauldur was not more than approximately 40 years old when Harald was born (see the note on Nord ages below).

We know that Harald was crowned High King in 1e 143.

Since she would have to have abdicated before that event, we therefore know that the Nord Queen was murdered on or before 1e 143.

NB: So far, this is predicated on the premise that she was a Queen, but not necessarily the High Queen. Either status would work, in fact - we can assume that she abdicated her queendom in favor of Harald becoming High King, or that she was murdered thus paving the way for Harald to become High King.

NB/Aside: I tend to favor this second theory. There is some debate as to whether Harald was involved in Gauldur's murder. It is well known that Harald did do his level best to expunge the family name of Gauldur from all record, and whether one believes it was because he was a murderous usurper or because he and Geirmund wanted to wipe the crimes of Gauldur's sons from his legend is entirely personal choice.

Therefore, we'll set 1e 143 as her last living date.

We know that she was a Nord, and Nords rarely live beyond 100 years of age or so (we're discounting some of the more obscure legends regarding Old Knocker/Orkey and the possibility that Wulfharth learned a shout that extends lifespan).

Therefore we're setting her birth at no earlier than 1e 43.

We don't know exactly at what age she became a Queen, but we must assume somewhere between 1e 43 and 1e 143. We'll just split the difference - 1e 93. The exact date is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that she was a Queen (or High Queen) after this point but before 1e 143. Dealing with round numbers is easier - we'll just say that she was alive during 1e 100.

 

Part 2: Serana

We are using Serana here rather than any of the other Volkihar purebloods or "grandchildren" because she is the only one who even remotely gives any evidence of a timeline. It might be reasonable to use that Vyrthur and Gelebor instead, being that they were alive before the Falmer were betrayed by the Dwemer, but given the unspecified length of Snow Elf lifespans, this is problematic.

We know that Serana was entombed some time before Cyrodiil became the seat of an empire. Since the first Cyrodiilic empire can be assumed to have been founded by Alessia in 1e 242, we must assume that she was entombed before this event. Note that 1e 243 is not a hard number, but it is a convenient one, happening at the conquering of White-Gold Tower by the Allessian forces.

NB: The argument that Serana was speaking of a different Cyrodiilic empire, there having been different dynasties that could be considered emperors of a Cyrodiilic empire, is entirely valid. But that leads us into a neverending rabbit hole of possible origin points. Since we're basing this all on Serana's words, I feel justified in basing it on her tone of voice too, which would indicate her surprise that there is any Cyrodiilic empire, not just the "most recent" one.

Unfortunately, although we have a high number for her entombment, we do not have a low number. However, we can make some guesses:

Serana is of Nedic stock. This can be inferred from her physical features. This is by no means perfect evidence, but it's a good start. She's certainly not Yokudan, and by this time there were no "Bretons" in High Rock, though the Nedes (Nords) had been settling portions. Daggerfall, for example, was settled in 1e 246.

NB/Aside: I am uncertain as to the date of origin for the people called Bretons. Ostensibly offspring between Nemer (specifically Nords) and Aldmer, we can make some pretty wild guesses about their origin, using such sources as Racial Phylogeny.

Serana would almost certainly have arrived in Skyrim before 1e 68, the last Nedic migration from Atmora. That she could have done so in the First Era is certainly possible, but just for simplicity's sake I'm going to say it was in the Merethic Era. It really doesn't matter though, because...

If we take it as fact (disputed, but bear with me) that Gauldur was no older than roughly 100 years at the time of his death, there's really not much time between the beginning of the First Era and his death.

All of this is just conjecture, but with some basis in fact (given that we are assuming that the recorded history is fully accurate, which is also by no means the case, but if we don't then we might as well give up).

And the whole point of it is:

 

Part 3: Serana and the Nord Queen

We can assume that Serana may have known the Nord Queen, either personally, or through Gauldur (also either personally or by reputation).

Unfortunately for us, there is actually very little overlap in the timelines here. As I said, we must assume that Gauldur was no older than 100 years when he was killed, and Gauldur is the basis for our knowledge of the Nord Queen.

