CTD gods strike again

[Jotasran]

It's like they lay in wait for me to resolve one issue before another starts. 

 

This one is 3 successive CTDS when trying to take a carriage ride from Riften to Whiterun.

 

 

crash-2023-02-22-05-26-15.log crash-2023-02-22-05-29-56.log crash-2023-02-22-05-32-34.log

[traison]

Isn't this the same thing you posted about on February 4th?

[Jotasran]

In that it's triggered by the carriage, yes.  I figured it was better third person and that mod is no longer in my LO.  That seemed to fix it.  It hasn't been a problem until now and then 4 CTDs in a row.

 

I deleted a number of other mods in a shotgun attempt to reduce conflicts.  Mu Joint fix was supposedly fixed in last release and it doesn't look at all like that crash when it happened.  I went into xEdit and looked at the cell (like you said last time).  There are no esps overwriting any nav-meshes in that cell.

 

 

 

 

[DeathApproaches]

Dude. They DO lie in wait! They can't be exposed as the bad guy if someone in front of them is also a bad guy and crashes you first. That's just computer code in general. :-)

 

Hmm noops are fun, so what is Modpocalypse NPCs (v3) SSE.esp and does it overwrite named vanilla NPCs like the cart drivers? Is it just texture stuff? .dds and .nifs and autogenerated tris, right? You ran BodySlide at least once to batch morph outfits for them after installing this, right? Everything was working? Does that joint fix thing actually edit the skeletons, change any vertices or just moves them around slightly to help hide the seaming when you squat/bend in certain ways?

 

Did you recently disable one of it's dependencies? You have so many replacers in that list, replace textures sounds pathing and idles; this is a complex relationship, when it works you take it for granted like Todd, it just works. When it doesn't you post on every forum you know of.

 

Do you get to the dialogue part of "where to you want to go?" (list pops up, you pick from list), "hop in back", etc... or is it just when walking up and getting inside the LOD cutoff range? When dialogue is initiated? Does it happen to only ONE specific cart driver or if you 'coc <outside-another-hold>' and initiate convo with a different driver - get repeatable result?

 

Also Devil's Advocate - are you trying an existing save? Does starting a new game function as expected? You are a mod user. Save games are disposable. Game progress is disposable. Always try a new start after changing active mods, load order, or sneezing too hard while Vortex/MO2 is running...

 

[Jotasran]

2 hours ago, DeathApproaches said:

Modpocalypse NPCs (v3) SSE.esp and does it overwrite named vanilla NPCs like the cart drivers? Is it just texture stuff? .dds and .nifs and autogenerated tris, right?

Yes, it overwrites every vanilla NPC... I'm not sure of the technical aspects of that though.  Textures and hairs for sure.

 

2 hours ago, DeathApproaches said:

You ran BodySlide at least once to batch morph outfits for them after installing this, right?

Yes.  Anytime I add any outfits I do that.

 

2 hours ago, DeathApproaches said:

Does that joint fix thing actually edit the skeletons, change any vertices or just moves them around slightly to help hide the seaming when you squat/bend in certain ways?

I don't know the answer to this at all.  I'm nowhere close to smart enough to understand that.  Its just that the OStim NG team recommended it, so I did it. 

 

2 hours ago, DeathApproaches said:

Did you recently disable one of it's dependencies?

No.  I check LOOT rules in Vortex then use the plugin checker in Wryebash.  No new mods were added or deleted on this playthrough. 

 

2 hours ago, DeathApproaches said:

Do you get to the dialogue part of "where to you want to go?" (list pops up, you pick from list), "hop in back", etc... or is it just when walking up and getting inside the LOD cutoff range? When dialogue is initiated? Does it happen to only ONE specific cart driver or if you 'coc <outside-another-hold>' and initiate convo with a different driver - get repeatable result?

All dialogue works as expected.  It goes to the loading screen and then seems to crash when loading the new location.  This playthrough, I've only noticed it going to Whiterun from Riften...  after 4 CTDs it finally worked.

 

2 hours ago, DeathApproaches said:

Also Devil's Advocate - are you trying an existing save? Does starting a new game function as expected? You are a mod user. Save games are disposable. Game progress is disposable. Always try a new start after changing active mods, load order, or sneezing too hard while Vortex/MO2 is running...

This wasn't a problem the whole game until after I got Esbern out of the Ratway in Riften.  If I keep trying it seems to go through... but I'd like to solve the problem and don't see the crash log pointing to anything in particular.

 

I'm considering disabling Mu Knee Fix and seeing if I can still crash it from that save point. 

[Grey Cloud]

6 minutes ago, Jotasran said:

It goes to the loading screen and then seems to crash when loading the new location.

Have you tried fast travelling to see if that crashes your game?

[Jotasran]

I did.  From the same point that crashed it on carriage.  It worked fine with no crashes.

 

Edit:  With Mu KF-  5/6 CTDs

         W/O Mu KF- 0/10 CTDS.

