BillyG Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) At the moment, I'm running a lot of mods using scripts - from LL and from Nexus. I can see how more sluggish mod activation gets - not only SL scenes, but mods that are supposed to trigger other mods like SD+ or POP activation. Some mods have a setting in their MCM to script activation frequency, and I've seen a "low performance mode" in one. But I'm hard pressed to tell which mods take a high load by constant background activation and/or heavy script engine use. If I turn on debugging in the respective MCM, I can see how often some mods activate - but that doesn't necessarily mean that they generate a high scripting load, it could be just check & exit. So as a mere user, I have to try to disable the most script-heavy mods, which add the least to my game experience. And yes, the indirect way is to disable mods and feel the the performance. But this is time-consuming, plus there is no objective way to tell - like start a new game and do some automated benchmark (or is there?)? => Is there an easy and direct way to profile/benchmark the mods/scripts to tell what mods take performance away, i.e. script activation frequency and/or script execution time? I'm seeing that there is a "bEnableProfiling" setting in the ini file: https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=INI_Settings_(Papyrus) - did someone succeed to use this and isolate script-heavy mods, for example with a tool like https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/39107 and https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/articles/52764? Thanks for any help with script lag, and sorry if this question has been asked before (I'm sure it has) but I haven't found a user-friendly method yet. Edited August 20, 2021 by BillyG Link to comment
Grey Cloud Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 18 minutes ago, BillyG said: I'm running a lot of mods using scripts - from LL and from Nexus. So is everybody else. Skyrim needs and uses scripts in order to function. What makes you think the problem is scripts? How do you define "high scripting load". Several other things can contribute to lag and poor performance. Is your game's memory configured correctly? Are your ini settings optimised? How many mods are you running? Is your hardware up to running that amount of mods? What size textures do you use? Link to comment
BillyG Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: What makes you think the problem is scripts? How do you define "high scripting load". Thanks for your answer so far. I define high scripting load by how long it takes after SD+ activation (by a mod like defeat) to get to the "you've been enslaved" box, or how long it takes after a guard arresting my pc to get to the POP activation. I can tell there is a direct connection between this lag and the amount of mods I activate - but I cannot specifically pin this to scripting of course. There is quite a lag in SL animation activation, too, that depends on how many mods I activate - but because this is linked to the whole SL animation stuff it seems to be even more tricky than general mods like SD+ or POP. 27 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: Is your game's memory configured correctly? What's "correct" in this context? I've got 16GB, and my task manager shows this is only used when in heavily modded cities. 27 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: Are your ini settings optimised? Spoiler [Archive] bLoadArchiveInMemory=1 sArchiveToLoadInMemoryList=Skyrim - Animations.bsa sResourceArchiveList=Skyrim - Misc.bsa, Skyrim - Shaders.bsa, Skyrim - Interface.bsa, Skyrim - Animations.bsa, Skyrim - Meshes0.bsa, Skyrim - Meshes1.bsa, Skyrim - Sounds.bsa sResourceArchiveList2=Skyrim - Voices_en0.bsa, Skyrim - Textures0.bsa, Skyrim - Textures1.bsa, Skyrim - Textures2.bsa, Skyrim - Textures3.bsa, Skyrim - Textures4.bsa, Skyrim - Textures5.bsa, Skyrim - Textures6.bsa, Skyrim - Textures7.bsa, Skyrim - Textures8.bsa, Skyrim - Patch.bsa [Audio] fMenuModeFadeInTime=1.0 fMenuModeFadeOutTime=3.0 fMusicDuckingSeconds=6.0 fMusicUnDuckingSeconds=8.0 [Bethesda.net] bEnablePlatform=0 [Camera] fMouseWheelZoomSpeed=10.00 [Combat] f1PArrowTiltUpAngle=0.7 f1PBoltTiltUpAngle=0.7 f3PArrowTiltUpAngle=2.5 fMagnetismLookingMult=0.0 fMagnetismStrafeHeadingMult=0.0 [Controls] fMouseHeadingSensitivityMax=0.0625 fMouseHeadingXScale=0.0200 fMouseHeadingYScale=0.8500 [Decals] uMaxSkinDecalPerActor=60 [Display] bEnableSnowMask=0 bEnableSnowRimLighting=0 bLockFrameRate=0 bVolumetricLightingDisableInterior=1 fDDOFFocusCenterweightExt=2 fDecalLifetime=30 fDOFMaxDepthParticipation=10000 fDynamicDOFFarBlur=0.4 fFirstSliceDistance=2000 fGlobalBrightnessBoost=0.0000 fGlobalContrastBoost=0.0000 fGlobalSaturationBoost=0.0000 fLightLODRange=4586 fShadowDirectionalBiasScale=0.3 fSnowGeometrySpecPower=3.00 fSnowNormalSpecPower=2.00 