Petition to Stop Using Uniboob

[Karna5]

Hello. Over the last year or two I've periodically made posts suggesting people stop using uniboob because it's inadequate for OCBPC which is what modern bodies use for breast physics. But I've made those posts inside long threads where I doubt mod authors who are the intended audience can see it.

 

Uniboob is used on outfit tops where there are vertices over the sternum. It's used to (attempt to) cancel various sliders like cleavage and breasts curves between the breasts. However, with OCBPC in which breasts move independently, there is always deformity. And when breasts move in opposite directions, there is often tearing of the mesh.

 

A handful of Fallout 4 mod authors like HumanNature66 have been making outfits which do not need Uniboob because they don't have vertices over the sternum. These outfits are 100% compatible with OCBPC and work perfectly.

 

Here is a short film I made showing an HN66 top from his TRS mod, though his EasyGirl is also OCBPC compatible. It's a mashup in which I put the TRS mod over a Vtaw dress, and I put a Maibatsu stocking texture on the top so it would be transparent enough and have lines to  show the movement of the top.

 

 

For reference, here is the technique HN66 uses in the EasyGirl and TRS tops, and you can see looking at it why this method does not need uniboob and why it's completely compatible with OCBPC.

 

 

 

[KoolHndLuke]

I'm always editing HN66's outfits, lol. I've used his EasyGirl mod(s) for reference when conforming other mod outfits for years now. But since I've yet to install or try OCBPC in my game, I wouldn't know about the clipping/tearing on meshes around the boobs since I made my custom CBBE body a long time ago and really don't want to take the time to do all those edits again.

 

One thing I will say is that you can maybe edit the bone weights on a body mesh instead and use that as a reference for outfits? Just a suggestion since I don't really know.

Edited August 19, 2023 by KoolHndLuke

[Karna5]

17 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

One thing I will say is that you can maybe edit the bone weights on a body mesh instead and use that as a reference for outfits?

Hello my friend Yeah, editing bone weights is extremely important when porting vanilla skeleton (basic CBBE) to a modern body such as ZEX skeleton with Fusion Girl (or the TWS equivalent, whatever that uses as skeleton). And it's got to be done carefully so as not to mess up skirts, high heels, wrists, long necks, attachments, etc.

 

This said, bone weight painting is simply not enough to deal with vertices over the sternum and independently moving breasts. In addition, Uniboob not only can't cope with the movement but also can't cope with very curvy breasts.

 

When one uses the HN66 method, not only do breasts move correctly without requiring Uniboob, but no matter how extreme your breast and nipple curves are the outfit will automatically fit snugly and correctly so long as there are enough vertices over the nipples and sides of the breasts. It just works out of the box so long as there are no vertices over the sternum.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Karna5

[KoolHndLuke]

39 minutes ago, Karna5 said:

It just works out of the box so long as there are no vertices over the sternum.

Mmm.... I have noticed this in the past when working with his meshes and always wondered. Thanks for explaining that Karna. I have this one blouse I use quite a bit with Cherry Hotalings old physics and it works wonderfully. Looks so natural. But alas it's not collision physics since I kind of like the natural sway they already have. But since it's only one bone, the breast move more or less in unison already. Forgive me if my understanding of these things is not right. Still kind of a mystery to me how physics work in these games. 

 

Anyway... if you are suggesting conformity in the community around what HN66 does in his mods (even if it's a better way to do things) you'll find that MA's mostly won't do it. I tried to get Lazman to conform his very good clothing/heels to HN66's way of doing things years ago and he just ignored me. 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by KoolHndLuke

[Karna5]

4 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

But since it's only one bone, the breast move more or less in unison already.

*Nods* Traditional CBBE and old cloth physics work fine with Uniboob because, as you say, the breasts keep their position with relation to each other.

 

What I'm suggesting (begging, kind of) is that mod authors who currently put vertices over the breast bone (which currently is nearly all of them) consider, if they can, no longer doing that.

 

If they don't put vertices over the breast bone, their outfits will work with any modern skeletons, body types and body shapes. Conversions to modern bodies like Fusion Girl and TWB will be perfect once the bones and sliders are converted.

 

With vertices over the breast bone, there will never be a good conversion to Fusion Girl or TWB.

[drp23]

If you dont put vertices over the breast bone, how are you supposed to have any detail or shape to the mesh at all?  

The problem isn't that there are vertices there - it's that people rarely weight them as accurately as they could.  For all the outfits/clothes I really like, I usually totally redo the weights and sliders to make them work better, not clip, and not deform.  But this is a manual process, you can't automate it if you want the best results.  99% of people won't do that when posting conversions etc., because for most people it's not necessary and not worth the work.

Also, fusion girl's uniboob reference doesn't have vertices in the middle, which is sort of what causes that distortion.  Because there are not vertices in the middle to transfer data from, it doesn't transfer cleanly or smoothly unless there are vertices there to gradually transition the weight and morphs when conforming, which is likely what leads to the issues you're facing.  I made a "fixed" uniboob ref for fusiongirl a while back, but I started using a custom body I put together, but if I can find it I'll share it.

[Karna5]

7 hours ago, sullysam said:

If you dont put vertices over the breast bone, how are you supposed to have any detail or shape to the mesh at all? 

I showed pictures of how HN66 does it, and with his normal maps they look nuanced and textured beautifully in game.

 

 

7 hours ago, sullysam said:

I made a "fixed" uniboob ref for fusiongirl a while back, but I started using a custom body I put together, but if I can find it I'll share it.

I certainly understand your words and intent, but I would be curious to see a video of the independent movement of the breasts, especially fairly large breasts capable of more movement, like what I showed in the demonstration using the HN66 method.

 

I'll be skeptical until I actually see it in action and impressed if I do see it in action

 

p.s. I imagine that for your proposal manual weight painting would not be needed. You would simply:

 

1. set reference to FG nude

 

2. copy bone weights (preserving wrists, neck, skirt, etc. as applicable and deleting thighs from micro bikinis and underwear, etc.)

 

3. conform the whole outfit (although obviously not the vagina penetrate if you're using static phobia, and not the areola if you're using a string top or microbikini)

 

4. set reference FG uniboob

 

5. conform "selected" to the outfit top only (not the whole outfit). Selected would preserve nipple length and other relevant shapes which uniboob lacks

 

6. set reference back to FG nude (or static phobia as applicable, of course)

 

That's still inferior on tops such as Vtaw's Apron. There's just no way to make Vtaw's apron look good with uniboob and OCBPC, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Karna5