Trooper1138 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 So I reinstalled the game with a bunch of mods last night and apparently I installed way too many animations, so the game crashes as soon as I click any of "New game/continue/load save" (no crash log either, apparently it crashed too soon to create a log). After the usual trouble-shooting, I've come to the conclusion that the number of animations is the issue (as FNIS also warns me of high CTD probability, even with FNIS XXL and the Animation Limit Crash Fix). FNIS says: " 12809 animations for 46 mods successfully included (character). ChAnims: 12809 CTD:109,3% pOpt:29,4% max: 11715 LC: 28606 (max. 26162)" So how many should I use maximum and which ones are recommended? Also my load order: Spoiler GameMode=Skyrim Skyrim.esm=1 Update.esm=1 Dawnguard.esm=1 HearthFires.esm=1 Dragonborn.esm=1 ApachiiHair.esm=1 ApachiiHairFemales.esm=1 hdtHighHeel.esm=1 Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm=1 SexLab.esm=1 SexLabAroused.esm=1 ZaZAnimationPack.esm=1 Devious Devices - Assets.esm=1 Devious Devices - Integration.esm=1 CreatureFramework.esm=1 Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp=1 DogmaEngine.esm=1 TaraUltimateFurniturePack.esm=1 Heels Sound.esm=1 Devious Devices - Expansion.esm=1 DeviousFramework.esm=1 SexLab - Sexual Fame [SLSF].esm=1 Skyrim - Utility Mod.esm=1 ScocLB.esm=1 daymoyl.esm=1 HighResTexturePack01.esp=1 HighResTexturePack02.esp=1 HighResTexturePack03.esp=1 CalienteVanillaArmorTweaks.esp=1 LoversComfort.esp=1 MF_RadiantProstitution.esp=1 SexLabSquirt.esp=1 SexLabNudeCreatures.esp=1 SexLabDefeat.esp=1 RaceMenu.esp=1 RaceMenuPlugin.esp=1 UIExtensions.esp=1 SkyUI.esp=1 amk Border Lace Lingerie.esp=1 Neo's Selene.esp=1 Captured Dreams.esp=1 Devious Deviants.esp=1 Sweet&Sexy Lingerie.esp=1 Schlongs of Skyrim.esp=1 SOS - Smurf Average Addon.esp=1 SOSRaceMenu.esp=1 SexLab Submit.esp=1 FNISspells.esp=1 Cumshot.esp=1 TheEyesOfBeauty.esp=1 Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp=1 Facelight.esp=1 Orc Enhancer.esp=1 Orc Female Body Replacer.esp=1 SexLabTools.esp=1 SexLabNudeCreaturesDG.esp=1 SexLabNudeCreaturesDB.esp=1 HentaiCreatures.esp=1 MoreNastyCritters.esp=1 SLAnimLoader.esp=1 RaceMenuMorphsCBBE.esp=1 SlaveTats.esp=1 SL Deadly Drain.esp=1 DibellanDefender.esp=1 animal_mansion.esp=1 Cum Shot Brothel.esp=1 Populated Lands Roads Paths Legendary.esp=1 hydra_slavegirls.esp=1 SexLab_Solutions.esp=1 SexLab-Stories.esp=1 xazPrisonOverhaulPatched.esp=1 Dogma - Thief.esp=1 SleepTight.esp=1 DfwSupport.esp=1 EquipableStockings.esp=1 Slaverun_Reloaded_Comments.esp=1 troublesofheroine.esp=1 TBOS.esp=1 Devious Lore.esp=1 Slaverun_Reloaded.esp=1 Dovahkiins_Infamy.esp=1 SexSlavesForVanillaBandits.esp=1 Immersive Wenches.esp=1 ScoclbQuestSexlab.esp=1 CumshotSL.esp=1 XiNafay - Shoes.esp=1 dcpack1.esp=1 SlaveTatsEventsBridge.esp=1 Bandit_Honeypot.esp=1 ImmerSlave-DeviceCut.esp=1 SexLabHorribleHarassment.esp=1 BrandingDeviceOfDoom.esp=1 SexLab_Dialogues.esp=1 qayl.esp=1 SimpleSlavery.esp=1 zDeadlyPleasures.esp=1 Deviously Cursed Loot.esp=1 NoOverpenetration.esp=1 DW.esp=1 SLPrivacy.esp=1 SLPleasure.esp=1 SexLab_PaySexCrime.esp=1 DeviouslyHelpless.esp=1 DD_Helpers.esp=1 SexLabDangerousNights2.esp=1 SexLabStatsManipulator.esp=1 