Survival experience

[Lendova]

 

Does survival mode do anything to stealth? Because it kinda bugs me that enemies just forget that their comrade's head just exploded (not just an FO4 thing). Going from [CAUTION] to [uNDETECTED] should mean either killing everyone or sneaking away.

 

Stealth has always been overpowering in Bethesda games due to their AI. Bethesda really need to enhance their AI and possibly make them flat-out look for you rather than wandering around, getting picked off.

 

Tbh, just the idiots defend this. Nothing designed to support, justify such a save system. Its not just too punishing, but breaks the immersion as well.

 

 

Honestly, I like the challenge and beds are everywhere in the wasteland so it shouldn't be too hard to save, for the most part at least.  Then again, I'm your crazy "check everywhere" type of guy, so I know the map very well and where a lot of the beds, workbenches, etc are at. Ha-ha.

 

Though, I do agree that it will be too punishing for some players, easily. But not immersion breaking. I find normal saving as immersion breaking. Saving only during rest makes a bit more sense than the "pause menu". At least, how I look at it myself. ("Oh, I feel like that something bad might happen in that building, I'ma rest here for a moment and get myself ready for a fight just in-case.")...

 

Gotta remember, if this was the real deal... We would be resting a lot due to fighting being a very tiresome activity, and due to wounds needing to be healed.

 

 

Manual and quick save takes takes away a moment, almost like its never happened, meanwhile saving in a bed often an extra trip just to save the progress, which can delay your current goal up to a few minutes.

Its not a challenge as long as random death can happen beyound our control, which is not rare. Its not too punishing just for some players, its too punishing for everybody. You just care less.

 

But thats "just" the save system. As is said earlier, many aspect of the game should be tweaked for survival. Atm its not feels better than a 3rd party mod, which always adds to the game, but suffers from serious issues.

 

The most annoying for me is the highly limited gear selection.

 

The current game and the mod:

[Guest Mogie56]

I don't get it, if survival mode is so terrible for you why use it? you knew (or should have known) what you were getting, it was explained early on. revert back to 1.4 and be done with it. the Survival Mode update doesn't allow for mods because it isn't supposed to, that also was explained. Survival Mode is just that and nothing more. if it allowed mods then it would defeat it's purpose. Sometimes I think people don't really know what immersion means or have the wrong idea about it. and by the way, though I do think Survival mode is great, that in no way makes me a fucking idiot. you might want to "think" before you spew next time.

[Lendova]

Not really, nor a few level of expression is enough too see how its plays out later and there are still some things, what I want to check. I could opt out from beta at the first death from a molotov then I had almost no idea about it.

My statement not changed nor going to change.

[ecto1]

Been playing with Survival Mode for a few days now and thought I would add my two cents to the discussion here.

 

Fast Travel (or lack thereof)

 

No fast travel doesn't bother me much, I find it to be fairly immersive. Though to be fair, I also put thousands of hours into DayZ and running from one side of the map to the other in Fallout 4 is nothing in comparison! No fast travel has also caused me to discover a few locations I hadn't previously which was pretty cool.

 

Bed Saving

 

I don't care for the bed saving. Let me be clear and say that I don't think it's too hard, I just find the system very clunky and almost tacked on. A common scenario for me while playing survival mode is this: I'll do my usual 8 hour sleep cycle, wake up in the morning and eat/drink and head out to complete some missions. It doesn't make sense to me that a couple of in-game hours later after clearing the external guard at Corvega that I would choose to take a nap before heading inside thus giving my enemies more time to react to what's happened and prepare for me. From a RP stand point it often just doesn't make sense. It also isn't causing me to "think more" about my choices. The instances where I would look for a bed to take a nap for no reason (other than to save my game) are the same instances where I would save my game normally. Maybe it's because I've played Fallout games for so long now, I'm just used to saving often.

 

I think my biggest issue with it however is that it seems to directly conflict with the intention of removing fast travel. Not being able to fast travel is meant to encourage exploration but more often than not, because of the save mechanic it just doesn't work out that way (in my experience). A common scenario for me while playing is having just completed a mission, I'll be on my way to turn it in and I'll hear some raiders and super mutants fighting around the corner (just for example). Normally I would go check it out but on survival mode and the threat of losing all my progress, I say "NOPE!" and keep running the other way. Because of the tedium of the save mechanic, I simply avoid unnecessary conflict and danger so that I won't have to deal with the mechanic.