 

So I guess that's my answer.... but I though Better Third Person was my answer before.  I'll remove the mod from LO and try to clean the save with Fallrim.

 

Thanks to everyone for help on this.  I"ll update in a few days to verify if its fixed or not.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Jotasran

[Jotasran]

Apparently not the Mu Joint Fix. This CTD was using carriage from Solitude to Windhelm.

crash-2023-02-23-04-07-51.log

Edited February 23, 2023 by Jotasran

[traison]

Is "mu knee fix" different from "mu joint fix"? MuJointFix was supposed to have been fixed in some of the recent patches (<2 months).

 

Edit: Didn't see latest post for whatever reason. Anyhow, I still think this is a pathing issue, so, do you have any followers, teammates, pets, horses or adoring fans following you when you travel? Try getting rid of them all. Same goes for waiting followers you may have left at your house or some random damp dungeon.

Edited February 23, 2023 by traison

[Jotasran]

This character has no followers.  I do have a horse and it may very well be set to follow.  I'll try having horse follow me on carriage vs. not following. 

[Fotogen]

Log says something about "movement", "path manager" and "horse"(Palomino Horse from SimplestHorses.esp).

 

For test, remove mods that do something with horses.

[Jotasran]

1 hour ago, Fotogen said:

For test, remove mods that do something with horses.

Makes sense and I'll do that as well.  The problem here is that this damn CTD will literally vanish for 20 attempts making me think its been solved... only resurface for maximum psychological damage later on.

[DeathApproaches]

Let's back up a second... it isn't that repeatable, it seems kind of random but maybe about a horse mod. 20 fine loads, then a CTD... What about... hmm..

 

Could you be running out of something? Resource starvation? Could you be doing stuff in the background that chews up too much VRAM or RAM, playing music or videos in a browser that has hw acceleration enabled chewing up more VRAM than you're aware of... the game goes to allocate it as it's spawning you into that cell, it's got nothing left in the pool, and crashes? That could explain why it does it sometimes and not others... if you're near capacity, just the current weather might be the difference between getting to play and finding yourself on the desktop.

 

I frequently hit 20.6G RAM and 7.8G VRAM utilized for SkyrimSE at 1920x1080 with my mod set. Lots of Skyrim people don't have 8G cards, some don't even have 16G RAM systems. Hell I bet some are still trying to use mods on 2012 PCs they bought when it came out, 4G RAM 2G VRAM museum pieces... Great Lucifer bless their passage through Hell.

 

You speak like a technically capable person so I'm assuming you have a modern system that can happily accommodate SSE/SAE and a few hundred mods, but we don't know until we know, ya know? Just being thoroug: So what do you think? Did you ever state your specs, how many other apps are running while you're testing this? Etc.

 

Probably isn't it, but let's check.

 

 

[Jotasran]

Sure.  I am somewhat technical.  I used to be an IT administrator 15 years back, but haven't coded since Atari Basic (ouch... hurts to type that),   Maybe a little SQL in access, excel, etc.  Much of this stuff regarding Skyrim is above me and I really don't have a passion for the tech stuff (hence me leaving the field).  I can work in xEdit with some success but struggle with the interior file structures of Skyrim.  I can do basic patches and have altered leveled lists with my own mod (more of a patch, really).

 

Regarding my rig....   Intel Core i7 12700K, GPU- Intel UHD Graphics 770 - NVIDIA GeForce 3080 Ti (12GB vram I believe), 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD, Realteck Audio, NVIDIA High Def Audio.  I run NZXTcam on my 2nd monitor when playing and my GPU gets up to 60-70% usage at its peak.   RAM usage is never past 60%.  I generally use 1k textures where possible, just in case.  I've never really been so stable w Skyrim that I though "Hey... let's push my system because crashes are so fun". 

[Jotasran]

16 hours ago, traison said:

Anyhow, I still think this is a pathing issue, so, do you have any followers, teammates, pets, horses or adoring fans following you when you travel? Try getting rid of them all. Same goes for waiting followers you may have left at your house or some random damp dungeon.

Tried carriage travel from Windhelm to Whiterun.  5x with horse following and 5x with horse waiting.  No CTDs either way.  I'll play for a bit and try to get a crash.  If I get one, I'll try the test again.  After that, I'll try Fotogen's suggestion of trying without horse mods at all.

[Jotasran]

13 hours ago, Jotasran said:

For test, remove mods that do something with horses.

Apparently nothing to to with removing horses.  This repeated crash w/o any horse mods occurred on carriage from Riften to Solitude.  First crash was with horse mods.  Second was after disabling SC horses.  Third was after disabling Simplest Horses as well.

 

Edit:  Did a search on that MovementAgent etc in the callstack and found this reddit: 

 

I'm done for the night but will follow up on this tomorrow and report back.  Thing is this character never had a follower.

 

crash-2023-02-24-04-35-33.log crash-2023-02-24-04-34-02.log crash-2023-02-24-04-31-45.log

Edited February 24, 2023 by Jotasran

[traison]

This doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so here's a "sledgehammer idea": Go through all mods that contain navmeshes and either determine their likelihood of being the culprit, or outright disable them.

