Did anyone notice that Elder Maxson was in Fallout 3?

[maybenexttime]

 

I could have sworn there was a Maxson kid back in the Capital Wasteland, and sure enough I found him. Can't believe he's just 20 years old but apparently some crazy shit happened between FO3 and FO4 for him to rise quickly up the ranks. 

 

Also he mentions things such as the west coast elders not trusting elder Lyon so it seems this was the start of him growing away from Elder Lyons belief. I thought it was interesting and neat, here's the video I posted if you want to see the complete interaction with him in FO3. 

[Benmc20]

And Sarah Lyons seems to be MIA too. (this boy had a crush on her)

 

 

But the problem is in the timeline. Normally, this guy would be far younger than actually (he had 10 to 12 years old, not 20-25). And between 2277 and 2282, there isn't much years ...

[maybenexttime]

And Sarah Lyons seems to be MIA too. (this boy had a crush on her)

 

 

But the problem is in the timeline. Normally, this guy would be far younger than actually (he had 10 to 12 years old, not 20-25). And between 2277 and 2282, there isn't much years ...

 

I meant he's 20 years old in FO4. He was promoted to elder at the age of 16.

 

Sarah Lyons is confirmed killed in action on Proctor Quinlan's terminal. 

[Sacremas]

It's confirmed that about ten years has passed since Fallout 3 (which means both that the date stated various places is probably wrong, and makes the character Kelogg about 108 years old). See the companion Macready, formerly Mayor Macready of Little Lamplight, who went on to marry Lamplight's nurse Susan, presumably in Big Town before they went to the Commonwealth.

 

While a bit of a propaganda spin to it, Proctor Quinlan's terminal gives a decent bio on Maxon. Seems he saved a brotherhood patrol at age 12, and defeated at deathclaw at 16, which is how he got his scar. It is very much a propaganda thing, so the true story could be very different.

 

What made him an Elder however was negotiating with the Outcasts and bringing them back into the fold, in the process presumably changing the DC Brotherhood from it's "save the Capital Wasteland" mission that led to the Outcasts leaving, this (along with his lineage, being the grandchild of Roger Maxon, founder of the BOS) led to the Elders back in the West promoting Maxon into the youngest Elder in BOS history, and putting him in charge of the East Coast Brotherhood.

[BoozeJunky]

I heard about some extra dialog being in found in the game's files which suggest the original Brotherhood path had options for the player talking down Maxson and potentially have an alliance between them and the Railroad - as well as letting Danse live and continue his duties as a Paladin. I kind of understand the route he's taken, considering how heavy the weight of his lineage and expectations are on him. He's pretty much the last best hope of the Brotherhood at this point, and only because they have no serious contenders for adversaries on the East Coast. Then Bethesda decided to have him leap head-first into a fight with a fairly powerful enemy... and since he can be killed in FO4, this pretty much means he's going to be written out of the story of future games. Who knows where that leaves the Brotherhood then. Their control over the Capital Wasteland sounds absolute, but they don't really have much in the way of a burgeoning society there the way the NCR formed. And by going back to the more isolationist tech hording ways of the West Coast brotherhood basically guarantees that it's only a matter of time before they're once again on the outside - fending off their interests from regional powers.

 

On the plus side, it does give some negative consequences to the actions of my Lone Wanderer from Fallout 3 - since I have TTW installed, one of her goals out West was to escort Star Paladin Cross to the Western Elders and try to convince them to re-establish contact. Maybe show them there is a better way, after the progress that had been made by Lyon's chapter. Opening the lines of communication, in hopes of changing the West Coast brotherhood, only served to spread their influence over the Capital Wasteland. Then the power she helped put in place, turned on her, and seized absolute and totalitarian control of everything she had fought so desperately to protect. Too late she would realize why Dr. Li didn't trust them, and how they were not so different than the Enclave forces she helped them push out. It gives her a good motivation to become dejected and disappear into her retreat in Big Mountain... probably eventually going crazy as she shuts out the outside world and absorbs herself into her experiments, just like the other brains did.