EsturkLessChastity.esp=1 XPMSE.esp=1 SexLab Sound FX Replacer.esp=1 Apropos2.esp=1 SexLab Extra Voices.esp=1 RapeTattoos.esp=1 Deviously Cursed Loot LAL AddOn.esp=1 Deviously Enslaved.esp=1 daymoyl_DawnguardAddon.esp=1 RoadInspections.esp=1 SexLab-StoriesDevious.esp=1 S_L_U_T_S.esp=1 DibellasRecruit.esp=1 Devious Cidhna.esp=1 DeviousFollowers.esp=1 Laura's Bondage Shop.esp=1 CoCo_TDM2.esp=1 SexistGuards.esp=1 SLSO.esp=1 SexLabDirtyTalk.esp=1 submissivelola.esp=1 FloppySOS.esp=1 ERF - Ceraph.esp=1 Spank That Ass.esp=1 Luxury Collection.esp=1 Luxury Collection Vendor.esp=1 dvmb.esp=1 RewardYourFollowers.esp=1 Devious Devices - Equip.esp=1 SL_Kidnapped_Redux.esp=1 zDarkArena.esp=1 SexLab Approach.esp=1 zRitual.esp=1 SexLab Confabulation.esp=1 AddItemMenuLE.esp=1 AnubAnimObj.esp=1 SLAL_AnimationByBakaFactory.esp=1 DogmaAnimSLAL.esp=1 SLALAnimObj.esp=1 PsycheAnimationObjects.esp=1 FNIS.esp=1 ContinueGameNoCrash.esp=1 ccas_starts.esp=1 ImmerSlave.esp=1 Maria.esp=1 MariaDaymoyl.esp=1 MariaLAL.esp=1 sanguinesDebauchery.esp=1 zzEstrus.esp=1 zzEstrusMimic.esp=1
27X Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 1. Use XXL or Nemesis. 2. Do not use anims from any modder that doesn't know how to format or enumerate their anims which are: anubs Bakafactory Milky Tabboo/tabo/tabomilk/insert this weeks name here there are others but i don't use them 3. run nemesis or fnis after ANY change or addition to anims >OR< any mod or file that changes or hooks into behavior files. any. all. every. always. 4. do not run anims without a mod curation program, ever. 5. run nenemis or fnis when using unique player or followers, same as above. 6. keep poses separate from normal anims, church and state should not mix. Two profiles, two sets of behavior mods. 7. mods using outdated formatting like serial strip or nazootonoko/tropical paradise island should be added after anything else in case you have to remove them due to compatibility issues. 8. the SL set cap is either 500 normally or 750 if modded, the limit is hard capped until SL is updated.
Trooper1138 Posted April 1, 2020 Author Posted April 1, 2020 So I managed to get it down to this: 6721 animations for 25 mods successfully included (character). ChAnims: 6721 CTD:70,9% pOpt:21,7% max: 9477 LC: 18554 (max. 26162) with my animations folder looking like this: https://imgur.com/a/51jAGV9 but apparently that's still too much, because it's still crashing. I don't know what else I can get rid off though, seems like those are pretty much just the basics for the mods I'm using... Also, I don't know what Nemesis is. Should I try that one instead of FNIS?
27X Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 that's up to you and you still have baka factory anims so there's probably your crash right there. 6 minutes ago, Trooper1138 said: CTD:70,9% this number isn't a threshold, it's a chance. That max chance should be like 10% max. https://github.com/ShikyoKira/Project-New-Reign---Nemesis-Main
Trooper1138 Posted April 1, 2020 Author Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, 27X said: that's up to you and you still have baka factory anims so there's probably your crash right there. this number isn't a threshold, it's a chance. That max chance should be like 10% max. Which one is baka factory? Babo?