 

A script to help locate mods with navmeshes:

Spoiler

{
  Find mods with navmeshes
}
unit UserScript;

function Initialize: integer;
var
  i: integer;
  f: IInterface;
  e: IInterface;
  sig: string;
begin
  // iterate over loaded plugins
  // TODO: Skip official dlc and Skyrim.esm
  for i := 0 to Pred(FileCount) do begin
    f := FileByIndex(i);
    
    //AddMessage('Searching ' + GetFileName(f));
    Search(f);
    
  end;
end;

procedure Search(f: IInterface);
var
    m: string;
    j: integer;
    e: IInterface;
    sig: string;
begin
    for j := 0 to Pred(RecordCount(f)) do begin
        e := RecordByIndex(f, j);
        sig := Signature(e);
        
        if sig = 'NAVM' then
        begin
            AddMessage(GetFileName(f) + ' contains navmeshes.');
            Exit()
        end;
    end;
    
    //AddMessage(GetFileName(f) + ' does NOT contain navmeshes.');
end;

end.

 

Load your loadorder as-is in xEdit. Right click any mod and select Apply script. Copy paste the thing above and check the messages tab in a few seconds. The Cell and Worldspace branches can contain navmeshes. After that it's manual work. Right now I'd go by the assumption that any change to a navmesh can be the problem (not just overwrites or other conflcits). Mainly because I do not know what a broken navmesh looks like. I just know navmeshes can very easily cause a CTD, and that it is usually difficult to find where and why. Also consider deleted records. These should show up as regular records, but probably contain a flag saying they're deleted. xEdit may have an "undelete" as well, but may want to be careful with that - some things probably should be deleted.

[Jotasran]

That's awesome, Traison.  Thanks.  I'll update you probably later tonight.

 

Edit:  I have a lot of freaking navmesh altering mods.  Not counting creation club and vanilla/dlc... I have about 70 mods that came up with your script.  Ugh.  When I find this corrupt navmesh mod, I'm leaving some words for them.

 

Edit:  I appreciate your help here and don't want to seem ungrateful.  I just don't see myself doing this one record at a time for 70 mods to maybe find a conflict which might actually be a mod created navmesh or one I can't spot anyway.  Maybe I'll see it from a different perspective later, but right now I rather take a baseball bat to my computer.  My guess is that you are correct.  I turned off Nether's FF and got the same damn ctd.  I'm no programmer, but the arcane nature of this whole process makes me wonder why I don't just go read a book or something.  Jesus.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Jotasran

[traison]

I had maybe 10 pop up on my setup of 174 active plugins. I guess I've been more careful than you in this regard.

 

You could consider zipping up all plugins (esl, esp and esm) files involved in this 70-plugin pack and uploading it here. I'll take a look at the bunch. I am unforunately not going to go hunting for the dependencies for 70 mods so you'll have to sort that our first. Easiest way to do this is to select all 70 mods (and nothing else) in xEdit, it will automatically select dependencies. Then simply note them down and compile them in a directory for zipping.

[Jotasran]

You're either insane or one of the kindest persons I've met

3 hours ago, traison said:

You could consider zipping up all plugins (esl, esp and esm) files involved in this 70-plugin pack and uploading it here

.  I really hope this is an automated process I don't know about and not you just going though records one-by-one. 

 

I'm uploading everything except the main files like Skyrim.esm, Dragonborn, Dawnguard, etc.

 

 

NavMeshSearch.7z

[traison]

Delete that file, it contains CC content. I got it anyways, doubt anyone else would download.

 

Edit: Missing Relationship Dialogue Overhaul.esp. Proceeding without USMP - RDO Patch.esp for now.

 

Edit again: Preliminary checking suggests cckrtsse001_altar.esl is the only one with deleted navmeshes and it seems to be sticking to interior cells so I'm ignoring that for now. This is much less/better than I expected. Guess I'll go through the navmeshes manually to see if I can see something.

Edited February 25, 2023 by traison

[traison]

Right, so you got a few "noisy" mods here and they do not like eachother - seen from a navmesh perspective. Like I probably mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't know what a broken navmesh looks like, so for now I'd go by gut feeling. In this case it's telling me 3DNPC and SkyrimSewers need to go. They got their tendrils everywhere, in nearly every city - and every city has a cart driver.

 

If I'm not mistaken SkyrimSewers has had broken navmeshes in the past (~5 years) as well.

 

2nd place goes to the following: Dwarfsphere, Clockwork and LegacyoftheDragonborn.

[Jotasran]

Ok, thank you.  Next playthrough I'll delete 3dnpc and sewers. I don't seem to have great result from fallrim resaver when I use it.

 

Edit:  I decided I can take these ctds...  I deleted sewers, but still getting ctds.  So... I deleted all the others you mentioned.  I'll start an new play-through and see what happens.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Jotasran