 

That all being said, I feel like survival mode needs something like these features otherwise it's just mindlessly eating/drinking/sleeping whenever the icon pops up. I feel like the save mechanic just needs to be iterated on so it's less tedious, less immersion breaking and has better synergy with other features.

[Guest Mogie56]

Only downside I could see of the Sleep/Save feature is if it was a crashing mess like previous titles but it isn't, or at least it hasn't been for me. To me it's there most stable to date. but anyway. I was also used to saving often but only because I didn't want to loose my progress to crashes. I'm not having to worry about that this time around  

I don't go bumbling into places unprepared as before, no more spray and pray. I'll have my fun with it then get back into mods when I've had my fill. But I quite like Survival Mode. Not at all what I had expected for all the negativity it's gotten since it's release.

[Jusey1]

Only downside I could see of the Sleep/Save feature is if it was a crashing mess like previous titles but it isn't, or at least it hasn't been for me. To me it's there most stable to date. but anyway. I was also used to saving often but only because I didn't want to loose my progress to crashes. I'm not having to worry about that this time around

I don't go bumbling into places unprepared as before, no more spray and pray. I'll have my fun with it then get back into mods when I've had my fill. But I quite like Survival Mode. Not at all what I had expected for all the negativity it's gotten since it's release.

A lot of people has been saying that Fallout 4 seems to be the most stabled Bethesda game to-date.

[Regallag]

Only downside I could see of the Sleep/Save feature is if it was a crashing mess like previous titles but it isn't, or at least it hasn't been for me. To me it's there most stable to date. but anyway. I was also used to saving often but only because I didn't want to loose my progress to crashes. I'm not having to worry about that this time around

I don't go bumbling into places unprepared as before, no more spray and pray. I'll have my fun with it then get back into mods when I've had my fill. But I quite like Survival Mode. Not at all what I had expected for all the negativity it's gotten since it's release.

 

 

A lot of people has been saying that Fallout 4 seems to be the most stabled Bethesda game to-date.

 

"Most stable Bethesda game" is not a high bar  . I had three CTDs outside of Revere Station and I would have rage quit and given up on the game if it wasn't for quick saves. I save whenever I leave a settlement, city, etc. and when I die I reload from there. Quick saves and auto saves are for CTDs and times when I have to quit playing and deal with real life right the fuck now. A good compromise would be if the game reloaded from bed saves after death. Sure it could be exploited easily by quitting to desktop (possibly using task manager or qqq in the console) and loading a non bed save, but why bother playing survival mode if you're going to cheat it? I just started a new character with weak combat skills on very hard difficulty and I'm disappointed with how rarely she's died. A real survival mode overhaul needs to take into account instability, mods, and the fact that real life sometimes interrupts video games.

[Guest Mogie56]

Mods as they are play a big part in stability or lack there of. I'm only speaking on non-modded survival mode. I've only encountered one crash while modded.

And of course it isn't a high bar, I know of no game that doesn't crash either by hardware limitations, background interference (drivers), user error or you just got up on the wrong side of the bed that day. If rage quitting is an option for one crash maybe video games should be avoided all together.

[Guest]

So, I'll never be able to play Survival mode WITH mods?

 

I mean, I understand if they don't want us to mess with the balance, but I just wont play without armor, hair or UI mods...

[greyscale]

So, I'll never be able to play Survival mode WITH mods?

 

I mean, I understand if they don't want us to mess with the balance, but I just wont play without armor, hair or UI mods...

 

Right, go into your documents/my games/fallout4 and find the Fallout.ini, add the line sStartingConsoleCommand=bat autoexec

under the [General] section.

 

Next find your Fallout 4 game folder where the Fallout4.exe is located and create a new Text Document and name it autoexec

 

Inside it add the lines: 

 

hlp "mod name"

 

For every extra .esp mod you have, you only need quotes if it's a mod name with space in it.

example:

 

hlp CBBE

hlp AzarPonytailHairstyles

 

 

This works fine for me, and I've been able to play with mods in survival even with the patches.

[Joomla]

just yesterday i got stuck in animation where i should have put the core to the power armor but instead my character never did. i felt it was totally justified for me to be forced to reload back about 15 minutes and do whole concord cleaning quest again just because my character decided it didnt fancy placing the core inside the armor.

 

if i had been in normal mode there would have been auto save literally the moment i exit outside giving me less than 10 seconds of lost play time due to glitch. now i reverted back to normal fallout and waiting for mod that simply adds needs.

[Lendova]

 

So, I'll never be able to play Survival mode WITH mods?

 

I mean, I understand if they don't want us to mess with the balance, but I just wont play without armor, hair or UI mods...

