and there wonder why they get banned

[Guest Gandalf]

On Freedom of Speech' date=' a recognized human right. You're still human, guess so.

 

Where again is Speaker's Corner located? Right, in Darkling's homeland. That means one and the same jurisdiction, UK jurisdiction, no matter where the Nexus file servers are located or where the moronic auxiliaries that apparently can talk to others only with a loaded gun may live or not. Bad News at any US tea party - that known "assuming direct control"-thingy doesn't work, not even under US jurisdiction, though the ongoing indoctrination of the Nexus members actually does, result of constant pressure. Well, it's up to the members to get remote-controlled or not, every good man is free. Our task is simply to minimize the collateral damage when the Nexus collapses like other gas giants before.

[/quote']

 

Bad News at any US tea party - that known "assuming direct control"-thingy doesn't work, not even under US jurisdiction, though the ongoing indoctrination of the Nexus members actually does, result of constant pressure.

The Boston tea party?"Assuming direct control",this isn't ME2 this is real life."ongoing indoctrination of the Nexus members actually does"

What an imagination,more than a little spooky really.

every good man is free

What about bad men are they free?

 

Our task is simply to minimize the collateral damage when the Nexus collapses like other gas giants before.

Were there other gas giants that collapsed?Who is "our" in "our task"?

 

I don't get it?...

 

From a course in effective writing.You're welcome.

Be careful not to overuse metaphors in your writing. Too many metaphors (and similes) can cause writing to become flowery and light. Metaphors without substance are empty and weak.

Pseudo-intellectualism

http://ohinternet.com/Pseudo-intellectualism

[Dee383]

Some People Deserve To Get Banned ... Personally I Dont See The Point Of Making

Horrible Comments About Somebodys Mod,s ... If I Like An Authors Mod I Will

Say That .. If I Dont I Just Move On To The Next Mod . I Dont See The Point Of

Saying Crap Like ( This Mod Suxxs Or I Dont Like Your Mod Or I Would Like Your

Mod Except For This And That ..... ..

[Narsdarknest]

Do not understand why it was defend banned by giving their "opinion" because his opinion is that they should be things like "Vikings" to hold to the lore of Skyrim, for me these comments are so out of place as if I am going to a Vikings work and say "hey! that's ugly, I want a succubus".

 

[thesapien]

Freedom of expression is a moral. Thus, it is not something we should apply in one situation and throw out in another. The reason it is legally limited in use is to limit legal powers of the state. Dictating free speech doesn't work. Using the power of laws to rule absolutely cannot guarantee freedom. There comes a point when forcing morality via laws become very immoral.

 

Some one might take this stated moral very seriously while others might view it as just a legality that has little jurisdiction. The former will see the latter as indoctrinated.

 

[thesapien]

Do not understand why it was defend banned by giving their "opinion" because his opinion is that they should be things like "Vikings" to hold to the lore of Skyrim' date=' for me these comments are so out of place as if I am going to a Vikings work and say "hey! that's ugly, I want a succubus".

 

[/quote']

 

Plus, the vanilla, unmodded Skyrim is already full of crazy oddities and random mixing with lizard people, vampires, dragons, elves, talking dogs, etc. So I have no idea what to expect "lore friendly" to mean. Skyrim has got to be seen as a nonsensical mad house of weirdness to many natives of East Asia and maybe even kind of scary like clowns.

[Guest Gandalf]

Some People Deserve To Get Banned ... Personally I Dont See The Point Of Making

Horrible Comments About Somebodys Mod' date='s ... If I Like An Authors Mod I Will

Say That .. If I Dont I Just Move On To The Next Mod . I Dont See The Point Of

Saying Crap Like ( This Mod Suxxs Or I Dont Like Your Mod Or I Would Like Your

Mod Except For This And That ..... ..

[/quote']

That's exactly how i see it.No one has the right to harass and demean someone else for something that doesn't,can't and won't effect them.

 

I believe there are deeper motives for that sort of behavior and has nothing to do with lore or anything at all to do with the mod.

 

The freedom of speech argument is a ridicules attempt to cover for emotionally disturbed behavior.

 

BTW funny avatar.

 

 

[rylasasin]

I think both sides are really missing the real point here. So I'll elaborate yet again. Though this time I think I'll keep it much shorter since apparently no one bothered to read the rather long essay I wrote last time.

