Why do you use modmanagers at all?

[ToJKa]

Because load order, install order and file conflict management is ridiculously easy with Wrye Bash.

If you do a load order with nothing but BAsh INstallers, just like me you'll wonder why other managers even exist

[NickNozownik]

MO has its advantages, but I can't be fucked with it. Just read every mod description carefully and dump everything into your data folder.

 

I didn't reinstall Skyrim in years, everything was fine. Then LOOT or other program automatically "organized" my load order. Some saves got toasted and some mods didn't work at all. Uninstalled LOOT immediately.

[Captain Cobra]

Started using Wrye Bash for bashed patches, and continue using it because it just works.  All the power you could ever want.

[nightshad]

try uninstalling a dlc sized mod with over 10 gbs worth of content and folders without mod manager or nnm then tell ask us why we use it :3

[Hippeus]

I love using mod managers. Originally I only used NMM. However, I took the time to learn how to use MO through tutorial videos and experience. Since then I've stuck with MO as it allows me to keep my Skyrim folder clean and see file conflicts I can address properly.

 

 

Started using Wrye Bash for bashed patches, and continue using it because it just works.  All the power you could ever want.

 

Same. I started using Wyre Bash for that same purpose. 

 

 

try uninstalling a dlc sized mod with over 10 gbs worth of content and folders without mod manager or nnm then tell ask us why we use it :3

 

 

 

Yeah exactly. It can easily mess up Skyrim without knowing all what you need to delete. With MO I don't have to worry about it not cleaning Skyrim's folder properly like say manually or NMM. Cause even NMM can miss things. 

 

 

[Gameplayer]

It seems sad that we have to topics like this one.

[Captain Cobra]

Ebin post my man.

[RenaSan]

It seems sad that we have to topics like this one.

 

ikr, I was almost not sure if I should take the question serious at all. Specially with the way it was worded. 

 

Actually, just today out of nowhere I had issues with some mods and I was like 'uh fuck' and all I had to do was right click, re-install them and they were fine again. Not sure how they got messed up without me even touching them, but I am glad I didnt have to do more than just re-install them. HDT being one of them.

[Kinky]

I can switch from heavily modded Skyrim to profile with only mods that i need for testing in one click in MO. Try to do that manualy.

[Saviorsrd]

Right, other people have brought it up, but let me illustrate with a slightly above-average day of playing Skyrim for me.

 

1)  Okay, looks like I've got nothing better to do all day.  Let's fire it up, check for updates to my mods.  (Scanning the list)  Hmm...looks like new version of my ENB plugin, but nothing major....still, I was gonna make a new character, let's go ahead and install it.

 

2)  Checking the mod description, looks like Boris made a new ENB while I was away.  Let's get that done while we're at it.

 

3)  Right, making my character....friend in IM is curious, so let's flip over to screen archery mods and find a good outfit....hmm...nothing's really clicking.  *Quick check on Nexus and LL, download, install, some time finding a good spot to take appropriate screenshots* 

 

4)  Hmm....the ENB seems to be performing better than I remember.  Let's port this over to my Vanilla profile, run some performance and stability tests...

 

5)  Not quite smooth enough for actual gameplay, but there's a mid-quality version of this ENB, so let's install that too.  *Testest*  Okay, that's acceptable.  Activate the ENB-based plugins on all profiles, deactivate the old ones.

 

6)  May as well grab the outfits for use on the LL profile while I'm at it.  Plugin count's getting a little close, better do and test a merge.  *Have a special profile just for this*.

 

7)  Okay, that's done.  It's about lunchtime, so just to be safe let's rebuild DynDOLOD for the screen archery profile and the LL one.  Can probably skip it for the others, just make a note.

 

8)  Back from lunch, DynDOLOD's not quite finished, so let's see...nope, no new content, and I'm up for some questing.  *Switch to regular play profile, grab my Nord warrior and go beat up some Draugr for a bit.*

 

9)  Right, I think I'm in the mood for something a little more risque now.  Double check whether my LL mods have seen updates, get them in.  I was gonna start a new character anyway, so this is where I import my Racemenu preset from earlier and get  started.  *Typical LL stuff happens*

 

10)  Huh, someone's mentioning a new quest mod....well, I'm getting bored, let's drop it in.  *Does so*

 

11)  Gonna need to DynDOLOD again, for the main game this time.  Oh well, I should probably exercise and see about dinner.

 

12)  And we're back - DynDOLOD finishing up, so let's see what this quest is about....

 

I'd estimate I played - actually played - Skyrim for about six-eight hours.  All while doing the equivalent of completely ripping out my mod setup four times, and adjusting it four more.  THAT is what a Mod Manager buys you.

