The cannon ending of Skyrim's civil war?

[Jaravaya]

 

Well since their goal is to unmake creation, then a win for them would simply be the end of the world. It doesn't have to be them necessarily that accomplishes it - merely that it is accomplished would mean their goal is achieved.

 

Kirkbride is an abstract motherfucker so you can't really interpret things wholly as they appear at first glance. From the AMA I'm looking at to sauce this info, "Michael has a way with words that will wrap your head around a telephone pole."

 

Let me try to elaborate : if the elves have nothing to do with the end of mundus, then they basically have been crossed (by the gods themselves? the daedra? somone else?) One can easily speculate that the only reason some thalmors want to end the world is for a few of them (or even only one of them) to become a god. Remember Ankano bragging about the eye of magnus. His goal, and thus the goal of the thalmor may not be to destroy the world in a litteral sense but to destroy the human world (Lorkan). And replace it with an elven one maybe? After all, a human became a god once, a dark elf almost made it to, why not the elves? Aren't they superior to all?

Of course all of it is quit a long shot but I believe that most thalmors are just tools in the hand of their bosses, maneuvered around to unearth a sufficiant amount of power to remake the world to their liking. If so, they may fail by handeling their findings to somone else (the psijics?) Ultimatly, they may not be among those who will make the final call.

ergo: not a win.

 

Why are we bothering ?! We won't get any answers anyway!

 

Edit: I stand Corrected (sort of)

 

To the Altmer, Lorkhan (who they view as more a limit than a nature) is the most unholy of all higher powers, as they believe he forever broke their connection to the spirit plane.^{[1][6][14][2]} That their stories say Trinimac defeated Lorkhan and tore out his Heart is little consolation, and they still believe sadness is "the best response to the Sundering".^[15] Their wish is to return to the spirit realm, but Lorkhan is the demon that hinders their way; to them Nirn is a prison, an illusion to escape. Others, while accepting that Nirn is a cruel place full of mental anguish, think that Lorkhan created the world as the testing ground for transcendence; to them the spirit realm was already a prison, and true escape is now finally possible

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan

 

Nevertheless:

 

 

People around here seem to have convinced themselves that the ultimate goal of the Thalmor is to "end Creation by destroying the Towers." I can't help but feel this is being misconstrued from some weird amalgamation of people reading that little blurb you posted in-character a long time ago that everyone quotes about "unbinding the Dragon and erasing the upstart Talos from the mythic" right after reading Nu-Mantia Intercept and how the Towers are fortifications of mortal existence, a subject that never seemed like it was being written with the intention of portraying a bunch of Altmer fundies as the villains.

Would you care to offer some insight on what a more accurate aspiration for the Thalmor's realization of their goals would be, insomuch as it's even possible to write in a sufficiently concise and cryptic manner for an organization that operates on bureaucratically-saturated information overload in more or less everything they do?

-gaiden_ninja

 

The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos.

They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality.

And they're going to win in the end.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/michael-kirkbride-reddit-ama

 

That dosen't prove anything and cannot be considered a basis of judgement for the futur. All I get from it is that the Thalmor are bad guys who are to be frightening in order to be a credible source of opposition for the players. Boo, you're scared.

[itt1968]

Well... this is certainly an interesting topic to read...HAHA!!! IMO, I believe by the time it is all said and done with, the Thalmor will have made to many enemys and it will all boil down to one great big genocidal world war... and the Thalmor loose!!! If the Thalmor are truly an evil race than in the end "Evil feeds apon Itself" They become weakened from the inside due to the ever love and want of more power... strife and corruption are what set the wheels in motion for the other remaining people of Norn to band together and destroy the entire race!

 

As for part 6... I'll play it when it comes out. But, in TES5, I'm one of Ulfrics boys... Yeah, all of you get out of my Country and leave us Nords alone.... hehehe

[Ashkandii]

well my character gives no sh*ts what so ever about imperials nor stormcloaks. 

if she can make money off them, then i say let them continue. if she can't then just move out of skyrim.

but you can pay her to kill the leaders of  the Thalmor if you want

[Epic Gamer Frey]

If the Thalmor are truly an evil race

 

Thalmor aren't a race. They're a faction.