 

1. Nexus and Nexus Supporters Claim that their heavy-handed "Father Knows Best" combined with "Zero Tolerance" Policy drives away trolls and keeps Nexus a friendly place

 

2. Nexus is full of trolls and flamers who may or may not get past the radar, and its users are generally unfriendly a lot of the time.

 

3. #1 and #2 are a contradiction. And since #2 is objectively true, that makes the claim #1 false. So why is this?!

 

 

4. "Father Knows Best" (centralized administrating power) May work for forum based sites like this (since it's the only way to run things in such an enviornment), but for sharing sites like Nexus it only leads to Administrators becoming overwhelmed, Corrupt and Elitist administration, and incompetence. "Father Knows best" therefore does not work very well in such an enviornment.

 

5. "Zero Tolerance", contrary to popular belief, does not actually deter flamers and/or trolls. It only gives them incentive to evade bans since they have nothing more to lose from doing so. And since doing so is ridiculously easy, it really does nothing to help the situation. In fact, it only makes it worse.

In fact, it really only winds up hurting modders who try to defend themselves rather than running to the centralized administration right away, since unlike trolls and flamers they DO have something to lose. There are countless examples of this.

 

6. Instead of a centralized structure trying to police the behavior of every single person occording to an unattainable ideal of what the community "should be", or "Father Knows Best," Why don't we take the means and responsiblity of moderation and put it into the hands of individual modders for their own individual use? (like the way youtube videos are moderated)? After all, they're the ones getting flamed and trolled, not the administration. They are the ones who should decide what "flaming" and "trolling" really means, and have the power to delete comments, close comments, ban users from posting on their mods, etc.

 

7. In the cases where a user becomes a repeated problem (not just "you flame once, you=banned"), they need to go back to the strike system and/or imply "dynamic bans" where instead of banning an account from all usages, you simply stop them from commenting. And only for a certain ammount of time. These would reduce the incentive to evade bans, and would be a lot less hurtful to modders who actually have something to lose as opposed to the normal user.

 

 

PS: The "Private website, so he can do what he wants" argument is technically true. However, it's one of the most childish excuses (and yes, that's all it really is: an excuse, and an extremely petty and pathetic one at that) that one could drum out in defense to an administration of a site clearly in the wrong. All it's designed to do is dismiss any discussion or any insightful input about the actions of said administration. It's an appeal to ignorance, and nothing more.

People who drum out this excuse also like to forget that the actions of these indivduals actually do have real effects on others. Especially when the real value of said "private website" does not come from the owner's own labor, but from the labor of those outside of the administration and decision making procress, this arguement loses it's real meaning and power.

 

In other words: It's a shitty talking point, not a real argument or justification.

[Guest Donkey]

You should make the capital letters bigger, i still can't read them very well.

 

Real problem with your major essay is one thing. Trolls hide behind a proxy nexus allows proxy so if you attack someone and get banned you can just use proxy again to bypass a previous bann. I really think there could be just a few people with lot's of times. creating many new usernames and just use those to attack, people for so called funny moments i really think when they bann proxy it will be better place. And so those that attacked cannot even return again. Because there ip is mapped. Now that would be a real funny moment.

[rylasasin]

You should make the capital letters bigger' date=' i still can't read them very well.

 

Real problem with your major essay is one thing. Trolls hide behind a proxy nexus allows proxy so if you attack someone and get banned you can just use proxy again to bypass a previous bann. I really think there could be just a few people with lot's of times. creating many new usernames and just use those to attack, people for so called funny moments i really think when they bann proxy it will be better place. And so those that attacked cannot even return again. Because there ip is mapped. Now that would be a real funny moment.

[/quote']

 

And the real problem with your response is that rather than refuting what I wrote, it actually points out exactly what I was getting at: Banning permanently (Zero Tolerance) doesn't actually deter trolls at all (proxy or not). It just creates more incentive for them to look for ways to go around it, and pisses them off in the process. And all it does is hurt modders who try to respond.

 

It also assumes that just about every single person who "trolls" (which, by the way, is a very subjective and very ill-defined term, so it really has no business being objectively defined by a centralized administration to begin with, hence my call for more individualized moderation) that gets banned is really that determined to continue trolling.

