The State of Bodies in FO4: Fusion Girl vs CBBE 3BBB

[thefabulousfink]

Hi I'm coming back to Fallout after a few years off and it seems like during that time a lot changed in the modding community.  As I've been rebuilding my mod list I came to the eternal question of "What Body Skeleton To Use?"  In the past I liked Fusion Girl for the slider shape and functionality and prior to version 1.70 or so it had reasonable support on Nexus and LL.  I have downloaded the newest version and it's nice, but since the author left the Nexus it seems like support and conversions aren't as common.  On the other hand it looks like CBBE with 3BBB and Skeletal Adjustments/Knee Fix have made a number of improvements to CBBE.

 

What are peoples opinions on the Pros and Cons of these two systems?  Are there any hard incompatibilities or unique features that make you pick one over the other?  Which do you see as the more commonly supported mod going forward?

 

[tzenrick]

I was using FG for about a year, then I switched back to CBBE with 3BBB, and had a ton of skin clipping through outfits, so I went back to regular CBBE with CBP physics, and it was much improved.

 

CBBE has the best overall support. Almost everything has a working bodyslide for CBBE. Fusion Girl, a little less so, and 3BBB even less. I haven't messed with TWB or AB yet beause there just seems to be limited outfit support for them, as in, I just don't see as many conversions for them as I do CBBE/FG.

 

I'm dying for a single universal standard for body shaping and outfits.

[genericuser332321]

3 hours ago, tzenrick said:

I'm dying for a single universal standard for body shaping and outfits.

That would be great, although unless the modding community collectively decided to support a single standard (as if that’ll happen) or Bethesda gives us a vanilla body with proper body morphing (that seems even less likely) then I suppose there will always be multiple standards to suit different tastes.

 

I started with CBBE, then moved to FG/BT3. I can’t remember what originally pushed me to FG; honestly, it may have been the single skeleton for males and females and the increased number of sliders. I think CBBE also felt a bit janky with the skeleton fix and all. However, I had a hell of a time getting FG to work correctly on my computer as I’d ended up with an outdated form of the ZeX Extended Skeleton and had to fix it myself (I eventually found the current skeleton), so by that point I was probably too committed to try CBBE again.

 

I think you’re right about the reduced support on Nexus since FG was removed, but get the impression that more of the major mods (at least on here) are designed around FG (DotC Re-Redux comes to mind). It somewhat feels like FG (or it’s derivatives) are the way of the future, but CBBE mostly “just works”. But, who knows; maybe I’m just justifying my use of FG.

[Nuka Cherry]

I think a lot of it comes down to bias (as in one you had a better experience with, one you know more, etc), but for me it is Fusion Girl. I find CBBE rubbery and slider limiting, and the knee fix was a bodge job to get it working after CBBE stopped development. DFS helps now, but I am more used to FG these days so community fixes for a body that is no longer being updated does not interest me so much as one still be worked on.

 

As to clothing, all of the key clothing mods are converted (for my tastes). I also run AAF and one of the best animations (the only one actively devloped) has FG as a hard requirement (SavageCabbages). The nexus exodus hurt FO4 modding, however justified (better to say Black Tree Gaming hurt modding), but the other reason FG bodyslides are less now is because most of the key mods are done. See the conversion tracking thread on FG bodyslides.

 

I also think the split in the community in bodies is... cough.. CBBE's fault, for reasons, so..err.. I will stick with FG.

[Karna5]

I think CBBE is a great choice for beginners and/or people who don't care about adult mods. I'm a big fan of Fusion Girl. To me the choice between CBBE and Fusion Girl isn't even close. I haven't had CBBE installed in my game for years and have no interest in it anymore, but I respect it for its low barrier of entry.

[genericuser332321]

52 minutes ago, Karna5 said:

I think CBBE is a great choice for beginners and/or people who don't care about adult mods. I'm a big fan of Fusion Girl. To me the choice between CBBE and Fusion Girl isn't even close. I haven't had CBBE installed in my game for years and have no interest in it anymore, but I respect it for its low barrier of entry.

I think these are my feelings exactly: the low barrier for entry. There’s ample support available for CBBE on Nexus, so it’s probably most people’s introduction to body morphs.