I'm one of Ulfrics boys... Yeah, all of you get out of my Country and leave us Nords alone.... hehehe

That's not a goal of the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloaks want to restore Nord rule, not kick all non-Nords out.

 

I'm one of them Die-Hard Stormcloak supporters, but not a hater of other races.... Except for Wimperials.

[Tivoko]

Except for Wimperials.

 

 

This... this makes me sad.

 

I dunno, I've always been a supporter of the Empire and typically play Imperials. The way I see it, the Empire can't stand against the Thalmor unless it gets its strength back. I always play Talos worshipping Imperials who want to empower their Empire and kick out the Thalmor, basically wanting the same goals as the Stormcloaks but working with the Empire rather than against it.

[Varithina]

Chances are we won't see a canon answer to this question till the next elder scrolls game, ignoring the mmo that is.

 

And the outright racism spat out by the nords put me off of supporting ulfirc totaly, even when I play a nord.  I have a almost overpower urge everytime some guard or merchant sprouts crap to gut them where they stand, hmm might go for that in one play thought, though its going to end up with pretty empty towns.

 

Which 3/4 of my characters are, due to the 50% ice resistance, and pretty much every mage I meet hitting me with ice attacks:(

[Epic Gamer Frey]

 

This... this makes me sad.

 

I dunno, I've always been a supporter of the Empire and typically play Imperials. The way I see it, the Empire can't stand against the Thalmor unless it gets its strength back. I always play Talos worshipping Imperials who want to empower their Empire and kick out the Thalmor, basically wanting the same goals as the Stormcloaks but working with the Empire rather than against it.

 

The empire will never get it's strength back.

 

They've lost Hammerfell.

Skyrim is the Strong arm of the empire and is needed, but half of Skyrim doesn't want to be part of the empire.

The Bretons of High Rock are staying silent. Once the civil war is over, they'll probably stick with the empire if the legion wins the civil war, or they will secede from the empire if the Stormcloaks win the civil war.

 

The empire is.... Cyrodill, half of Skyrim and possibly High Rock.

 

 

Sad thing is, if the emperor didn't sign the white gold concordat, they could have won the war. The Dominion took a huge loss at the battle of the Red Ring, then the White gold concordat was signed. More than half of the empire's forces where unfit for battle, but the Dominion had it worse. Hammerfell didn't accept the white gold concordat. The elves didn't like that, so they forced emperor Tit Milk to renounce Hammerfell. Hammerfell alone fought a war with the Dominion. That war lasted over 5 years and nobody won, but that shows that if Hammerfell alone can defend themselves against invading elves, the united empire could have won the Great War if they didn't sign the white gold concordat. But that empire is no more. The Thalmor can do whatever they want and the empire has to like it. They are free to kill any Nord.

The Dominion forced the emperor to renounce hammerfell, but won't let him do the same with Skyrim.

The empire is still strong enough to begin the 2nd war and win it, but they don't know that because the Dominion is appearing stronger than they truly are.

 

Hopefully the next emperor isn't weak. He won't be able to make the empire as strong as it once was (That'll never happen), but he might be able to unite Tamriel agains the Dominion.

[Epic Gamer Frey]

Chances are we won't see a canon answer to this question till the next elder scrolls game, ignoring the mmo that is.

 

And the outright racism spat out by the nords put me off of supporting ulfirc totaly, even when I play a nord.  I have a almost overpower urge everytime some guard or merchant sprouts crap to gut them where they stand, hmm might go for that in one play thought, though its going to end up with pretty empty towns.

 

Which 3/4 of my characters are, due to the 50% ice resistance, and pretty much every mage I meet hitting me with ice attacks:(

 

ALMOST EVERYONE is racist in TES.

 

 

Play Morrowind and Oblivion, you'll see how racist the people are in those games too.

 

 

I might be back to edit this post soon with a list of imperial racists.