 

Right, go into your documents/my games/fallout4 and find the Fallout.ini, add the line sStartingConsoleCommand=bat autoexec

under the [General] section.

 

Next find your Fallout 4 game folder where the Fallout4.exe is located and create a new Text Document and name it autoexec

 

Inside it add the lines: 

 

hlp "mod name"

 

For every extra .esp mod you have, you only need quotes if it's a mod name with space in it.

example:

 

hlp CBBE

hlp AzarPonytailHairstyles

 

 

This works fine for me, and I've been able to play with mods in survival even with the patches.

 

This method can (always?) cause scrap/junk bug. Hlp feature have this issue since 1.4.

There are 2 possible solution to avoid this, check smwmm comments section.

 

[Lendova]

You can now enable mods for survival in game! And download as well.

[ferrousae]

 

 

 

Yeah I just really dislike it tied to sleep. If I want my PC to roam for 20 hours till coming home I don't want to die just before home and have to repeat it. So I would likely find myself going to places to sleep more and more often just to save which for me defeats the point. I personally don't find being forced to repeat the same content since the last save a good system. Which is why I prefer a lot of mods like Death Alternative, Defeat, etc things that in game punishes my character for losing with out me having to repeat the same content.

 

 

Combining the Survival mode with a Death Alternative sounds like a wonderful idea.

 

And it's perfect for this corner of the modverse...

[pipdude]

Just my 10 cents. But, I suspect that the appeal of a "Survival Mode" isn't about difficulty or even immersion necessarily. It lends to unpredictable circumstances and makes the game more replayable.

 

The vanilla playthrough is linear. Once you get through it, you're kind of done. But, if its a game just to survive and you ignore the quests, you never know what you'll have to do to make it or where you'll end up.

 

My favorite moments in these types of games draw on that concept. When you have to make decisions out of necessity and end up on a path you didn't expect.

 

There's kind of a limit to that also though in that there's no clear end/accomplishment. No goal or pay-off. So, you just sort of eventually get bored with one playthrough and start over to roll the dice again.

 

Once all of the tools are in place, I'm going to look into the possibility of adding a layer of game mechanics that will make the game more dynamic each time but also include end-game goals or payoffs.

[crusher]

I've been plugging the DA idea at the official forums, where you never have to go through the 'save -n- load cycle', but just get thrown deeper and deeper into emergent, unpredictable scenarios. The worse things get, the more stuff you lose, perk points, exp, levels and gear. You don't really have to reload or re-roll, the game re-rolls your character for you; or you get rolled by the game.  Saving would be constant, but under the hood; where you'd never reload from death, only load when logging into game or usual ctd stuff. But load checkpoints would be constant and steam saved, server saved etc.. 

 

You survive by not getting beaten backwards by the progressing mechanics typical of rpg. Death Alternative styled events do this really well in Skyrim. I never re-load a save, unless the game crashes -- which is often.  

[DFSL]

Survival mode would make sense if only the AI wasn't so patently stupid and the game mechanics weren't so rough around the corners. It's impossible to take seriously the game when companions are as dumb as rocks and the engine has to resort to teleporting them constantly. NPCs seem uncapable of navigating properly and their total disregard of heights is alarming. At least enemies don't seem to teleport when stuck like in the previous games.

[nIn nIn nIn]

Rolled a new character for the new patch (and survivor mode) and fuck me but it is intense. Still in Sanctuary getting used to the new limitations and stuff, built my own bed and first night I sleep 6 hours I get a parasite infection. This is my own bed, using the "This is my bed" mod. Brutal.

 

Now I have to go looking for a doctor or some antibiotics. See how long I can survive.

[Cozza]

Survival mode can be summed up by my diary like entry.

 

 

 

 

Day 7 in the wasteland. 

I decide to head to Diamond city to find Shaun. Get there pretty ok. Invovle myself in the super mutant fight outside Diamond City. Win that. Go looting stuff, step on land mine. Die

 

Back to Sanctuary.

 

Day 7 in the wasteland

I decide to goto Diamond city to find Shaun. Just outside Cambridge police station, walk into Super Mutant patrol. Turn around and run away. Mr Gutsy looking for communists. Kills me

Back to Sanctuary.

 

Day 7 in the wasteland

I decide to just explore around Sanctuary. Loot, get food. Simple. Try to ambush raider camp on otherside of water from Sanctuary. Get 3 molotovs thrown at me, die.

 

Back to Sanctuary.