In reality very few of them are that persistent (and for those that are... well, not having a father-knows-all would free up the administration the task of having to police every single "x said y waaaah" incident in favor of more efficiently being able to deal with real problemmakers like people who in your example use tons of account,) most are just people who didn't read the terms when they registered (again, holding users to an unrealistic expectation to create an over-idealistic view of what its userbase "should be". Something that has never worked and never will.) and/or got caught up when they started becoming a lot more strict ever since their change to "nexus" from "source" and/or make one single mistake (which they may come to regret later) in the heat of the moment and "poof" they're "gone" (again, not really). In these cases "Zero Tolerance" does nothing to either deter or discipline the actions of said individuals. You don't "teach" the errant user anything. You just give them an incentive to evade the ban (since they have no other real course of action.)

[Guest Donkey]

we can argue about nexus all day in the end you are just wasting your time. They will not change because you wrote major essay what is wrong with them..

 

If they want it this way who are we to argue there policy ?? If want to be better then they are. We should create new modding site. then we can make our own rules. That way every one is happy. and nexus can keep there feeding there trolls. As long as they don't come here. Because if they destroy nexus who says they will not find there way here next. Then we can start fighting them off.

[GrimReaper]

...

 

No matter what you do, scumbags and douchebags always win in the long run. You can't force them to behave better and they won't listen to advice at all.

 

But I agree that the "We ban you for the slightest mistake"-policy is retarded. Dedicated assholes just make another account, the only people that are affected by these bans are modders and people doing a mistake without a vicious intention.

 

However, since the Nexus has such a large user base, a single user or modder is not worth much. You just can't babysit everyone and make sure everyone got it cozy and nice. It's sink or swim. Of course that is not the best course of action but it's one that is manageable. Otherwise you'd need tons and tons of good and patient moderators that try to educate the users. And even then you'd have folks that just are dickheads for the heck of it. Another point is that in our western culture you get raised with a "you are special" attitude meaning that most people are so damn self-absorbed that they think that their opinion and views are the only right ones meaning that it's very, very tiresome and damn near impossible to get someone to understand that that what he or she is doing is, in fact, wrong.

 

And people really, really hate it when they are proven wrong. That alone can transform a normally decent person into a total asshat.

[thesapien]

You should make the capital letters bigger' date=' i still can't read them very well.

 

Real problem with your major essay is one thing. Trolls hide behind a proxy nexus allows proxy so if you attack someone and get banned you can just use proxy again to bypass a previous bann. I really think there could be just a few people with lot's of times. creating many new usernames and just use those to attack, people for so called funny moments i really think when they bann proxy it will be better place. And so those that attacked cannot even return again. Because there ip is mapped. Now that would be a real funny moment.

[/quote']

 

How would that work? Nexus can't get access to the address of a device that is behind a router. So that method would get everyone banned at a public cafe, office, a home with many users, perhaps an entire campus. The collateral damage would be monstrous.

[Guest Donkey]

Your saying like that is a bad thing ?? The Engeneering Guild do not allow the use of proxies. From the look of things they do not seem to be attacked by trolls at all. And it even looks like friendly comunity.

[thesapien]

And people really' date=' really hate it when they are proven wrong. That alone can transform a normally decent person into a total asshat.

[/quote']

 

Not me. It means I learned something. I mean, yeah, it can be painful, but it sure beats being right and stuck in my ways. Change is sexy.

[thesapien]

That's exactly how i see it.No one has the right to harass and demean someone else for something that doesn't' date='can't and won't effect them.

 

I believe there are deeper motives for that sort of behavior and has nothing to do with lore or anything at all to do with the mod.

 

The freedom of speech argument is a ridicules attempt to cover for emotionally disturbed behavior.

 

[/quote']

 

Yeah, those people who talk about rights are just covering for the crazies like me.

[rylasasin]

 

No matter what you do' date=' scumbags and douchebags always win in the long run. You can't force them to behave better and they won't listen to advice at all.

[/quote']

 

Which is part of my point on why "Zero Tolerance" combined with "father knows best" (as you said: he doesn't) doesn't actually work. You cannot expect a community to conform to an "ideal" of how they "should be". Especially not from the top-down. And people who think that by implementing these policies they can "change" how the user base behaves and acts are deluding themselves. Badly.

 

It might work for forums to a certain degree (though its questionable even then, especially the Zero Tolerance), but forums and comments sections of individual mods are two different monsters.

 

You just can't babysit everyone and make sure everyone got it cozy and nice. It's sink or swim. Of course that is not the best course of action but it's one that is manageable. Otherwise you'd need tons and tons of good and patient moderators that try to educate the users. And even then you'd have folks that just are dickheads for the heck of it.