 

Edit: Can't find the stuff.

[Varithina]

 

ALMOST EVERYONE is racist in TES.

 

 

Play Morrowind and Oblivion, you'll see how racist the people are in those games too.

 

 

I might be back to edit this post soon with a list of imperial racists.

 

 

True, but this is the game where they are very blatant about it in most others you get the comments now and then, in this game it seems to be everybody.

 

And I have played them both and the original arena game, but this is without doubt the most racist one of them.

 

[Epic Gamer Frey]

 

True, but this is the game where they are very blatant about it in most others you get the comments now and then, in this game it seems to be everybody.

 

And I have played them both and the original arena game, but this is without doubt the most racist one of them.

 

There's like.... 5 or 6 Nord NPCs in Windhelm that are racist.

Ulfric and Galmar aren't racist. They just don't trust non-Nords until they have proven themselves.

 

Rolff Swag-Fist, yeah, he's a racist. His buddy, sword-through-the-chest guy, he's just a drunk racist who follows Rolff.

a few other Nords in Windhelm are racist.

But the funny thing about this racist bullshit people talk about.... If the Stormcloaks are racist, why are Stormcloak holds home to the most non-Nord NPCs. The Rift and Eastmarch are full of Non-Nords.

Windhelm being the most racist city is bullshit (People aren't digging deep enough to spot other racists in other places), but tbh, it should be the most racist city. It's home to the Stormcloaks, they should be highly suspicios of Non-Nords in case of assassins trying to get Ulfric. They would be stupid to trust and respect everyone who entered Windhelm.

 

and the "weirdest" thing about the racism of Windhelm....

Niranye is an Altmer. Altmer (not all of them) are the race that is the greatest danger to all of Tamriel, but nobody is treating her like crap. She earned the trust of Nords, she earned her place. She talks to some other NPCs including some that people claim are racist.

The dark evles are lazy bastards and aren't doing anything to earn the trust and respect of the Nords. Some of them are though, like the Dunmer farm owner who has... Nords.... working for her.

 

and if you have the Dragonborn DLC, Bring Teldryn Sero to Windhelm. He doesn't like the dunmer of WIndhelm. He's Dunmer and says this about his own kind. "I lived in the Gray Quarter of Windhelm for years... it's a wretched place full of bitter Dunmer. Let's be done here quickly."

 

 

Nords are the most racist.... nah, I don't think so.

 

 

Edit: I'm typing to much. My keyboard is probably going to cry soon.

[Buddy Christ]

Assuming we accept the other guild questlines as canon, my guess is the Stormcloaks will win, but it won't amount to much.

 

It's been three goddamn years since the game came out so I'm just going to say SPOILER WARNING here but not put it all in spoilers because fuck that.

 

The Dark Brotherhood questline culminates in the major event that I think tilts everything in Ulfric's favor - Titus Mede II, Emperor and the man that led the most successful campaign against the Thalmor before the end of the Great War, is assassinated without even putting up a fight. The only figurehead the Empire could have really rallied under was just a burnt out old man, and is dead now to boot. The Empire itself may stagger on as an entity, but the internal issues caused by this assassination coupled with the already strained position of the Empire will cause morale to plummet and likely cause some increased disorganization as everyone scrambles in the aftermath.

 

My head-canon has my Dragonborn forcing Ulfric out of the throne. Being the closest thing to Talos presently on Nirn, rallying the Nords behind her banner will be a cinch. And when Ulfric inevitably asks "Why should I?" Kallista will give him three big, winged, fire-breathing reasons...

 

But since the other canonical guild questline is to destroy the Dark Brotherhood, in which case Titus Mede II will stay alive.

Therefore Bethesda can not make either outcome canonical, because it would make the one or the other group of players have a non-canonical history from Skyrim.

 

The same goes for siding with the Imperials or the Stormcloaks.