[maybenexttime]

Well, Bethesda can make the BoS ending for Fallout 4 the canon ending like they did for Fallout 3. Because technically you can kill Maxson in Fallout 3 if you betray the BoS.

[BoozeJunky]

Isn't it just kind of left ambiguous who died the Citadel attack though? The only one who died for certain is Sarah Lyons, because she turns on you and you gun her down. Everyone else just kind of... disappears, and isn't mentioned again. Elder Lyons is assumed to have died, since he's too old to wander very far from the Citadel, and was being written out anyhow. Maxon though, they could claim he was out on a training exercise at the time the missiles hit - kind of like how Moira is always somehow conveniently out of Megaton when you set off the bomb.

 

Then again, they do make reference to the Citadel in FO4, so unless they rebuilt it (and I don't see why they would, instead of just finding some other fortified structure to regroup in), I guess that does make the good ending canon.

[maybenexttime]

Yeah it's a bit ambiguous but it's assumed everyone dies at the Citedal. But again Bethesda said the BoS ending is canon the other ending is just for fun.

[Kaz Aanh]

He looks like a 20 yo neckbeard.

[Silver Wolf]

But again Bethesda said the BoS ending is canon the other ending is just for fun.

 

Great! Now the Commonwealth is ruled by Enclave 2.0!

[Kaz Aanh]

 

But again Bethesda said the BoS ending is canon the other ending is just for fun.

 

Great! Now the Commonwealth is ruled by Enclave 2.0!

 

 

I have always thought Bethesda went "too far" with the BoS ideals.

 

I mean they went full retard mode, I am kinda glad they are dicks again but some actions does not make sense at all.

[maybenexttime]

 

 

But again Bethesda said the BoS ending is canon the other ending is just for fun.

 

Great! Now the Commonwealth is ruled by Enclave 2.0!

 

 

I have always thought Bethesda went "too far" with the BoS ideals.

 

I mean they went full retard mode, I am kinda glad they are dicks again but some actions does not make sense at all.

 

 

Well I mean Maxwell does have some sort of good reason to be a hardass.

 

- He was promoted to an elder at the age of 16 because all of the previous elders were ineffective and weak (like Lyons as he mentions). He pretty much singlehandedly rebuilt the BoS on the East Coast. Him being super strict has helped him gain respect and recruits to the BoS. So in other words, him being a "dick" helped make a BoS a relevant force again in the Commonwealth. To him Lyons was pretty much holding back the BoS, hence why a BoS Outcasts were created. Maxwell managed to bring the Outcasts back into the BoS by going back to the strict BoS code.

 

- He also says that technology was the reason why the world is what it is. He wants to hoard or destroy technology that could cause the world to collapse again. He feels the burden and responsibility to make sure that humans doesn't destroy itself again. I mean the way the Institute was going about, replacing everyone on the surface with synths, Maxwell was sort of justified. He's not perfect by no means but I do think he is lesser of the two evils comparing him with the Institute.

 

I'm hoping future DLCs do explore Maxwell's background a bit more. For example, we know Maxwell had a crush on Sarah Lyons and now the fact she was dead. Perhaps, that triggered something inside of him to become the person who he is today. I'm hoping for a "Broken Steel" esque mod which explores the game after the main ending, although I do admit, it will be difficult to create. 

[Guest MonsterFish]

 

I'm hoping future DLCs do explore Maxwell's background a bit more. For example, we know Maxwell had a crush on Sarah Lyons and now the fact she was dead. Perhaps, that triggered something inside of him to become the person who he is today. I'm hoping for a "Broken Steel" esque mod which explores the game after the main ending, although I do admit, it will be difficult to create. 

 

 

It kinda makes me wonder the circumstances surrounding Sarah Lyons' death. My memory isn't too good (Thanks, ADHD) but from what I can remember the 'propaganda-ey' logs in Proctor Quinlans terminal doesn't actually say that she died, simply that she 'fell'. Maybe she didn't actually die, but was cast out from the BOS for reasons unknown. Perhaps Maxson is a bad guy in that situation and performed a coupe d'etat to overthrow Sarah Lyons and had her killed our expelled from the Brotherhood. But that's me being pedantic.