 

... Or you take the means and responsibility of small-time comment administration and give it to the individual modder so they could individually moderate their OWN comments section by giving them the power to block trolls' date=' remove comments, etc, instead of needing to be babysat by a bunch of (at the most optimistic) dedicated modders (which doesn't work too well anyway). This solves so many problems that it isn't even funny.

 

- The modders would finally have their own means to deal with trolls instead of relying on admins and moderators to constantly babysit them (which is how most modders over there get in trouble: when they try to respond to trolls instead of hammering the report button)

- The admins and moderators would be more free to deal with more serious issues (such as the formentioned hardcore trolls that make multiple accounts and whatnot)

- You would reduce the need for moderators in the first place since now the responsibility lies with the individual modders.

 

Yes, you're still going to have a troll problem to a degree. But you're going to have a troll problem anyway regardless of what you try to do, and no ammount of top-down babysitting is ever going to change that, and trying to do so only leads to more and more problems.

 

Modders are not kids that need to be babysat, if so inclined they can deal with their own troll/flamer problems if given the means to do so.

 

 

we can argue about nexus all day in the end you are just wasting your time. They will not change because you wrote major essay what is wrong with them..

 

Nor do I delude myself as such, as I clearly wrote on the last line of it. Trying to change nexus is beyond the point of this analysis...

 

We should create new modding site. then we can make our own rules. That way every one is happy. and nexus can keep there feeding there trolls. As long as they don't come here. Because if they destroy nexus who says they will not find there way here next. Then we can start fighting them off.

 

... While this is the point. Analyzing how Nexus's administration policy DOESN'T work in the hopes that we (or someone else) can create a site with one THAT DOES, and to help prevent said future site from falling into the same trap that nexus did.

[lemonbalm]

Your saying like that is a bad thing ?? The Engeneering Guild do not allow the use of proxies. From the look of things they do not seem to be attacked by trolls at all. And it even looks like friendly comunity.

Maybe that's true of the people who use the Engineering Guild site, but do a search for its founder, Giskard. (suggest keywords "giskard oblivion drama") You might not think it so friendly then.

[thesapien]

I kind of like YouTube's method. They make it quite difficult to register multiple accounts. They also are mature enough to allow individuals to mod one another and very rarely step in themselves. So I can block users from communicating with me, remove comments from my uploads, etc. if I want.

 

Since Nexus is trivial and unimportant, I don't really care if someone else is filtering posts before I get to read them.

 

However, on more important topics, I appreciate "trolls" on sites dealing with political news and such because, to me, the "trolls" are part of the news. I often get more of an insight as to what people are thinking around the world, good and bad, from the comments than I do from the video or article.

[GrimReaper]

 

 

...

 

Don't forget that many modders are quite, uhm, "sensitive" when it comes to comments, criticism and the like. If you would give modders the ability to moderate their own files how they see it fit you could remove the comment section alltogether because most modders would delete every comment that says something negative about their mod. Not only things like "your mod suxxx balls" but also comments about technical issues and the like.

 

Think about people like AlienSlof or DesuChan*. Drama queens par excellence and especially AlienSlof likes to be a douchebag herself if given the chance to spread hate about things she doesn't like. You don't want such a person to moderate anything, not even her own files.

 

*Tbh DesuChan is a bad example since she is now way more mature and cool about stuff than before. But there was a time where she would pull her mods down for the slightest provocation, intentional or not.

 

Anyway, my point is, most modders are not better than many users of the community, because they kinda share, y'know, the same roots.

[Guest Donkey]

hey don't talk bad about alienslof she is my friend.. she was part of wolfore long before you even got here.

 

I really think this is now getting out of hand. the moment we start calling eachother a douche is the end inside..

[GrimReaper]

hey don't talk bad about alienslof she is my friend.. she was part of wolfore long before you even got here.

 

I really think this is now getting out of hand. the moment we start calling eachother a douche is the end inside..

 

I don't say she is a douche, just that she sometimes obviously behaves like one, i.e. when it comes to HGEC. She has insulted the HGEC user base several times - no matter how many people called her names for making skimpy male clothing this does not give her any right whatsoever to bitch around. I am not saying she is a bad person, just that my experiences with her were not that good. At all. And I didn't do anything to upset her at all, still she insulted me indirectly, because I use this evil HGEC myself. And I don't like that. I think that's understandable, no?

