Interest of SSE compared to LE, in terms of mods development

[Delzaron]

Hi

 

By the way, I'm thinking to migrate on SSE... but I don't still make the point.

 

What are the advantages of SSE ? how developing works ? the creationkit seems also not available easely.

I also heard it's more easy to convert a mod from LE to SSE than the opposite.... but what I readed just make me confused...

the conversion process from LE to SE seems very complex...

 

My idea is to keep LE as the developer tool, and to use SE to convert and upload the mod.

 

I wish to test that strategy with Ravenous rework.

 

So, I ask the question : what I need to know ?

 

[Silvain]

2 hours ago, Delzaron said:

What are the advantages of SSE ?

 

So I'm comming from a user perspective, not a modder perspective. I don't develop my own mods but do conversions quite regularly.

 

SE is more stable. Or at least it is way easier to get it very stable compared to LE. I have spent a lot less time with SE tinkering with settings, stability mods and memory manager. It feels a lot more robust.

 

And freaking .esl flagged .esps are a freaking blessing. I currently have around 600 active plugins. 400 are .esl flagged which means that they are ignored for the 255 esp limit. I couldn't mod without this anymore.

 

2 hours ago, Delzaron said:

I also heard it's more easy to convert a mod from LE to SSE than the opposite....

 

LE to SE is very "easy". There are pitfalls that can completely ruin your mod though.

 

1) .bsa's need to be repackaged. bsa packaged with the LE CK are not compatible with the new SE CK.

2) animations need to be converted. LE animations won't work for SE.

3) textures need to be converted. Some LE textures won't work for SE.

4) meshes need to be converted. Most meshes for LE will crash SE.

 

This seems like a lot but most is done by Cathedral Optimizer with a single click. https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/23316?tab=files

 

It's a nifty all in one tool. The BETA is also able to convert animations and behaviour files so no need to fiddle with other converters. Though the beta version I use has some problems with bsa files so I use the stable release for anything related to bsa when converting.

 

Now something that is up to more discussion. The form 44 thing. There are people that wrote a lot about it and know a whole lot more about it than I do. But the gist that also fits my own experiences is that form 43 mods are harmless most of the time. Form 44 is for new data introduced by the SE version. But the old data still works fine. Only mods that use this new data type need to be form 44. So no need to convert.

 

Buuut there a few engine bugs. For example loading the LE version of sexlab survival into xEdit shows that the weapons have an error. That is caused by some kind of engine bug that makes the crit data of the weapons error out. This is fixed easily by opening the old mod in the SE CK and then just saving it (with CK Fixes installed).

This also automatically updates the plugin to form 44.

 

This is also one of the reasons why SE mods are difficult to port back. The new data types can't be loaded into the LE CK. It won't know what to do with it causing all kind of strangeness. Or that is what I read. No idea if that is really the case - never tried to backport since I'm on SE (and more recently the AE upgrade).

 

Now to the really annoying stuff. Using .json files for an example with PapUtil is a bit of a problem. The SE version of PapUtil needs the hexadecimal value for formlists for some functions. The LE version needs the regular value to find the formlist. So you also need to convert any formlist values in your .json files to hexdecimal or they simply won't work in some function for PapUtil in SE.

 

There may be some more niche cases I don't know about. But knowing this pretty much sums up the conversion progress. For a new version of SLS I need maybe 10 minutes to convert, check for errors and upload. So in my eyes it isn't "a lot of work".

 

 

 

From a developer point of view I would recommend asking Monoman1 for advice. He also develops on LE, only has LE, but has a history with SE specific problems he again and again manages to solve.

[t.ara]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, Delzaron said:

Hi

 

By the way, I'm thinking to migrate on SSE... but I don't still make the point.

Hello Delzi:-)

I also have some problems with SE as a creator, specially when it comes to clothing-design/and or new mesh design/art:

As 3dsmax is not offering a direct im- and export, you only have to go the way of a conversion. At least do you have a total different body-shape, which is more complex and which are offered in for minimum three versions-it ´s hard to create of a mod always three or more different body-versions, specially in that case, if you always have to convert assets to become available inside of  3dsmax other another 3d-art-software.

A next big problem is the missing HDT-PE physics, which drastically reduce older assets which have been built on this. For clothing, this can be remade to work mostly also with SMP but for assets which connect ends of bones of a skeleton with each other is SMP not possible to use. My personal impression is, that HDT-PE is far more complex and it can handle much more different behavior for a gravitation-simulation, btw.

This points are the absolute stoppers for modding into SE (for scripters, this all doesn ´t matter).