 

Day 7 in the wasteland (again)

I decide to get my harden pipe sniper rifle. Ambush a raider camp across the water. Success, all dead. Now lets explore around the island. Kill a raider shooting some bottles, some dogs. A raider with a dead women on his bed, and some raiders by a power line. Go forward a little towards a blue tent. 2 mirelurks pop out, cripple my leg and then kill me

Back to Sanctuary.

 

 

 

 

[crusher]

lol, @Cozza, 

 

I haven't gone beyond red rocket, still thinking about the best build -- maybe endurance and stealth (agility) -- sneaky, go unnoticed; when found, harder to kill. Though maybe a sprint build is best -- just run.. run, run all the way. 

 

Going to have to at least cut the timescale compression by half; the constant sleeping, eating and drinking messages are really annoying.  

[Lendova]

lol, @Cozza, 

 

I haven't gone beyond red rocket, still thinking about the best build -- maybe endurance and stealth (agility) -- sneaky, go unnoticed; when found, harder to kill. Though maybe a sprint build is best -- just run.. run, run all the way. 

 

Going to have to at least cut the timescale compression by half; the constant sleeping, eating and drinking messages are really annoying.  

Make a build what you interested in, you going to experience a lot of random/unfair death anyhow for a while.

[Bloodfang]

I haven't touched the new mode for various reasons :

 

- If you play Institute you're doomed because they nerfed the teleport a lot. Whereas any other player can use Vertibirds and go anywhere in short time.

- Console disabled, I could take a mod, but honestly why the hell would Bethesda disable it ? It's vital for a buggy game.

 

And I think that's pretty much it, I don't like the save on bed too, the game is relatively stable but unlike games like Dark Souls, you usually don't come across a bugged area or something after hours of gameplay.

 

I heard they also disabled achievements if you had mods... Is Bethesda really unware of how many people just don't play the vanilla game anymore ?

[crusher]

A weekend in survival mode, there are a few things I learned -- it's very easy to stay alive. But, you have to recon everything, best way to recon is to tap your VATS button; doing this reveals hidden threats when you move forward. Learn and follow known paths that you're comfortable with -- the train tracks between Concord and Diamond City for instance; it's easy to remember the spawn areas. 

 

The bed-save is ah, weird idea -- get Gopher's "Survival Quick Save" at minimum, sole survivor tends to spend too much time managing junk in pipboy, you'll be able to save after a heavy re-organization of inventory crap... I use "Transition Save" also. You will ctd more frequently if using any mods... I have very few installed (6ish, patches basically) and ctd is common.

 

Set Timescale to 6, or anything less than twenty -- eating and drinking at timescale 20 is absurd. Bethesda should play their own game from time to time ... be mindful of nearby shelter, for refuge during longer radstorms. 

 

I have one luxury mod installed -- Modern Firearms, has a very realistic feel: everyone is sporting deadly weapons, you get shot once you're dead. So, shoot first, always.  Stealth perks become very OP once you get into a rhythm. Get at least rank three in Sneak, so you'll not trip landmines -- you'll die from hidden traps and mines most of all -- recon with VATS reveals these often. 

 

Having a companion helps, Piper saved my life several times, when jumped by hidden enemy. Keep them close; they actually will -- watch your back.   

 

last, Bethesda really missed the boat on FO4, it should have had Multiplayer option (peer to peer) -- the first fully fledged sandbox shooter. Would be a genre forerunner.  

[Adorkable]

You will ctd more frequently if using any mods... I have very few installed (6ish, patches basically) and ctd is common.

 

That might be a problem on your end, though. I've got about 44 mods and I've had maybe three ctds in all my playtime.

[Melviclilith]

My time in survival mode is basically "never engage the damage sponge" and given that all enemies in the game are basically that....well you can see where my problem with it is. Currently my big story is in the Corvega factory where I snuck up behind a raider and used my upgraded double barrel shotgun, I got one sneak attack head shot and three other head shots, saw he lost less that 1/4 of his HP, and then got killed once he stood up and shot me with his hunting rifle once. I've also been ambushed by wild mongrels several times and watched as my pistols, rifles, and shotguns did nearly nothing to them. I think all in all just to justify me going to Corvega it took three attempts to get the quest started. Once was my fault, but the other two had me killed by random monster encounters where it was just one dog or hostile human against dogmeat and myself and my best weapons did chip damage at best.

 

I don't know, its nice to have to balance supplies and everything again but the trade off of never being able to fight, in a game almost exclusively dedicated to fighting, just makes it near impossible to really enjoy it or progress.