[Silver Wolf]

Firstly, his name is Maxson.

And second, not just Maxson being a dick, the whole BoS have always been dicks, tech-hoarding dicks. Except Lyons Brotherhood who actually use their power to protect the people of Capital Wasteland. Funny that, despite bing cut all communication and support from Lost Hills, Lyon's Brotherhood of steel is still considered an Official chapter, but not the outcast, even when there goal is true to the original BoS. This prove that how much Owyn Lyons is respected.

 

No matter how fancy his words be, it can never justify their action. 3 of 4 factions in FO4 are grey-choice, all have good intention, but questionable methods. But the BoS is the worst of all. If they rule the Commonwealth, this scenario will happen: they will hang Nicky's head on a spike for being a good-guy synth, then they will kill Curie and use her body as research material ( as Danse suggested), use force to take high-tech equipments from the people (as they always do), then they march to Goodneighbor and slaughter everyone there to "purify the Commonwealth from all abominations", they the super mutant next (even the good-guy mutants like Marcus, Fawkes, Lily.... from previous games) and this might lead to a war with the Minutemen - which as we all know are the true good guys of the commonwealth - because they PROTECT PEOPLE and have some sweet laser weapons which considered "high-tech".  Why? Because Maxson and his gangs are delusional, xenophobic and racist. I don't know if they are anything better than Enclave, well maybe, since the BoS only kill everything that isn't HUMAN while the Enclave kill everything that isn't PURE HUMAN..... Oh, and I forgot about Danse - the most loyal member of BoS.

 

And finally, speaking of power. The most powerful chapter of BoS is the guys who point their middle finger to Lost Hills: The Mid-western Brotherhood of Steel. They were able to achieve such great power because they are not racist/xenophonic. The mid-west bos accept anyone to join their ranks, from human to super mutants, ghouls, even sentient deathclaws and machine legionaires. They do rule harshly in their teritory, but they don't kill people just because they are not human.

[maybenexttime]

I have no idea why I typed MaxweLL lol. I think it may be due to auto correct.

 

Well you got to ask yourself this. Isn't it better to live under BoS rule even if they kill the good mutants over the Institute? The Institute was secretly killing humans and replacing them with synth counterpart. Think about all the good humans that will die. In addition the Institute were conducting experiments on them in their fev lab. Those good mutants will become just test experiments to the Institute. I'd have to say the Institute is worse in my opinion.

[Revuu]

I heard about some extra dialog being in found in the game's files which suggest the original Brotherhood path had options for the player talking down Maxson and potentially have an alliance between them and the Railroad - as well as letting Danse live and continue his duties as a Paladin.

 

I really, REALLY hope this gets modded back into the game.

[maybenexttime]

 

I heard about some extra dialog being in found in the game's files which suggest the original Brotherhood path had options for the player talking down Maxson and potentially have an alliance between them and the Railroad - as well as letting Danse live and continue his duties as a Paladin.

 

I really, REALLY hope this gets modded back into the game.

 

 

Same. Although the Institute and BoS are bound to kill each other in the future, there was no reason for them to unite to fight a common enemy. 

[Revuu]

 

 

I heard about some extra dialog being in found in the game's files which suggest the original Brotherhood path had options for the player talking down Maxson and potentially have an alliance between them and the Railroad - as well as letting Danse live and continue his duties as a Paladin.

 

I really, REALLY hope this gets modded back into the game.

 

Same. Although the Institute Railroad and BoS are bound to kill each other in the future, there was no reason for them to unite to fight a common enemy. 

 

Fixed for you?

 

Either way, I'm honestly holding off playing and completing the storyline because of this. While I don't support the Skyrim style of, "I am Archmage Lead Assassin Dovakhiin King of the North Vampire Companion Werewolf Leader Sir Bellend the Fourth and owner of that brothel", it's frustrating that things are so mutually exclusive in Fallout. 