 

If I may, might I suggest an alternate explanation for why you see more questions about people using mod managers than not?  It's because, on the whole, mod managers are the suggested method, and most newcomers take that advice to heart.  A mod manager doesn't make newbie errors go away, or magically grant them the expertise to fix them, but it does make them easier for others to see and to help fix, can draw attention to potential issues, and give more advanced users the power to do things that could only be dreamed of in the Oblivion days.  

[blind dog]

I have noticed that mostly MO users are having problems. Meanwhile I open up my NMM and laugh at them.

 

Pretty hilarious considering about 20% of all skyrim mods won't even install under NMM at all, period, much less work after being installed.

 

The reason to use MO at all is virtualization.  Anything can be removed or modified at will, instantly. Any mod set up can be tested at will, the parts of that mod can be submodified at any time with one click.

 

This is also the reason not to use MO. FNIS, Racemenu, NIO, and several other mods like SMP don't work at 100% with MO, and have become increasingly unstable, especially in mod heavy environments. While Tannin could fix most of these things, he has chosen to ignore them in favor of Fallout injection and virtualization.

 

In a perfect world you would use MO to build your list, streamline it and de-conflict it with Wrye Bash and then install it manually in that exact order for highest stability. In this perfect world mods would never update.

[mptron]

 

I have noticed that mostly MO users are having problems. Meanwhile I open up my NMM and laugh at them.

 

Pretty hilarious considering about 20% of all skyrim mods won't even install under NMM at all, period, much less work after being installed.

 

The reason to use MO at all is virtualization.  Anything can be removed or modified at will, instantly. Any mod set up can be tested at will, the parts of that mod can be submodified at any time with one click.

 

This is also the reason not to use MO. FNIS, Racemenu, NIO, and several other mods like SMP don't work at 100% with MO, and have become increasingly unstable, especially in mod heavy environments. While Tannin could fix most of these things, he has chosen to ignore them in favor of Fallout injection and virtualization.

 

In a perfect world you would use MO to build your list, streamline it and de-conflict it with Wrye Bash and then install it manually in that exact order for highest stability. In this perfect world mods would never update.

 

 

The reason is not MO. I have a very heavily modded game (200+) mods, and I have never had a problem with FNIS or Racemenu. I have never encountered any mod that didn't work within MO. Granted some can be tricky to set up, but if you have a good understanding of how MO works, they install and function just fine.

 

@dzeni As for why MO user have problems (I'll take your word cause I don't see this myself), it's because they don't have a good understanding of how the program works. Before I started I read several good tutorials from /r/skyrimmods and S.T.E.P on how to set up Skyrim for modding and I have never had any troubles. 99% of all problems I see happen because the users didn't read all the directions.

[mptron]

Seriously, I have to ask this...

Looking at the technical support section, I come to the conclusion, that using any modmanger makes things only worse. This doesn't work, that conflicts, there seem to be problems that I have never encountered myself. And I am not using any modmanger. (Mostly because NMM didn't work, and I didn't know about MO when I set everything up) 

 

Yes, I have to be twice as careful when installing mods, and check twice if anything gets overwritten or not, and sometimes I even have to backup my whole folder just to be sure that I can go back to a working state if I do something wrong - but then, I backup my folder from time to time anyway, as I am not willing to go through the painful way of reinstalling every mod one by one should I ever get a new computer or stuff. 

 

But - my game runs stable. No crashes, no nothing. Scripts run smoothly, and my game is highly modded and highly scripted. 

 

So, where would be the advantage of using MO? It even makes installing texture packs or similar 'small' mods or addons a pain in the ass. I wouldn't even know where to put SKSE plugins and all that stuff, while I know exactly where to put my stuff in the usual installation folder. 

 

Am I just 'lucky', is it because I know what I am doing, or are modmanagers really as useless and conflict-building as they seem to be in my eyes? 

 

First, using a Mod manager doesn't make things worse, especially Mod Organizer. The problems people have are generally conflicts between the mods themselves.

 

Second, if most people were as careful as you in checking their mods they wouldn't have nearly as many problems.

 

As for the advantage of using MO, your statement that "it makes installing texture packs or similar small mods or addons a pain in the ass" is completely erroneous. Quite the opposite. MO makes it a breeze, even when combining multiple overlapping packs. MO displays all conflicting files and you can simply choose which ones you want to hide. As for where you would put SKSE, anything that goes in the data folder can be managed by Mod Organizer.

 

If you're very careful and know exactly what mods you want, and exactly what order you want to install them in, then you may not see the value of a mod manager, but if you're like 99% of modders our there and want to try different combinations on the fly, MO is the best tool for the job in my opinion. Installing and uninstalling mods is a easy and clicking a checkbox, and swapping the order is drag and drop.