 

Having said that, since we are on LL instead of Nexus, I feel that there’s at least equal (if not better) support for FG here relative to CBBE. If you’re on LL and looking for a body morph mod then I can see you ending up with FG unless you have a specific reason to use CBBE.

[Sherlykaru]

I been using CBBE for years, the issue comes when you try to add adult mods to it, until this month i didn't noticed how bad i was doing until i updated to FG, everything during adult animations look better, for males and females. CBBE is great for clothes and physics, and even unreal body morphs, it all depends your final goal for modding.

[genericuser332321]

5 hours ago, Sherlykaru said:

CBBE is great for clothes and physics, and even unreal body morphs, it all depends your final goal for modding.

Would you say CBBE is better for physics than FG? I found the standard CBBE physics (non-3BBB) to be pretty good actually, but it’s been a few months since I’ve used it.

[Olmech]

CBBE for a fashion show. FG for kink.

[WandererZero]

On 6/18/2022 at 6:09 PM, thefabulousfink said:

I have downloaded the newest version and it's nice, but since the author left the Nexus it seems like support and conversions aren't as common. 

 

I was under this impression as well. Despite FG/Zex departing during the Nexodus...if you're not seeing conversions, you may not be looking in the right place. Yeah, you can find some on Nexus. But the true gold mine is here. There are still people doing conversions, but you just may not be seeing it.

 

 

[WandererZero]

On 6/18/2022 at 9:12 PM, tzenrick said:

I'm dying for a single universal standard for body shaping and outfits

 

This will happen right after I spontaneously develop the ability to shit solid gold turds that smell like a bouquet of roses.

 

The problem is, more than any other area of Bethesda modding....bodies are...little fiefdoms. There is drama and sadness. The wailing of children, the gnashing of teeth. But, honestly...I want a diverse collection of bodies. I don't want any one developer to wield or consolidate too much power over the direction of bodies and skeletons. Choice is never a bad thing.

 

I use FG...and yeah, I use UUNP Special over on the Skyrim side of  things. I've danced this dance, and while a unified body that did everything for everyone would be great...it won't happen, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

[Karna5]

8 hours ago, WandererZero said:

The problem is, more than any other area of Bethesda modding....bodies are...little fiefdoms.

 

I don't see it like that at all. For instance, in Fallout 4's early days there were a few very good modders trying to come up with a nude body for the game. Caliente and Cell (now Ousnius) weren't the first to do it, but because Caliente and Cell also brought to the table BodySlide and Outfit Studio, picking CBBE at the time was a no brainer.

 

Caliente and Ousnius more or less separated their efforts, and Ousnius concentrated more on the BS/OS angle. This was good for the modding community because it meant other artists could introduce bodies they liked and share them easily (JB, Atomic Beauty and even down the road Fusion Girl).

 

Each modder who introduced a new body did it because they were dissatisfied with the existing choices. Ralfetas with JB wanted more sliders to make better muscularly toned women. TheMilkDrinker with Atomic Beauty wanted to make better super curvy and muscular women and also didn't like the way the skeleton was used in the bodies at the time, so Atomic Beauty.

 

Each person who introduced a new body didn't do it because they wanted to own a turf in the modding community but because they worked with dedication and zeal to do something they liked and thought was a better approach, and they were kind enough to share their work with us.

 

The Fusion Girl team likewise wanted to do a more sophisticated integration between animations and body. They knew to do what they wanted they had to overhaul not just the sliders but also the textures, the meshes and, most importantly, the bones. They had to introduce new bones.

 

The incompatibility between bodies is not related to turf but to a genuine difference in what the modders/artists wanted to achieve.

 

I respect those differences, and it's why even six or seven years later there are legitimate reasons to pick even the earlier body types. If a Body does what you want it to do, pick it because of that and not because of any concept of turf wars.

 

I love CBBE. I also love dirty raider body (pre-CBBE) and some aspects of JB and some aspects of Atomic Beauty and several other bodies released since 2015.

 

But for me the Fusion Girl body is a perfect match. I can love FG without feeling threatened if somebody else likes CBBE more because each of us picks bodies for different reasons.

 

This is not a problem. A universal body isn't even a better situation than specialized bodies. I honor each modder and team of modders who makes something they love and shares it, regardless of whether I use their mod or not

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Karna5

[WandererZero]

6 hours ago, Karna5 said:

The incompatibility between bodies is not related to turf but to a genuine difference in what the modders/artists wanted to achieve.