 

And I don't know what wolflore has to do with this. I was there, too when Jenova initially found out and started to translate Lovers. And then the forum got a new admin that more or less banned all Lovers mods because he/she didn't like rape. Then everyone was sad, people posted over at Hongfire and Ashal made this site. Your point being?

[rylasasin]

 

 

...

 

Don't forget that many modders are quite' date=' uhm, "sensitive" when it comes to comments, criticism and the like. If you would give modders the ability to moderate their own files how they see it fit you could remove the comment section alltogether because most modders would delete every comment that says something negative about their mod. Not only things like "your mod suxxx balls" but also comments about technical issues and the like.

 

Think about people like AlienSlof or DesuChan*. Drama queens par excellence and especially AlienSlof likes to be a douchebag herself if given the chance to spread hate about things she doesn't like. You don't want such a person to moderate anything, not even her own files.

 

*Tbh DesuChan is a bad example since she is now way more mature and cool about stuff than before. But there was a time where she would pull her mods down for the slightest provocation, intentional or not.

 

Anyway, my point is, most modders are not better than many users of the community, because they kinda share, y'know, the same roots.

[/quote']

 

Perhaps you're right, perhaps you're overestimating the number of authors that would give into such pettiness.

 

Either way it matters very little: when it comes right down to it, it's still waaaaaaayy better to have a few (or even a lot of) douchebag modders that remove every single negative comment than it is a overbearing centralized system that tried (miserably) to babysit everyone and is forced to ban people for every single thing as it only winds up hurting the people that contribute or want to contribute more than they do the actual villians, whereas douchebag modders that can't take criticism are at least tolerable.

[thesapien]

I don't get why they have both a big ban hammer and have a voting system that ends up hiding comments and posts.

[thesapien]

 

 

...

 

Don't forget that many modders are quite' date=' uhm, "sensitive" when it comes to comments, criticism and the like. If you would give modders the ability to moderate their own files how they see it fit you could remove the comment section alltogether because most modders would delete every comment that says something negative about their mod. Not only things like "your mod suxxx balls" but also comments about technical issues and the like.

 

Think about people like AlienSlof or DesuChan*. Drama queens par excellence and especially AlienSlof likes to be a douchebag herself if given the chance to spread hate about things she doesn't like. You don't want such a person to moderate anything, not even her own files.

 

*Tbh DesuChan is a bad example since she is now way more mature and cool about stuff than before. But there was a time where she would pull her mods down for the slightest provocation, intentional or not.

 

Anyway, my point is, most modders are not better than many users of the community, because they kinda share, y'know, the same roots.

[/quote']

 

Perhaps you're right, perhaps you're overestimating the number of authors that would give into such pettiness.

 

Either way it matters very little: when it comes right down to it, it's still waaaaaaayy better to have a few (or even a lot of) douchebag modders that remove every single negative comment than it is a overbearing centralized system that tried (miserably) to babysit everyone and is forced to ban people for every single thing as it only winds up hurting the people that contribute or want to contribute more than they do the actual villians, whereas douchebag modders that can't take criticism are at least tolerable.

 

Nice. If only fragile egos weren't so common... If only the community didn't wish for more sheltering... If only the root of the problem weren't internal...

 

Remember when "trolling" actually meant trolling? You probably understand this better than most, but visiting a fan site and popping in to say shit was trolling. But a comments section is not a fan section. So saying bad stuff is no more trolling than saying good stuff.

 

Happy, happy, joy, joy, all is good in the disney land of Nexus, except that it's not and you make very good points as to why not.

 

Anyway, been reading and liking your posts. Don't fully always agree, but I never do, not even with myself. Maybe avoid changing text size and the like for emphasis tho because thinking ahead just imagine how competing with formatting can get out of control. Remember the reason for the all caps taboo.

 

[Guest Gandalf]

That's exactly how i see it.No one has the right to harass and demean someone else for something that doesn't' date='can't and won't effect them.

 

I believe there are deeper motives for that sort of behavior and has nothing to do with lore or anything at all to do with the mod.

 

The freedom of speech argument is a ridicules attempt to cover for emotionally disturbed behavior.

 

[/quote']

 

Yeah, those people who talk about rights are just covering for the crazies like me.

 

No i was targeting those that use free speech as an argument for why it's ok for them to act like an ass.

 

Bloody hell,lots more comments here,i don't have an opinion on much of what i've read but if i were running a site it would be one warning and a link to the rules then a ban for trouble makers.