(This is the reason I believe that the next TES will only have the civil war as a small footnote, very ambiguous about who won and how)

 

My head-canon depends on the race I play:

The Redguard Dragonborn sides with the Stormcloaks first, gets rid of the Imperials in Skyrim, forces Ulfric to turn over power due to being "the Dragonborn" and crowns herself High Queen (or High King in the case of my male character). Having a grip on Skyrim she/he forges an alliance with Hammerfell and might even form a trade union with the Empire, making sure they have no political influence on the new Alliance.

In time, with proper display of power, political play and intrigue, he/she might even unite Hammerfell and Skyrim into one Kingdom.

 

I probably have not much to explain about my imperial and nord characters

 

My Bretons always stays neutral in the civil war, so this might end in an uneasy truce between Imperials and Stormcloaks.

 

The Dunmer are happy with being leader of the Thieves Guild and do not care for politics, as long as the septims keep coming in

[Epic Gamer Frey]

 

But since the other canonical guild questline is to destroy the Dark Brotherhood, in which case Titus Mede II will stay alive.

Therefore Bethesda can not make either outcome canonical, because it would make the one or the other group of players have a non-canonical history from Skyrim.

 

If you join the DB, it basically gets destroyed anyway.

 

The emperor will die and the Dark Brotherhood of Skyrim will be destroyed.

[XJ347]

 

Ulfric and Galmar aren't racist. They just don't trust non-Nords until they have proven themselves.

 

 

Yeah, the red quarter says differently. Segrigation comes from the top... Ulfric doesn't want to kick non-Nords out because he needs them to do the jobs Nords don't want to do. Sorry but everything I see screams racist about Ulfric, he just isn't not open about it. Makes sense being a politician and all.

 

The empire means well, but is slowly decaying. Part of that is because the Aldamari Dominion's manipulations on them.

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

[Epic Gamer Frey]

Yeah, the red quarter says differently. Segrigation comes from the top... Ulfric doesn't want to kick non-Nords out because he needs them to do the jobs Nords don't want to do. Sorry but everything I see screams racist about Ulfric, he just isn't not open about it. Makes sense being a politician and all.

 

Dunmer have been living in the Grey Quarter since way before Ulfric was Jarl.

Dunmer and Argonians have a bad history. Argonians where slaves to the Dunmer. Keeping them seperated is best so there's no violence between the 2 races.

[Guest Vendayn]

Well, seeing that the DB quest line pretty much kills the Emperor.

 

The empire loses

 

But seeing that Bethesda actually put in a "truce" to the civil war...

 

The empire and stormcloaks went into a truce.

 

So, actually in no particular order...empire loses...stormcloaks/empire agree to a truce and thalmor occupy large areas of Skyrim.

 

On top of that, Hammerfell probably feels abandoned. Along with any other part of Empire.

 

So empire who now has no leader, sees a huge civil break up. Like what would happen to Seleucids in Rome 2 Total War...an empire that is left with pockets of land as all their "satrapies" declaring independence.

[Guest Vendayn]

It will be either that, or Bethesda lolcons it, halfasses it and shits on it. And there was never any civil war and thalmor are defeated in Skyrim. Or at very least, empire holds on to land and its still roughly a stalemate.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they do that.

[Epic Gamer Frey]

On top of that, Hammerfell probably feels abandoned. Along with any other part of Empire.

Hammerfell isn't part of the empire.

 

 

The empire is Cyrodiil, Half of Skyrim and maybe High Rock. That is no "empire".

High Rock is staying quiet until the civil war has a winner. If the Stormcloaks win, the Bretons might secede. If the legion wins, the Bretons will stay part of the empire.

[Guest Vendayn]

 

On top of that, Hammerfell probably feels abandoned. Along with any other part of Empire.

Hammerfell isn't part of the empire.

 

 

The empire is Cyrodiil, Half of Skyrim and maybe High Rock. That is no "empire".

High Rock is staying quiet until the civil war has a winner. If the Stormcloaks win, the Bretons might secede. If the legion wins, the Bretons will stay part of the empire.

 

 

Hm, maybe I remembered what I read wrong. I thought Hammerfell beat back a Thalmor invasion by themselves and were left abandoned by the empire? Or did it mean something else?