100 years is really quite a short time indeed when we consider just how old Serana is, and how old she may have been before the First Era started.

In truth, there is no hard evidence that Serana was even alive at the same time as Gauldur. It's a possibility, but not a certainty.

At any rate, Serana is the only individual we have in Skyrim (talking about the vanilla game + DLC here, not mods) besides the Daedra who we might say either knew personally or by reputation the Nord Queen.

She's also the only one with whom the player interacts with on anything longer than a very temporary basis.

There are some other possibile people though.

 

Part 4: Other possibilities

If not Serana, extraplanar entities are probably the best bet. But the list is actually fairly extensive:

Serana is probably the best bet.

All of the Divines (that is, eight of the Divines, not Talos)

Vyrthur, Gelebor, Harkon, Valerica

Other vampires in Castle Volkihar? It is implied that some of them are also purebloods and thus may be old enough.

All of the Daedra princes. Sanguine is probably the best bet, as his interaction with the player is more direct, and longer lasting, than the other Daedra princes in the vanilla (and DLC) game.

Master Neloth is a (very remote) possibility. The liklihood of his being old enough is vanishingly small, and even then we must assume that he (Chimer at the time, obviously, not Dunmer) was nowhere near Skyrim and the Nord Queen, the Chimer and the Nords being at war at the time.

There may be other possibilities, but I doubt it. Which leads us to:

 

Part 5: Historical accounts

I am forced to dismiss the possibility of any NPCs being able to speak to the Nord Queen about her past, except Serana, Sanguine, and possibliy Hermaeus Mora. Other Daedra Princes may have knowledge of her, anywhere from limited to full, but it doesn't really matter since we never interact with any of them much. Even Hermaeus Mora is fairly limited. Sanguine, either as himself or in the form of Sam Guevenne, may be able to discuss the matter. Serana too, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

So we're forced to come up with historical accounts of her reign. The vanilla sources on Gauldur can be modified as needed, or new ones created.

Which means that if we really want any sort of dialogue about the Nord Queen, someone will have to sit down and write it up. For myself, I cannot justify dialogue about an historical figure without some form of evidence to back it up, fictional or otherwise. This may be a real failing on my part. 

I mean, look at some of my mods. CCAS for example. I wanted to use a nice stone Ogre statue object, but I couldn't figure out a way to use it without some backup. Just plopping it down in some cell didn't feel right. So I had to give a reason for the ogre being stone. A botched stoneskin spell! But just putting a spell tome of stoneskin in his hand wasn't enough, I had to give a reason for it. Enter Dend's journal, and Dend the Ogre Mage was born. Like the player, he was an Aspiring Mage who got in over his head. Was it necessary to come up with this extra crap, bloating the mod with stuff most people are never going to see in the first place, and not incidentally increase the size of the upload which with my internet connection is a pain in the ass? No, it was not necessary, but I had a compulsion to do it anyway.

[DeepBlueFrog]

Very interesting... I will have to mull over the backstory about the Nord Queen some more after this thread.

 

The story I have in mind so far goes like this:

 

"The Gauldur legend was so dangerous that Harald instigated an age-long attempt to erase them from history, though this ultimately proved unsuccessful." (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Harald )

 

- King Harald had a first born daughter, who was supposed to become queen after his death

- Gauldur was her tutor. It isn't clear if she truly loved him or fell under one of his spells, but he was grooming her to become a powerful archmage queen when the time was right (with him at her side of course)

- Gauldur's own sons resented her influence on their father. After they killed him and split the amulet between them, they did the same with the future queen.. that is, they violated her and split her remains between three tombs (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gauldur) 

- This explains King Harald's fury at the sons of Gauldur 

 

So in that scenario, it isn't so much that the Nord Queen ruled... but she was promised to rule and never was. That unfinished business and the powerful magic she gained under Gauldur's tutelage are enough to bring her back from the dead so she can finally complete her destiny.