 

Well...You have your view, and perspective...and I have mine. We'll agree to disagree.

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

On 6/21/2022 at 6:35 AM, WandererZero said:

 

Well...You have your view, and perspective...and I have mine. We'll agree to disagree.

I'll bite cause it's funny how everyone wants to talk about what they don't know. 

 

We (The ZeX Team) at the time tried our hardest to be open and work with Ousnius on improving CBBE with the ZeX work we had at the time. Proposed a number of features and updates that would bring it to a higher standard and were restricted super hard with permissions to basically being unable to work with CBBE. When we objected we were told that the features we proposed were not ones anyone would want and that no one would care about them anyway because no one cares about FO4.

So we went and did our own thing. Developed our own features and laid out our roadmap and what do you know? People did want what we offered and made. Wanted it so bad some idiot became a big name on riding our fuckin coattails introducing kludgefuck patches to CBBE... Fixed Knees? Fixed Shoulders? 3BBB? You're Welcome!

FG has never had any issues giving out the work we do to every other author, providing they give us the same respect and match that openness back to us. Atomic Beauty & Janebod had authors who worked on getting ZeX features into their respective mods and it's never been a problem. Ever. 

 

I've always been open to Ous coming to us and asking if we'd be cool to help improve CBBE, but he's too high on his own Skyrim farts and thinking he's superior to everyone that it ain't ever gonna be.


 

Edited June 26, 2022 by TheBottomhoodofSteel

[WandererZero]

23 minutes ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

We (The ZeX Team) at the time tried our hardest to be open and work with Ousnius on improving CBBE with the ZeX work we had at the time. Proposed a number of features and updates that would bring it to a higher standard and were restricted super hard with permissions to basically being unable to work with CBBE. When we objected we were told that the features we proposed were not ones anyone would want and that no one would care about them anyway because no one cares about FO4.

So we went and did our own thing. Developed our own features and laid out our roadmap and what do you know? People did want what we offered and made. Wanted it so bad some idiot became a big name on riding our fuckin coattails introducing kludgefuck patches to CBBE... Fixed Knees? Fixed Shoulders? 3BBB? You're Welcome!

Added Emphasis is mine.

 

Yeap. I didn't want to relay this story in my original reply. It's why I mentioned that, I have my perspective. Your story... It wasn't mine to tell, it was yours...and I remember having this convo with you a couple years ago on the ZeX discord. I've never questioned your attitude and stance on this subject, because it's plainly obvious and true...to wit: bodies are little power bases for some folks. Little fiefdoms for penis waving. FG's never been run like that, it's why I use it. Anyone with a fresh book of cluepons can get it up and going rapidly, and it honestly looks great, and FG has never thrown up obstacles to using it.

 

I also still crack the hell up when I think about some of the posts you made on the folks riding those coat tails post ZeX and FG release. Thems were the days. Three things anyone can count on are: Death, Taxes, and the biting acerbic tone of TBOS when he's annoyed or honked off.

 

Cheers mate.

[Twycross448]

Coming back to FO4 modding after a little over 3 years (2019), my choice between CBBE and FG was relatively simple in favour of CBBE, because FG *still* lacks a complete set of converted vanilla armours and clothes. At least to my knowledge. (Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't do Discord, Twitter or any other social media, so my information sourcing is a bit spotty these days.)

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

10 minutes ago, Twycross448 said:

Coming back to FO4 modding after a little over 3 years (2019), my choice between CBBE and FG was relatively simple in favour of CBBE, because FG *still* lacks a complete set of converted vanilla armours and clothes. At least to my knowledge. (Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't do Discord, Twitter or any other social media, so my information sourcing is a bit spotty these days.)

Man I love writing Descriptions that NO ONE READS! 

[Karna5]

1 hour ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Man I love writing Descriptions that NO ONE READS! 

*Laughs* Yeah, I can't count how many different ways I explicitly said my Stingwing mod on Nexus is not compatible with CBBE and cannot be converted to it and yet how many people asked me to convert it to CBBE *Laughs*

 

I honestly think a lot of the people who think you're territorial (to put it nicely) are people who want things to be converted to CBBE which cannot be converted to it *Laughs*

 

It's kind of funny how many hoops people try to jump to do on CBBE what ZEX and Fusion Girl do natively, and they get upset if someone tells them CBBE can't do it.