 

 

[XJ347]

 

Hm, maybe I remembered what I read wrong. I thought Hammerfell beat back a Thalmor invasion by themselves and were left abandoned by the empire? Or did it mean something else?

 

 

Hammerfell left the Empire because they refused to follow the The White-Gold Concordat.

 

As for the invasion on Hammerfell? That is how the Redguards spin it.

 

What really happened... Redguard pirates attack the Summerset Isles. Hammerfell refuses to do anything about it, since they are getting a cut of the pirates profits, that is how privateers work... Aldamari Dominion shows up in force, takes Hammerfell's ports. Once they have the ports they utterly demolish them to send a message and promptly leave Hammerfell. The war was about stopping piracy not taking land.

 

The Redguards just want to save face, so they brag about pushing the Elves back... Which never happened.

[Epic Gamer Frey]

Hammerfell left the Empire because they refused to follow the The White-Gold Concordat.

 

As for the invasion on Hammerfell? That is how the Redguards spin it.

 

What really happened... Redguard pirates attack the Summerset Isles. Hammerfell refuses to do anything about it, since they are getting a cut of the pirates profits, that is how privateers work... Aldamari Dominion shows up in force, takes Hammerfell's ports. Once they have the ports they utterly demolish them to send a message and promptly leave Hammerfell. The war was about stopping piracy not taking land.

 

The Redguards just want to save face, so they brag about pushing the Elves back... Which never happened.

Hammerfell's Resistance

4E 175 - 4E 180[72]

Hammerfell refused to accept the terms of the White-Gold Concordat and, having been renounced as an Imperial province by Titus II, continues to fight against the Aldmeri Dominion alone. After five years, the war ends in a stalemate with the signing of the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai. The Aldmeri Dominion withdraws from Hammerfell entirely. Hammerfell remains bitter with the Empire for abandoning it.

 

Source http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Great_War#The_Great_War

[Coopervane]

There is no such thing as a Stormcloak victory.

 

 

Two new wars will start the moment Ulfric takes the throne, the first will be the fight to bring order to Skyrim, the lands are crawling with Bandits and Forsworn who exploited the breakdown of lawenforcement durring the civil war, and then of course there are the Dragons, who still attack their towns and cities even after the defeat of Alduin. The second will be the invasion of Skyrim by the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

 

Skyrim is in shambles, the great war took a terrible toll on the Nords, and the civil war has left them even worse off, their infrastructure and fortifications in decay, their population decimated and in turmoil, and their fight to bring order will further weaken them still.

 

Meanwhile the Dominion has been gathering streangth and preparing for war, and with Ulfric taking the throne, they will have no choice but to invade Skyrim since he will reinstate Talos worship. The only reason they haven't already is that the civil war benifits them, hell, the Thalmor helped set it in motion for that very reason. As long as the Nords and the Empire are killing eachother, they both grow weaker whilst the Dominion grows stronger. The Thalmor would prefer that the civil war goes on for even longer, but they already have the advantage.

 

 

The great war ended in a draw, the combined might of Skyrim and the rest of the Empire was not enough to defeat the Dominion. Skyrim has only grown weaker since the end of the great war, and significantly so, meanwhile the Dominion has grown stronger. And who will aid Skyrim against the combined forces of the Dominion? I don't see that anyone would, and the Dominion would make very sure to invade before Ulfric could form any solid alliances.

 

 

So there's your proud Stormcloak "victory", a short interlude of more bloodshed and strife, culminating in the almost certain annexation of Skyrim into the Aldmeri Dominion. Grats there Ulfric, you most likely just handed Skyrim back to the Elves on a silver platter.

 

[TheDriedFinger]

Since BethSoft spent a whole game having the player learn to hate the Thalmor (regardless of their choice to back the Stormcloaks or the Imperials), I would imagine that, if the next game features them as a fairly major plot point, then they would have to give the player some avenue to fight against the Thalmor again. I can only see this happening outside of Skyrim if the Empire hasn't taken a major loss (i.e. if they didn't lose the Civil War). Since BethSoft gave the player so many options in Skyrim, they would have to be a little vague about the events. Maybe something like: Despite major victories for <the losing side>, <the winning side> was able to maintain its footing and retake Skyrim. So that they can engineer their canon ending without minimizing the actions of players in the previous game.