MadMansGun Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: FNIS says: " 12809 animations for 46 mods successfully included (character). ChAnims: 12809 CTD:109,3% pOpt:29,4% max: 11715 LC: 28606 (max. 26162)" a full fnis log would be helpful, also get this mod: https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/11208-animation-limit-crash-fix/ and stay away from that "nemesis" crap, it's not done yet.
MadMansGun Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: Also my load order: your load order is a bit fucked up and "SexLabNudeCreatures" should not be in it at all with the newer versions of MNC https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/3524-sexlab-more-nasty-critters-install-guide/ but read the "READ IMMEDIATELY v9 to v12 upgrade procedure.txt" first: https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/4130-more-nasty-critters-slal-edition/
Trooper1138 Posted April 1, 2020 Author Posted April 1, 2020 23 minutes ago, MadMansGun said: your load order is a bit fucked up and "SexLabNudeCreatures" should not be in it at all with the newer versions of MNC https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/3524-sexlab-more-nasty-critters-install-guide/ but read the "READ IMMEDIATELY v9 to v12 upgrade procedure.txt" first: https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/4130-more-nasty-critters-slal-edition/ Weird, I installed what I thought was the latest version (9.3), apparently NudeCreatures is still in there. I'm gonna try it without that now. 32 minutes ago, MadMansGun said: a full fnis log would be helpful, also get this mod: https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/11208-animation-limit-crash-fix/ and stay away from that "nemesis" crap, it's not done yet. Already have that mod, not sure if it's doing anything though, since I'm still crashing. Here's the latest log. I've already deactivated a lot of mods/anims I wanted to use, but I'm still not getting past the main menu of the game without crashing. Spoiler FNIS Behavior V7.6 XXL 01.04.2020 07:47:18 Skyrim 32bit: 1.9.32.0 - D:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Skyrim\ (Steam) Skeleton(hkx) female: XPMS2HDT (126 bones) male: XPMS2HDT (126 bones) Patch: "SKELETON Arm Fix" Reading BDanimations V0.9+ ... ChAnims:1464 CTD:16,6% pOpt:10,9% Reading Cum Shot Brothel V0.7.1 ... ChAnims:71 CTD:0,8% pOpt:0,5% Reading DD V4.0.0 ... ChAnims:635(493) CTD:11,2% pOpt:1,0% Reading DD2 V4.0.0 ... ChAnims:330(330) CTD:9,3% pOpt:0,0% Reading DD3 V4.1.0 ... ChAnims:102(102) CTD:2,5% pOpt:0,0% Reading DDSL V4.0.0 ... ChAnims:410 CTD:2,8% pOpt:0,9% Reading Defeat V5 ... ChAnims:39 CTD:0,5% pOpt:0,2% Reading DeviousFollowers V1.00 ... ChAnims:34(34) CTD:1,3% pOpt:0,0% Reading Deviously Cursed Loot V6.3 ... ChAnims:23 CTD:0,2% pOpt:0,1% Reading dftCreature V0.9+ ... ChAnims:8 CTD:0,1% pOpt:0,1% Reading dftHuman V0.9+ ... ChAnims:539 CTD:6,2% pOpt:4,1% Reading dftMiscAnimation V0.9+ ... ChAnims:218 CTD:2,1% pOpt:1,1% Reading FNISBase V7.6 ... ChAnims:0 CTD:0,0% pOpt:0,0% Reading FNISSpells V5.0.1 ... ChAnims:94 CTD:0,6% pOpt:0,0% NOTE: FNISSpells uses outdated behavior file (may invalidate CTD Load calculation) Reading Maria V1.24 ... ChAnims:29 CTD:0,1% pOpt:0,0% NOTE: Maria uses outdated behavior file (may invalidate CTD Load calculation) Reading sanguinesDebauchery >>Warning: Inconsistent mod sanguinesDebauchery. Number of animations differs between FNIS List (86) and corresponding behavior file (94)<< V?.? ... ChAnims:103(17) CTD:1,2% pOpt:0,0% NOTE: sanguinesDebauchery uses outdated behavior file (may invalidate CTD Load calculation) Reading SexLab V1.62 ... ChAnims:1025 CTD:6,5% pOpt:1,7% Reading SexLabAroused V?.? ... ChAnims:5 CTD:0,1% pOpt:0,0% Reading SexLabCreature V1.61 ... ChAnims:178 CTD:1,2% pOpt:0,3% Reading SlaverunReloaded V1.00 ... ChAnims:36(36) CTD:1,4% pOpt:0,0% Reading XPMSE V7.2 ... ChAnims:164(164) CTD:2,2% pOpt:0,0% Reading ZaZAnimationPack V7.00 ... ChAnims:829 CTD:3,6% pOpt:0,0% All Anim Lists scanned. Generating Behavior Files... Alternate Animation mods: 7 sets: 55 total groups: 188 added file slots: 1420 alternate files: 1176 Creature Pack not installed 6336 animations for 22 mods successfully included (character). ChAnims: 6336(1176) CTD:68,4% pOpt:21,0% max: 9267 LC: 17887 (max. 26162) 1 Warning(s).