 

 

On 8/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, Delzaron said:

 

What are the advantages of SSE ? how developing works ? the creationkit seems also not available easely.

 

The advantage of SE is basically the speed with which you can start skyrim and the creation-engine: SKYRIM.esm + ZAP9 (which is huge) is loading with less then 14 seconds. Skyrim SE itself got a change in it ´s menu and so you have to switch and click little more to reach your last safe-bethesda could not let hands off that how it has been handy before in LE.

Both games can be used perfectly side by side: Both can use THE COMPLETE WIDESCREEN-FIX (NEXUS) and the suiting RACE MENU-fix (SAME PLACE ON NEXUS, TOO) so that you have a readable format for widescreen-displays, which is mostly common for a serious workplace.

For the Creation-Kit you please use the CK64Fixes Release 3.2-20061-3-2-1616560054 - mod, which is the safer for CK-SE (without that helper, I would say CK-SE is a crap and unusable in it ´s settings of the release.

If you want a special trimmed TESV.exe for skyrim se and CK, let me know, this will also spare lot of time to be again more faster.

 

 

On 8/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, Delzaron said:

I also heard it's more easy to convert a mod from LE to SSE than the opposite.... but what I readed just make me confused...

the conversion process from LE to SE seems very complex...

 

Most people use the converters (Cathedral asset optimizer, SSE-Nif-Optimizer (by Caliente, bi-directional)) which change some details inside of the different gamebryo-versions between SE and LE. This depends on the content of the files. Clothing assets from LE can at once being pulled into outfit-studio (bodyslide is auto-converting the meshes) and you need not to care.

 

 

On 8/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, Delzaron said:

My idea is to keep LE as the developer tool, and to use SE to convert and upload the mod.

 

LE is no tool, it ´s simply a game. It ´s that game, which has the most flexiable modding support ever. There are the tools and the access for all different software available to create new content. For mesh-creation, you can not use SKYRIM SE all alone, if you add new quests and some new locations to the game by only using CK, you can stay with SE all alone-no problem. It also is very unhandy to always have to convert during a process of developing a new clothing asset, specially in that case if you use 3dsmax (I´m sure same is also for other 3dsoftware).

If your new mod is ready inside of SKYRIM LE, you can convert it for SE...script folders of se are different and you also have to fiddle around with different versions and SKSE and some dll. -stuff.

Animations I create, are in both games compatible, they don ´t need any conversion but other mods need also to convert it ´s animations for a use in SE.

 

 

On 8/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, Delzaron said:

 

I wish to test that strategy with Ravenous rework.

 

So, I ask the question : what I need to know ?

 

 

About quest-mods, you indeed have to give it a try...if there´s also an incompatibility between skyrim LE and SE (script-folders) and other differences maybe you will find that out. I think of MUSJE/ZAIRA and some others, which have also their massive interest with SKYRIM SE.

 

To me is SE sadly no suiting software to mod exactly into (once I said: "SE can not being modded seriously"-and with that opinion I am not alone ), as it is very UNHANDY to go always the way by using the awfull converting, specially in that case if you want to create complex assets, at a point, when Outfit-studio is technically at it ´s end. And that ´s enough reason, to stay with a working system and not deal with a ONE-WAY-TICKET-specially if it ´s a hobby of yours.

Beside all that you have some stuff onto your desktop and suddenly your files are mixing: this is an SE-file, that is an LE-file....things begin to become crazy. This is truely nonsence, which you never have to deal with if you only concentrate on one system. Yes-of course can you organize your folders, both games also work inside different folders, side by side...but the chance to get confused is drastically raising. Here a conversion-folder, there a texture folder of SE, there is a LE-mesh-folder.....oh...pity-I´m just inside a wrong folder suddenly...I changed data of LE-LOL !!!!-This CAN happen...and this is never happening WITHOUT a SE SKYRIM-installation. ...This mod is for (...)...that mod was (...) for...(??...) one mod-organizer for both games-okay-if you want?!!:-))...So, stay COOL if modding into BOTH. ?

 

 

After an final update of SKYRIM SE to the latest working version I also got the FAST-SMP-physics at least working smoothly and fine.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by t.ara

[DayTri]

I have some mods I've been working on mostly for myself that haven't released yet. I use LE to develop and SE to play. It actually works quite well if you don't need .dll files, .bsa, or create any assets. If it's just quest mods and scripting, seems to work fine without conversion.

 

Reason I like to keep them separate is that by building the mod in LE I can be confident if I decide to switch back I don't lose anything. Also now I keep LE only for mod making or editing, which means the load time is much faster than before, since CK seems to load all your available assets by default.