[Twycross448]

2 hours ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Man I love writing Descriptions that NO ONE READS! 

 

I quote from the description of FG here on LL:

 

Quote

 

- Clothing Refits for Vanilla (WIP)

Clothing refits are currently being worked on

 

 

Which I read as FG not having a complete set of vanilla refits. Is that wrong?

[Destynova99]

7 hours ago, Twycross448 said:

 

I quote from the description of FG here on LL:

 

 

Which I read as FG not having a complete set of vanilla refits. Is that wrong?

**The Official Fusion Girl 1.75+ Armor and Clothing Conversion Thread**

There are several vanilla outfit conversions. And the Zex team are working on their own official ones, and frankly they have most of them complete. I think it's just missing some Nuka World conversion at this point, if I'm not mistaken. And they're still actively working on them.

Then there's Fusion Girl Vanilla Outfits by briararoundroses to cover what hasn't officially been converted yet. They're older conversions but they still work pretty well. And then there's a couple spicier and skimpier conversions like Ghaan's and the conversion of 2pac4eva7's skimpy vanilla outfits by mordr3do. So whether you want something completely vanilla or something sexier, you're pretty much covered. And there are a lot of FG outfit conversions already done and more coming.

 

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

3 hours ago, Destynova99 said:

**The Official Fusion Girl 1.75+ Armor and Clothing Conversion Thread**

There are several vanilla outfit conversions. And the Zex team are working on their own official ones, and frankly they have most of them complete. I think it's just missing some Nuka World conversion at this point, if I'm not mistaken. And they're still actively working on them.

Then there's Fusion Girl Vanilla Outfits by briararoundroses to cover what hasn't officially been converted yet. They're older conversions but they still work pretty well. And then there's a couple spicier and skimpier conversions like Ghaan's and the conversion of 2pac4eva7's skimpy vanilla outfits by mordr3do. So whether you want something completely vanilla or something sexier, you're pretty much covered. And there are a lot of FG outfit conversions already done and more coming.

 

Nope. Last I checked and tried, all outfits are there. They're not perfection and It's been a WIP to improve what's there

[brat175]

I'm switching to fg. The reason I switch, it's to change and also fg has less polygons break on hips. Also another game style.

 

For me the problem of fg is the lack of skeletons choices. Under cbbe I use a skeleton that is not compatible with knee fix or 3bbb.

It's just a modified vanilla skeleton vanilla neck and head -smaller arm hands legs and shoulders but I love it.

 

Currently because I found nothing for zex, I'm forced to use a zex penako scaled to 0.82.

If anyone can port more skeletons variation to zex....

 

Or also create a good guide how to use these skeleton, what are the COM, how to use. What are the hkx. What software to use, ect. It's possible we can help.

 

[kziitd]

20 hours ago, Twycross448 said:

 

I quote from the description of FG here on LL:

 

 

Which I read as FG not having a complete set of vanilla refits. Is that wrong?

So you have misunderstood that the word WIP is only used to express modesty.

Any existing mod can be called WIP as long as it is still being updated.

The size of the FG installation package has shown that it is not just a “femalebody” resource.

There are already FG versions of all the vanilla armours and clothes. 

[brat175]

Thank for the zero help community. I finally I found alone how to change skeleton height. Open the skeleton, go to COM override an replace the field scale value by the one you want. For me the old value was 0.82.

 

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

On 6/26/2022 at 8:25 PM, WandererZero said:

 

I also still crack the hell up when I think about some of the posts you made on the folks riding those coat tails post ZeX and FG release. Thems were the days. Three things anyone can count on are: Death, Taxes, and the biting acerbic tone of TBOS when he's annoyed or honked off.

 

It's that low bullshit tolerance I got that makes it fun for everyone. I don't play that shit with people. I'm gonna say what I gotta say directly and I don't care how people feel. 

Like I said. I ain't insecure about the dick rider (singular) out there who used FG to chase they clout by copying what we did first onto CBBE (and IMO doing it worse) That's the only accolade he's ever gonna have goin for him ANYWAY... Originality went out the window as is.