27X Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Trooper1138 said: Reading BDanimations V0.9+ ... ChAnims:1464 CTD:16,6% pOpt:10,9% 5 minutes ago, Trooper1138 said: Reading DD V4.0.0 ... ChAnims:635(493) CTD:11,2% pOpt:1,0% Reading DD2 V4.0.0 ... ChAnims:330(330) CTD:9,3% pOpt:0,0% 5 minutes ago, Trooper1138 said: Reading dftHuman V0.9+ ... ChAnims:539 CTD:6,2% pOpt:4,1% 5 minutes ago, Trooper1138 said: Reading SexLab V1.62 ... ChAnims:1025 CTD:6,5% pOpt:1,7% AP/SL anims prolly aren't needed when you have 11 billion alternatives.
Trooper1138 Posted April 1, 2020 Author Posted April 1, 2020 Even if I delete all those, I'm still crashing and I'm down to almost no animations left... Also, what's with that error message about outdated behaviour files in the log? Could that be the issue and can I somehow fix that? Spoiler FNIS Behavior V7.6 XXL 01.04.2020 08:23:59 Skyrim 32bit: 1.9.32.0 - D:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Skyrim\ (Steam) Skeleton(hkx) female: XPMS2HDT (126 bones) male: XPMS2HDT (126 bones) Patch: "SKELETON Arm Fix" Reading Cum Shot Brothel V0.7.1 ... ChAnims:71 CTD:0,8% pOpt:0,5% Reading DDSL V4.0.0 ... ChAnims:410 CTD:2,8% pOpt:0,9% Reading Defeat V5 ... ChAnims:39 CTD:0,5% pOpt:0,2% Reading DeviousFollowers V1.00 ... ChAnims:34(34) CTD:1,3% pOpt:0,0% Reading Deviously Cursed Loot V6.3 ... ChAnims:23 CTD:0,2% pOpt:0,1% Reading FNISBase V7.6 ... ChAnims:0 CTD:0,0% pOpt:0,0% Reading FNISSpells V5.0.1 ... ChAnims:94 CTD:0,6% pOpt:0,0% NOTE: FNISSpells uses outdated behavior file (may invalidate CTD Load calculation) Reading Maria V1.24 ... ChAnims:29 CTD:0,1% pOpt:0,0% NOTE: Maria uses outdated behavior file (may invalidate CTD Load calculation) Reading sanguinesDebauchery >>Warning: Inconsistent mod sanguinesDebauchery. Number of animations differs between FNIS List (86) and corresponding behavior file (94)<< V?.? ... ChAnims:103(17) CTD:1,2% pOpt:0,0% NOTE: sanguinesDebauchery uses outdated behavior file (may invalidate CTD Load calculation) Reading SexLabAroused V?.? ... ChAnims:5 CTD:0,1% pOpt:0,0% Reading SexLabCreature V1.61 ... ChAnims:178 CTD:1,2% pOpt:0,3% Reading SlaverunReloaded V1.00 ... ChAnims:36(36) CTD:1,4% pOpt:0,0% Reading XPMSE V7.2 ... ChAnims:164(164) CTD:2,2% pOpt:0,0% Reading ZaZAnimationPack V7.00 ... ChAnims:829 CTD:3,6% pOpt:0,0% All Anim Lists scanned. Generating Behavior Files... Alternate Animation mods: 4 sets: 30 total groups: 48 added file slots: 284 alternate files: 251 Creature Pack not installed 2015 animations for 14 mods successfully included (character). ChAnims: 2015(251) CTD:17,4% pOpt:2,1% max: 11558 LC: 4561 (max. 26162) 1 Warning(s). EDIT: nvm, I'm an idiot... if I disable all mods, I can get past the menu, so maybe it's not the animations after all and I've been chasing the wrong issue...