 

Of course you mentioned that you make a complete backup of your data folder to preserve a stable state O.o. Huge waste of space. With a mod manager you simply have one mod profile with you chosen mods and plugins active in a stable order. You can then copy the profile and make adjustments that wont affect your "stable" profile. If you ever need to go back, it's there.

 

Personally I see more people having trouble with NMM, but I've never used it so I can't comment. I read up on both and thought MO was the superior tool. NMM installs all mods directly into your skyrim data folder (overwriting when there is a file conflict). MO keeps all mods separate, from the data folder and each other, no files are actually overwritten. MO manages all the files virtually, and in case of file conflicts (like 2 mods changing the same texture) it only load the file you decide should take priority.

 

So honestly, I say: "Why wouldn't you use a mod manager? and do all that work manually?"

 

[blind dog]

 

 

I have noticed that mostly MO users are having problems. Meanwhile I open up my NMM and laugh at them.

 

Pretty hilarious considering about 20% of all skyrim mods won't even install under NMM at all, period, much less work after being installed.

 

The reason to use MO at all is virtualization.  Anything can be removed or modified at will, instantly. Any mod set up can be tested at will, the parts of that mod can be submodified at any time with one click.

 

This is also the reason not to use MO. FNIS, Racemenu, NIO, and several other mods like SMP don't work at 100% with MO, and have become increasingly unstable, especially in mod heavy environments. While Tannin could fix most of these things, he has chosen to ignore them in favor of Fallout injection and virtualization.

 

In a perfect world you would use MO to build your list, streamline it and de-conflict it with Wrye Bash and then install it manually in that exact order for highest stability. In this perfect world mods would never update.

 

 

The reason is not MO. I have a very heavily modded game (200+) mods, and I have never had a problem with FNIS or Racemenu. I have never encountered any mod that didn't work within MO. Granted some can be tricky to set up, but if you have a good understanding of how MO works, they install and function just fine.

 

@dzeni As for why MO user have problems (I'll take your word cause I don't see this myself), it's because they don't have a good understanding of how the program works. Before I started I read several good tutorials from /r/skyrimmods and S.T.E.P on how to set up Skyrim for modding and I have never had any troubles. 99% of all problems I see happen because the users didn't read all the directions.

 

 

 

 

eating raw meat in the wild is great... for me

 

That's nice cause, you're a dinosaur. For those whom aren't dinosaurs, I can see several flaws in your blanket statement, namely "I". (and salmonella)

 

Fore and Expired alike have stated publicly about issues with MO and their two most popular products, I have seen FNIS (6.1)fail first-hand to find where to re-mount anything with a clean and previously working (5.5) install, up until said behavior files were stuck in manually, which somewhat obviates the point of automated installs.

 

So to go with your theme of "I", I have, in fact had the exact issue fore has mentioned on this very forum, and seeing as the install worked before and didn't afterwards, a clear chain of events can be surmised, and "works great for me" isn't really a salient fix for that, never mind any other quibbles with virtualized data spaces.

[Gameplayer]

 

 

 

I have noticed that mostly MO users are having problems. Meanwhile I open up my NMM and laugh at them.

 

Pretty hilarious considering about 20% of all skyrim mods won't even install under NMM at all, period, much less work after being installed.

 

The reason to use MO at all is virtualization.  Anything can be removed or modified at will, instantly. Any mod set up can be tested at will, the parts of that mod can be submodified at any time with one click.

 

This is also the reason not to use MO. FNIS, Racemenu, NIO, and several other mods like SMP don't work at 100% with MO, and have become increasingly unstable, especially in mod heavy environments. While Tannin could fix most of these things, he has chosen to ignore them in favor of Fallout injection and virtualization.

 

In a perfect world you would use MO to build your list, streamline it and de-conflict it with Wrye Bash and then install it manually in that exact order for highest stability. In this perfect world mods would never update.

 

 

The reason is not MO. I have a very heavily modded game (200+) mods, and I have never had a problem with FNIS or Racemenu. I have never encountered any mod that didn't work within MO. Granted some can be tricky to set up, but if you have a good understanding of how MO works, they install and function just fine.

 

@dzeni As for why MO user have problems (I'll take your word cause I don't see this myself), it's because they don't have a good understanding of how the program works. Before I started I read several good tutorials from /r/skyrimmods and S.T.E.P on how to set up Skyrim for modding and I have never had any troubles. 99% of all problems I see happen because the users didn't read all the directions.

 

 

 

 

eating raw meat in the wild is great... for me

 

That's nice cause, you're a dinosaur. For those whom aren't dinosaurs, I can see several flaws in your blanket statement, namely "I". (and salmonella)

 

Fore and Expired alike have stated publicly about issues with MO and their two most popular products, I have seen FNIS (6.1)fail first-hand to find where to re-mount anything with a clean and previously working (5.5) install, up until said behavior files were stuck in manually, which somewhat obviates the point of automated installs.