 

I'd like to point out that the Stormcloaks' attitude towards non-Nords really is apparent in the dialogue lines "How is it here now that the Stormcloaks have taken over?" (something like that). For example, Adrianne Avenicci points out that, without her Nord husband, she'd be out of business because they won't buy from non-Nords. And Hulda complains that they break stuff every night at the Bannered Mare. No wonder Elda is always so anal about telling the player not to "break nothin'" at the Candlehearth Hall.

[bradleyh]

In a Stormcloak Victory, Snow Throat is no longer Sundered, Kingless, and Bleeding. Nords have a Unified Nordic Army for the first time since the Merithic, back when Altmer still lived on Altmora.

Altmora is Atmora. Nords when Unified are the greatest Military Force on Nirn. The Dwemer needed a Dragon Break and an Alliance with the Dunmer while Nords were not Unified to just push the Nords out of Vvardenfell.

Friends and Relatives cease to be labled as Talos Worshippers, and no longer vanish in the night. The Mercenaries employed by the Empire either revert to common criminals to be slaughtered, or join the Stormcloaks.

Bruma, Skingraad, Kvatch, and Chorrol can see what Men free from the Imperial Yoke can achieve. Colovians can now look to the North to Skyrim and East to Hammerfell, and see what a Free Man can do when unburdened by Elven Merrymandering like the Elder Council that claims to rule from the Imperial City. 

[Uncle_Sheo]

End of the war? There is no end to war. 

 

If Ulfric wins, the Empire will invade again, this time with Thalmor reinforcements. Why? Because:

1. If Skyrim falls, it will be the last of its strongholds outside Cyrrodiil, and they will commit every resource available to maintain a foothold

2. The Thalmor interest will align with continued civil unrest, and that is why they chose no sides in the ongoing war. A clear victory by the party not leashed by any treaty, and not likely to, will be a direct threat to elven supremacy. Their troops will join the fray in the subsequent war.

 

If the Empire wins, there will be no peace. Why? Because:

1. You can kill a man, you can curb a rebellion, but you cannot kill an idea. Once the seeds of insurrection are sown, it is impossible to stomp them out. It will rear its ugly head over and over again. Pockets of dissension will forever persist. Much like modern day terrorism, you cannot just bomb it into non-existence.

2. The Thalmor will themselves will sow seeds of discord to continue weakening the Empire.

 

The decision in Skyrim does not come down to freeing a land of foreign yoke, or reviving the glory of an Empire. It does not come down to Tullius' racism, or Ulfric's. It does not come down to romanticized ideals, of freedom, or of unity. It does not come down to any of the fucking short term goals the fucking short-sighted love to see and celebrate. It is all meaningless before the intrigue the Aldmeri Dominion is weaving around everyone. In the end, whichever side you choose, you weaken opposition to the Thalmor, and you pry your own buttcheeks just a little wider for the obviously underestimated elven cock to do its thing.

 

No one wins. Everyone loses, except for the one sitting in the shadow ready to strike. The canon ending for the civil war? Rise of the elves.

[ratrace]

Hard to pick a side without a headache. Ulfric is a blunt racist, so is his politics and many of the "true Nords", the Thalmor are a dangerous tyrannical organisation. My guts tell me to fight them, and in order to do so, I have to side with the stormcloaks.

 

"Skyrim belongs to the Nords" is like "Deutschland den Deutschen" ("Germany for the germans" - a propaganda statement uttered mostly by Neonazis). The similarity is very obvious. Of course this is only a slogan, but it makes the way of thinking very obvious.

 

But this is just my opinion. However, I can't help having tons of fun killing Thalmor on sight or playing a foul game on them. And I stress "Thalmor" - not Altmer.