MadMansGun Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: Weird, I installed what I thought was the latest version (9.3), apparently NudeCreatures is still in there. I'm gonna try it without that now. that's the old MNC, this is the updated one: https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/4130-more-nasty-critters-slal-edition/ please read the "READ IMMEDIATELY v9 to v12 upgrade procedure.txt" 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: Reading sanguinesDebauchery >>Warning: Inconsistent mod sanguinesDebauchery. Number of animations differs between FNIS List (86) and corresponding behavior file (94)<< that's a problem, something is wrong with that mod. 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: Creature Pack not installed there's no point in having MNC installed if you don't even have the FNIS creature pack installed. https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/3524-sexlab-more-nasty-critters-install-guide/
Trooper1138 Posted April 1, 2020 Author Posted April 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, MadMansGun said: that's the old MNC, this is the updated one: https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/4130-more-nasty-critters-slal-edition/ please read the "READ IMMEDIATELY v9 to v12 upgrade procedure.txt" Oh, damn, yeah, I was using the wrong one then. 5 minutes ago, MadMansGun said: that's a problem, something is wrong with that mod. That is the correct one though, right? I downloaded the bottom 2 files ( SDPlus20200329.7z and SDResources20191031.7z). 5 minutes ago, MadMansGun said: there's no point in having MNC installed if you don't even have the FNIS creature pack installed. https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/3524-sexlab-more-nasty-critters-install-guide/ Oh yeah, I only deactivated it for testing when I also deactivated MCN. Also, I'm at least getting as far as into the character creator now (haven't tested farther yet), if I disable Slaverun Reloaded and Troubles of Heroine... I'd really like to use Slaverun though, so I'm hoping I can get that one working too somehow... also earlier I got the error message the Slaverun Reloaded wants at least DD Integration 4.1... but I'm running v 4.3 of that...
donttouchmethere Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: Oh, damn, yeah, I was using the wrong one then. Just remove old MNC (and sexlabnudecreatures) and install the MNC SLAL version Grab FNIS creatures and install it, it won't bite you and you can't have Sexlab creature animations without it. 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: That is the correct one though, right? The FNIS warning for SD+ can be ignored. It would be nice if @DeepBlueFrog could repair his FNIS animations some day. But for now you can use SD+ without issues (animation wise) I do that since 3 years now and only know about that warning since FNIS show calculated CTD chances. 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: I downloaded the bottom 2 files ( SDPlus20200329.7z and SDResources20191031.7z). That's the right ones. Again: you can use SD+ even with those FNIS warnings. Even @fore's own addon gives that warning: NOTE: FNISSpells uses outdated behavior file (may invalidate CTD Load calculation) 1 hour ago, Trooper1138 said: also earlier I got the error message the Slaverun Reloaded wants at least DD Integration 4.1... but I'm running v 4.3 of that... you need a patch for that:
donttouchmethere Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 4 hours ago, Trooper1138 said: ImmerSlave-DeviceCut.esp=1 Remove this. It is very old and it's functions are included now in DDi 4.3. Even worse you will get glitches with DDs with it installed. 4 hours ago, Trooper1138 said: zzEstrusMimic.esp=1 Better solution for estrus integration with other LL mods is Especially for mods like DCL, Kynes Blessing, deviously enchanted chests, FEMA, MME... zzEstrusMimic is only used by: Haunted House by Delzaron.