 

I can understand being leaders of two opposing organisations being a bad move, but if you're just a footsoldier / supporter / not-leader of others, especially ones with common enemies, I don't see why you can't use your Charisma score to mould the story to get them to work together.

 

Otherwise, what's the point of charisma? All it does it net you extra exp half the time, which you'd probably save more of if you HADN'T bought the charisma points and put it into something useful. In terms of extra loot and avoiding combat, you can probably get the same result by murdering everyone and snorting the corpses for gear and murder-exp.

[leatherliz]

Otherwise, what's the point of charisma? All it does it net you extra exp half the time, which you'd probably save more of if you HADN'T bought the charisma points and put it into something useful. In terms of extra loot and avoiding combat, you can probably get the same result by murdering everyone and snorting the corpses for gear and murder-exp.

 

 

Perk-gating. Really, that's the primary function of SPECIAL at this point. Only Strength has any meaningful game mechanic interaction, imo. Sure, more xp from Intelligence is nice, but low Int doesn't really effect gameplay.... except for gating you out of Int perks. You just have to kill a few more things to get each level up.

 

Maybe if you rely really heavily on VATS, then maybe Perception and Agility make a noticeable difference. They didn't even make a huge difference in FO3/NV though, usually only enough to get one more shot off in VATS (at least with my preferred weapons...usually mod weapons).

[NoGround]

 

Otherwise, what's the point of charisma? All it does it net you extra exp half the time, which you'd probably save more of if you HADN'T bought the charisma points and put it into something useful. In terms of extra loot and avoiding combat, you can probably get the same result by murdering everyone and snorting the corpses for gear and murder-exp.

 

 

Perk-gating. Really, that's the primary function of SPECIAL at this point. Only Strength has any meaningful game mechanic interaction, imo. Sure, more xp from Intelligence is nice, but low Int doesn't really effect gameplay.... except for gating you out of Int perks. You just have to kill a few more things to get each level up.

 

Maybe if you rely really heavily on VATS, then maybe Perception and Agility make a noticeable difference. They didn't even make a huge difference in FO3/NV though, usually only enough to get one more shot off in VATS (at least with my preferred weapons...usually mod weapons).

 

I'd rather not get into the mechanics of the game, but each part of SPECIAL has it's own thing:

• Strength: Carry-weight and Melee damage. Spray control is also probable.
• Perception: Sweet spot on locks, accuracy in VATS, pickpocket chance <- headshots are hard in FO4, unlike FO3, w/o high perception
• Endurance: Health and resistances (effectively, more health = more radiation allowed).
• Charisma: Chance to succeed in special dialogue, trading efficiency, settler count per settlement
• Intelligence: Number of passwords displayed on terminals, exp gain
• Agility: Sneak Ability, AP count <- The difference is 15 AP per point. Sitting at 12 Agility will put you at 180 AP, while 2 puts you at 30
• Luck: everything, enemy accuracy, charisma chance, VATS chance, critical hit bar gain, cap find, ammo find, etc. etc.

So SPECIAL now governs your skills from the previous FO titles. Take what you want, but they're all pretty important mechanically, except maybe intelligence. Unless you want to hack. I'd say luck is one of the most important, just because of what you gain from it. There is literally no downside to picking luck over any other SPECIAL point.

 

Also, try Survival without Endurance or Agility. Good luck not dying instantly. It'll be a real struggle up until level 40 or so.

[Revuu]

 

I'd rather not get into the mechanics of the game, but each part of SPECIAL has it's own thing:

 

 

• Strength: Carry-weight and Melee damage. Spray control is also probable.
• Perception: Sweet spot on locks, accuracy in VATS, pickpocket chance <- headshots are hard in FO4, unlike FO3, w/o high perception
• Endurance: Health and resistances (effectively, more health = more radiation allowed).
• Charisma: Chance to succeed in special dialogue, trading efficiency, settler count per settlement
• Intelligence: Number of passwords displayed on terminals, exp gain
• Agility: Sneak Ability, AP count <- The difference is 15 AP per point. Sitting at 12 Agility will put you at 180 AP, while 2 puts you at 30
• Luck: everything, enemy accuracy, charisma chance, VATS chance, critical hit bar gain, cap find, ammo find, etc. etc.