 

So to go with your theme of "I", I have, in fact had the exact issue fore has mentioned on this very forum, and seeing as the install worked before and didn't afterwards, a clear chain of events can be surmised, and "works great for me" isn't really a salient fix for that, never mind any other quibbles with virtualized data spaces.

 

 

Mod Organizer....

 

So because there was a behavior file in a custom NPC named Vilja, PCEA 2 wouldn't work....OF course there was a bit of questionable professionalism...

 

In a nutshell.

Vilja had a behavior file in it...FNIS Toolset for users would not distinguish it properly as it was in a BSA file.

So FNIS for Users would fail when run from MO.

 

Thing is this...

 

PCEA 2.0 sucks.

 

PCEA is better.

 

 

Stop using Vilja anyway, the recording isn't good enough and well your whole argument against a good modding tool is that you get a failure between two mods that are not that great to begin with.

 

Both of those mods take some scripting overhead and well are fluff....There are also better alternatives that don't present the same issue.

 

Here on Loverslab downloaders are often going to want to place some mods in their load orders that will be quite demanding enough....

They would be better off not using Vilja or PCEA 2.0 anyway.

 

___________________________

 

Arguing to manually install everything is pure madness.

 

The amount of personal time saved using MO is beyond count.

I for one know a thing or two about how to dissect how a mod functions and how it was made, and what to expect it too do in the pool of mods that I have installed on my system.

 

Should we get a link for the argument that FORE and the MO guy had?  No I think not, and likely it would get deleted here since that's drawing some bad politics into LoversLab.

 

Anyway, just my opinion.

The issues that you had with MO and animations are easily worked around if you know what your doing and its no reason to suffer through having to ZIP up a known working installation.

[blind dog]

You would have a more salient argument, but those aren't the only two programs with issues, and I did clarify my statement with "in a perfect world", which we clearly do not live in, which is why MO is both blessing and curse.

 

Secondly, you should probably fix your broken shadows and decapitation/clipping issues in s666's UUNP high poly conversion before stating stuff such as 

 

 

 

I for one know a thing or two about how to dissect how a mod functions and how it was made, and what to expect it too do in the pool of mods that I have installed on my system.

 

and 

 

 

 

professionalism

 

Ahem.

 

These are all issues Tannin is known to be aware of, and chooses not to address, and they are not "unfixable" or "too time consuming for one person to manage" or such things as that, they are works in progress, which as you say, you know a thing or two about, and that is my point.

 

[Gameplayer]

You would have a more salient argument, but those aren't the only two programs with issues, and I did clarify my statement with "in a perfect world", which we clearly do not live in, which is why MO is both blessing and curse.

 

Secondly, you should probably fix your broken shadows and decapitation/clipping issues in s666's UUNP high poly conversion before stating stuff such as 

 

 

 

I for one know a thing or two about how to dissect how a mod functions and how it was made, and what to expect it too do in the pool of mods that I have installed on my system.

 

and 

 

 

 

professionalism

 

Ahem.

 

These are all issues Tannin is known to be aware of, and chooses not to address, and they are not "unfixable" or "too time consuming for one person to manage" or such things as that, they are works in progress, which as you say, you know a thing or two about, and that is my point.

 

Nah, I don't think so.

 

Not going to spend another minute on that mod, and if you want it fixed you go fix it.

 

So what have you provided to the modding community?

I sure would like to play around with your mod that you built with your unpaid time.

Perhaps afterwards I could value your input that much more.

 

[blind dog]

For one thing I haven't provided the advice that mods downloaded "suck" because they they are incompatible with another mod.

 

For the second thing if you had bothered to read without bias, you would see I did not use positive or negative connotations either way in either regard.

 

For the third thing, s666 provided the base that you covered in this instance, so weighing our respective contributions, if any, is only slightly disingenuous at best. You're the one using bad and good as absolute values. I haven't downloaded either mod so I can't weigh in on them at all, except to note that apparently there are yet two more mods that don't work with Mod Organizer correctly.

 

 

 

contributions

 

I wasn't aware there was an exclusive club of master opinions that override anyone else's.

 

The above "sucky" mods have 580,000 downloads and 5500 endorsements, so you'll forgive me If I weigh your opinion the same as any other player of the game and no more.

 

The actuality is I should be thanking you, because I installed Crashfixes and Bugfixes and tried Restringer based on downloading your initial UUNP conversion, and I mean that without any sarcasm.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Guys, please keep the tones down.

 

Thread locked.