donttouchmethere Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 4 hours ago, Trooper1138 said: TaraUltimateFurniturePack.esm=1 Do you mix it with ZAZ8 or newer? If so you might get glitches and crashes from this also. Best to update to ZAZ8+ if you want the full @t.ara madness =D arghs! You're mixing so many mods that don't go well to go together in one LO that I feel dizzy now. ? Alternative start would need to be pretty at the end of your LO. You have multiple LAL addons that might not go well together. ⚠️ Even if you can solve your creature issue you will have a lot more possible CTDs and clusterfucks ahead just from that Setup
Trooper1138 Posted April 1, 2020 Author Posted April 1, 2020 11 hours ago, donttouchmethere said: Just remove old MNC (and sexlabnudecreatures) and install the MNC SLAL version Grab FNIS creatures and install it, it won't bite you and you can't have Sexlab creature animations without it. The FNIS warning for SD+ can be ignored. It would be nice if @DeepBlueFrog could repair his FNIS animations some day. But for now you can use SD+ without issues (animation wise) I do that since 3 years now and only know about that warning since FNIS show calculated CTD chances. That's the right ones. Again: you can use SD+ even with those FNIS warnings. Ah, good to know. 11 hours ago, donttouchmethere said: you need a patch for that: Ah, thanks. 11 hours ago, donttouchmethere said: Remove this. It is very old and it's functions are included now in DDi 4.3. Even worse you will get glitches with DDs with it installed. Better solution for estrus integration with other LL mods is Especially for mods like DCL, Kynes Blessing, deviously enchanted chests, FEMA, MME... zzEstrusMimic is only used by: Haunted House by Delzaron. But that one does include non-optional impregnation, no? That's why I didn't wanna use this. Or can you disable that in the options? And got it, deleted devices cutting mod, thanks. 11 hours ago, donttouchmethere said: Do you mix it with ZAZ8 or newer? If so you might get glitches and crashes from this also. Best to update to ZAZ8+ if you want the full @t.ara madness =D arghs! You're mixing so many mods that don't go well to go together in one LO that I feel dizzy now. ? Alternative start would need to be pretty at the end of your LO. You have multiple LAL addons that might not go well together. ⚠️ Even if you can solve your creature issue you will have a lot more possible CTDs and clusterfucks ahead just from that Setup OK, I may be blind, but I thought 7.0 was the latest ZAZ version? I got it from here: As for load order, I'm using LOOT, should I not do that? Also, thanks for taking the time and looking through my mess, guess I got a bit carried away when installing... Is there maybe a list of essential mods for certain things? I pretty much mostly want stuff like Slaverun/player slavery and all that jazz, some nice (rough) animations and some nice integration (so stuff like Solutions and Dialogue etc).
donttouchmethere Posted April 2, 2020 Posted April 2, 2020 On 4/1/2020 at 10:13 PM, Trooper1138 said: But that one does include non-optional impregnation, no? That's why I didn't wanna use this. Or can you disable that in the options? oh! ? I didn't occurred to me that someone doesn't want that ? If you don't want to go the full impregnation way you don't need estrus + although it also adds: > chaurus spit attacks with tentacle attack! I can't be the only one that likes stuff like that ? I believe you can deactivate the pregnancy part ? I just never tried ? On 4/1/2020 at 10:13 PM, Trooper1138 said: OK, I may be blind, but I thought 7.0 was the latest ZAZ version? I got it from here: it's like this: ZAZ 7 by zaz is atm somewhat the minimalist zaz version ZAZ 8 or even 8+ by t.ara are the newest zaz versions and add massive stuff to skyrim. If you have no mod that uses anything of zaz 8+ you're fine with zaz 7 On 4/1/2020 at 10:13 PM, Trooper1138 said: As for load order, I'm using LOOT, should I not do that? Don't get me wrong. If you have no experience how to sort a LO, then LOOT is needed to get a crash free LO. Just some mods need to be moved by hand, because LOOT doesn't know the right place for everything. Also LOOT is great to get a working base setup and after that you can modify it to you licking. And it gives warnings if something is totally off with the installed mods, like missing masters or mods that need cleaning. My evolution was: At the beginning I only sorted with LOOT The more mods I added, especially LL mods, the more glitches I saw in-game after LOOT sorted my LO That's then I started to first use LOOT and then moved some mods manually to fix glitches in-game. If my LO started to crash after me playing around I used LOOT again to make my game stable again. After awhile I saw that LOOT sorted some mods always to the same spots (or didn't move them at all) and I just remembered those and started to move other mods between those that LOOT sorted always in the same style. Now I sort everything via GTF (guts-feeling) + what LOOT taught me + Try and error + how mod authors sort their masters in mods (some are even sorted right!) + my sense for Skyrim logic + NMM style overwrites
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