So SPECIAL now governs your skills from the previous FO titles. Take what you want, but they're all pretty important mechanically, except maybe intelligence. Unless you want to hack. I'd say luck is one of the most important, just because of what you gain from it. There is literally no downside to picking luck over any other SPECIAL point.

 

Also, try Survival without Endurance or Agility. Good luck not dying instantly. It'll be a real struggle up until level 40 or so.

 

 

Ah. So, mechanically, all the SPECIAL stuff impacts on... mechanics. But in the end, not so much to do with the storyline. I'm talking Charisma here. Sure, you can change some peoples minds, but you can't actually impact on the storyline with your silver tongue.

 

Then again, given that Charisma checks are RNG based currently, that's a lot of save-spamming to try to get the desired result.

 

Brotherhood of Steel Spoiler

 

So you can persuade Maxson to let Danse live? Is that a charisma option or just a normal chat option? I haven't got that far yet, and don't intend to until someone mods it. Either way, the attitude of the BoS towards other factions does not change at all.

 

 

Investment in Charisma (which I would imagine to be the most narrative based stat) doesn't sway the storyline. The time you've spent digging up information, making connections... it's all for nothing. Surely there should be some sort of reward for forgoing min-maxing combat and spending time to pursue evidence and truth.

 

 

The one time I can remember previous conversations mattering was because I drugged up the old granny at Sanctuary and she gave me a passcode to deal with mobsters.

 

 

In the abstract, it reminds me a little bit of the Deus Ex boss fight fuckups. Create a game that allows you to talk, sneak and hack your way out of confrontations... then dump you against a man with miniguns for hands. "You shouldn't have roleplayed, kid! Min-max all the way!"

[NoGround]

Charisma is just there to make your life easier (or harder if it's too low), like every other SPECIAL stat. Actual story stuff, no, that just depends on the actions you take. Some other results can happen from a high charisma, but it will not ultimately restrict you from taking any other path.

[leatherliz]

I'd rather not get into the mechanics of the game, but each part of SPECIAL has it's own thing:

 

• Strength: Carry-weight and Melee damage. Spray control is also probable.
• Perception: Sweet spot on locks, accuracy in VATS, pickpocket chance <- headshots are hard in FO4, unlike FO3, w/o high perception
• Endurance: Health and resistances (effectively, more health = more radiation allowed).
• Charisma: Chance to succeed in special dialogue, trading efficiency, settler count per settlement
• Intelligence: Number of passwords displayed on terminals, exp gain
• Agility: Sneak Ability, AP count <- The difference is 15 AP per point. Sitting at 12 Agility will put you at 180 AP, while 2 puts you at 30
• Luck: everything, enemy accuracy, charisma chance, VATS chance, critical hit bar gain, cap find, ammo find, etc. etc.

So SPECIAL now governs your skills from the previous FO titles. Take what you want, but they're all pretty important mechanically, except maybe intelligence. Unless you want to hack. I'd say luck is one of the most important, just because of what you gain from it. There is literally no downside to picking luck over any other SPECIAL point.

 

Also, try Survival without Endurance or Agility. Good luck not dying instantly. It'll be a real struggle up until level 40 or so.

 

 

I think raw AP is the only thing you listed that isn't overwhelmingly, hilariously, overshadowed by perk power.

 

I only play on normal or easier because the control scheme for lefties is so fucked I have to use a controller, and I find it to be exceedingly difficult to aim with a controller. Doesn't help that my video card is outdated and I get a fair bit of frame lag.

[Captain Cobra]

Everything that isnt STR END or LUCK is a dump stat. 

[Sacremas]

 

In the abstract, it reminds me a little bit of the Deus Ex boss fight fuckups. Create a game that allows you to talk, sneak and hack your way out of confrontations... then dump you against a man with miniguns for hands. "You shouldn't have roleplayed, kid! Min-max all the way!"

 

 

And once again, the original game is always better;