fSnowRimLightIntensity=0.30 fSparklesDensity=0.85 fSparklesSize=6.00 fSunShadowUpdateTime=1 fSunUpdateThreshold=0.5 sScreenShotBaseName=C:\Games\Skyrim\ScreenShot [General] bAlwaysActive=1 bBackgroundLoadVMData=1 bBorderRegionsEnabled=0 bModManagerMenuEnabled=0 fFlickeringLightDistance=0 iFPSClamp=0 sIntroSequence= sLanguage=ENGLISH sMainMenuMusic=\Data\Music\Special\MUS_MainTheme.xwm sTestFile1=Dawnguard.esm sTestFile2=HearthFires.esm sTestFile3=Dragonborn.esm uExterior Cell Buffer=36 uGridsToLoad=5 [GeneralWarnings] SGeneralMasterMismatchWarning=One or more plugins could not find the correct versions of the master files they depend on. Errors may occur during load or game play. Check the "Warnings.txt" file for more information. [Grass] bAllowCreateGrass=1 bAllowLoadGrass=0 bDrawShaderGrass=1 bEnableGrassFade=0 fGrassFadeRange=2325 fGrassMaxStartFadeDistance=7000.0000 fGrassMinStartFadeDistance=0.0000 fGrassWindMagnitudeMax=0 fGrassWindMagnitudeMin=0 iGrassCellRadius=2 iMaxGrassTypesPerTexure=2 iMinGrassSize=40 [HAVOK] fMaxTime=0.03333333 fMaxTimeComplex=0.06666667 [Imagespace] iRadialBlurLevel=2 [Interface] bShowTutorials=0 [Launcher] bEnableFileSelection=1 [LightingShader] fDecalLODFadeEnd=0.15 fDecalLODFadeStart=0.1 fEnvmapLODFadeEnd=0.25 fEnvmapLODFadeStart=0.2 [LOD] fDistanceMultiplier=1.00 [MapMenu] bWorldMapNoSkyDepthBlur=1 fMapWorldMaxPitch=90 fMapWorldMinPitch=0 fMapWorldYawRange=400 fWorldMapDepthBlurScale=0 fWorldMapMaximumDepthBlur=0 fWorldMapNearDepthBlurScale=0 [Menu] iConsoleSizeScreenPercent=40 iConsoleTextSize=20 [Papyrus] fUpdateBudgetMS=1.6 fExtraTaskletBudgetMS=1.6 fPostLoadUpdateTimeMS=1000.0 bEnableLogging=0 bEnableTrace=0 bLoadDebugInformation=0 [SaveGame] iAutoSaveCount=3 [Trees] bEnableTreeAnimations=0 bEnableTrees=0 fUpdateBudget=0 [Water] bReflectLODLand=0 bReflectLODObjects=0 bReflectLODTrees=0 bReflectSky=0 [Weather] bPrecipitation=1 27 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: How many mods are you running? 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Alternate Start LAL Patch.esp Landscape Fixes For Grass mods - Alternate start Locations.esp COTN Morthal - Alternate Start Patch.esp COTN Winterhold - Alternate Start Patch.esp Deviously Cursed Loot LAL AddOn.esp EEKs Whiterun Int - Alternative Start patch v1.3.esp JKs_The_Winking_Skeever_AlternateStartMods.esp Open Cities Skyrim.esp JK - DoS - OCS Patch.esp EEKs Whiterun Interiors - OCS.esp Dawn of Skyrim Director's Cut - OCS Patch.esp JKs Skyrim_Open Cities_Patch.esp Enhanced Solitude OC Patch.esp JK's Temple of Mara Open Cities Patch.esp AIOHisyOCS.esp BluePalaceTerrace-OCS-patch.esp OCS + Skyrim Sewers.esp JK's Winking Skeever OCS Patch.esp JK's The Drunken Huntsman OCS Patch.esp JK's Candlehearth Hall OCS Patch.esp JK's Mistveil Keep Open Cities Patch.esp JK's Bee & Barb OCS Patch.esp CWIOpenCitiesSEPatch.esp JK's Bannered Mare OCS Patch.esp OCW_CellSettings.esp RealisticWaterTwo.esp JKs Skyrim_RWT_Patch.esp RealisticWaterTwo - Open Cities Patch.esp Great Town of Ivarstead - RW2 Patch.esp RW2 Waterflow Disabler.esp WACCF_BashedPatchLvlListFix.esp Smashed Patch.esp Some of these are just to get a look, when I've settled for a mod configuration I'll proably have to deactivate hq mode like landscape and so on. Heavily modded cities like in Solitude are esp. performance consuming. The lag I've described doesn't seem to depend on those tough, they drag down fps, but not the mod lag which occur in general areas indoors and outdoors. Again, this is subjective, I don't know how to profile/benchmark this. 27 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: Is your hardware up to running that amount of mods? No, it isn't, that's why I'm trying to isolate mods that generate the script(?) lag and deactivate them if they don't add significantly to my gameplay. Please do note that my question is not about "Should I run a lot of mods with low-spec hardware" or "Should I buy something new", but "How do I isolate the mods that drag down performance the most" - esp. when these mods are only useful in specific situations, but might be active and performance-degrading constantly. 27 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: What size textures do you use? I've downsized some clothes-armor textures to 1024 with CAO, but am still in the "looking at mods" phase so I didn't downsize all of them yet. Edited August 20, 2021 by BillyG Link to comment
alex77r4 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) 49 minutes ago, BillyG said: Thanks for any help with script lag, and sorry if this question has been asked before (I'm sure it has) but I haven't found a user-friendly method yet. Step 1: Install Elephant's Script Latency Tester https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/62671 https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/24124 If your average script latency is below 100 ms forget any script problem. Step 2: Install Resaver https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/76776/ https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/5031 Open your savegame with ReSaver and look the Active Scripts section. If you are below 100 script forget any script problem. Edited August 20, 2021 by alex77r4 1 Link to comment
BillyG Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, alex77r4 said: Step 1: Step 2: Great, thanks! I didn't know these and will do and report back (might take a little while). Link to comment
Tlam99 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 Framerate 59fps and displaytweaks handles the script timeslot. Vsync enabled (physics) fUpdateBudgetMS = lastCycleTime * (UpdateBudgetBase / 16.66667) check SLAL loader script is not overwritten (by MNC e.g.) As @Grey Cloud said. Lots of factors can cause the lag. A script lag appears if a script has not terminated (loop), e.g. 2 start on same actor. Script lag is in most cases not the reason for lags, except smp loops, this might appear more often on heavy smp use mods. Different skins for each actor and no mipmaps. I bet, this is probably more often the reason. Link to comment
Grey Cloud Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 45 minutes ago, BillyG said: What's "correct" in this context? I've got 16GB Correct in this context is using the various tools which make Skyrim stable. https://www.loverslab.com/topic/136543-mod-organizer-2-other-tools-from-zero-to-hey-sexlab-is-working/ https://www.loverslab.com/topic/118460-skyrim-se-for-beginners-v-319-3bbb-hdt-smp-hph/ Run Bethini on your ini files. 49 minutes ago, BillyG said: Please do note that my question is not about "Should I run a lot of mods with low-spec hardware" The correct way to approach the problem is to start with a few mods and build up to what your (properly configured) game will take. The incorrect way is to load a shed load of mods and then start to try and figure out what the problem is. Skyrim SE is 5 years old it doesn't require the latest cracker-jack hardware. And just how many plug-ins are there in that list? You do realise that there is a limit of 254? I notice that you have a lot of mods which add a lot of extra NPCs to your game. Things like that can slow things down. Just out of interest, what FPS are you getting? Unless you get the basics right and have a stable vanilla game then fixating over scripts wont help. Link to comment
BillyG Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, T-lam said: Framerate 59fps and displaytweaks handles the script timeslot. Vsync enabled (physics) Um, I've got displaytweaks installed - am I supposed to enable VSync because it helps with physics? I've got physics hair and some physics gear (Bodyslide) enabled at the moment. Spoiler 36 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: Correct in this context is using the various tools which make Skyrim stable. Thank you, I think got the basics covered including all the SKSE stuff. I didn't know the link with the list though, but was using STEP for the vanilla stuff. I'll have a look at the pysics guide that was linked above. 36 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: And just how many plug-ins are there in that list? You do realise that there is a limit of 254? The esm/esl list is 200 atm, with about the same amount of esl. I do know about the limits because I used to put quite a lot of time into FONV modding, getting a stable game back then (which is quite an achievement with FO3/FONV). What tool to you use to measure fps, or is there somthing built into Skyrim? The fps vastly differs, going down a lot esp in modded cities. The basic game without a lot of mods is rock stable and very playable. Otherwise I would have given up on trying to use Skyrim on this hardware - but it seems to run just fine, unlike FO4. I don't really care about low-ish fps (it's a rpg to me, not a first-person shooter), but I do care about game-breaking problems like laggy mod activation - and I dunno if these problems are the same or depend on different mod types. 36 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: I notice that you have a lot of mods which add a lot of extra NPCs to your game. Things like that can slow things down. You're takling of the follower mods (i.e. npc waiting for me in some inn), or the extra npc like populated roads/towns and 3dnpc? I know the "populated" mods are a performance hog, but I didn't connect that to the mod activation lag yet. Thanks! I'm well aware, that step by step modding, carefully adding mods, and calm and steady evaluation of performance is the sure way to isolate problems. I do hope that there are some batch methods in additon to that like the links @alex77r4 gave above, because simply the one-by-one method, each with starting a new game and getting through LAL takes ages. Edit: I'd be much more enthusiastic about the one-by-one method if I'd know a way to objectively benchmark how a mod changes performance. At the moment, all I can to is start a new game, get SD+, POP or SL activated, and roughly look at how long that takes. Edited August 20, 2021 by BillyG Link to comment
Tlam99 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 24 minutes ago, BillyG said: VSync because it helps with physics? It's the timer. Flying npc or stuff like that can happen without binding smp to a reliable clock. This is what vsync provides. Otherwise, smp glitches and loops causing scipt lags. 1 Link to comment
Grey Cloud Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 You are obsessing about scripts. 46 minutes ago, BillyG said: What tool to you use to measure fps, or is there somthing built into Skyrim? Try the * key on the number pad. I use an ENB so I'm not sure if I get it from there but there are other ways. 47 minutes ago, BillyG said: I don't really care about low-ish fps (it's a rpg to me, not a first-person shooter), but I do care about game-breaking problems like laggy mod activation - and I dunno if these problems are the same or depend on different mod types. [Roughly speaking] Scripts run during a specific amount of time per frame. You get X amount of frames per second. Fewer frames per second means less time per second for scripts. Therefore any 'script lag' is a symptom not the cause. Whenever you enter a new cell all the objects in that cell are loaded. If you have lots of NPCs for example then they all have to be loaded. This takes time (=resources). Another cause of lag is textures lacking mipmaps. 52 minutes ago, BillyG said: I'm well aware, that step by step modding, carefully adding mods, and calm and steady evaluation of performance is the sure way to isolate problems. Then why didn't you do it? 53 minutes ago, BillyG said: because simply the one-by-one method, each with starting a new game and getting through LAL takes ages. If you use Vortex or MO then it is not a big issue. You don't have to do it a single mod at a time. Does starting a new test game take longer than typing posts, waiting for replies, getting a solution and implementing it? You are just making excuses because you are determined that the cause of the problem is scripts. Link to comment
BillyG Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: If you use Vortex or MO then it is not a big issue. You don't have to do it a single mod at a time. Does starting a new test game take longer than typing posts, waiting for replies, getting a solution and implementing it? You are just making excuses because you are determined that the cause of the problem is scripts. Thank you for your kind advice. I you carefully read my above posts, am not determined on the script cause - this was simply a suspicion, because mods I know are scripted are lagging. As stated above I'll try the solutions to measure script lag, thanks to alex77r4. The advantage of reading through posts is that I learn more about mods and maybe can predict the causes of problems better in the future. Feel free not to chime in :-) 9 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: Then why didn't you do it? Because of this - and it does take a very long time to start a new game on my hardware: 1 hour ago, BillyG said: Edit: I'd be much more enthusiastic about the one-by-one method if I'd know a way to objectively benchmark how a mod changes performance. At the moment, all I can to is start a new game, get SD+, POP or SL activated, and roughly look at how long that takes. 37 minutes ago, T-lam said: It's the timer. Flying npc or stuff like that can happen without binding smp to a reliable clock. This is what vsync provides. Otherwise, smp glitches and loops causing scipt lags. Thanks a lot, I didn't know of that connection yet. Link to comment
Grey Cloud Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, BillyG said: I you carefully read my above posts, am not determined on the script cause - this was simply a suspicion, because mods I know are scripted are lagging. And it has been pointed out by myself and the others that there are other things that are at least as likely to be causing the lag. Unless a mod is badly written, and the popular LL mods are generally not, then a script will fire up, do its thing and close (in milliseconds probably). It is not a case of script upon script running continuously and gradually overwhelming your game. Here's a save for a level 57 character with 280 hours on the clock, 250-300 mods, 260 followers and around 25,000 NPCs: Scripts 6129 ScriptInstances 189587 ActiveScripts 4 <------------- This is typical, I rarely, if ever see it go above 20. Single figures is the norm. HDT-PE and HDT-SMP are both resource hogs. Badly configured SMP can do bad things to your game. Edited August 20, 2021 by Grey Cloud Link to comment
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