The Book of UUNP "Circulated in Skyrim"

[DatWombat]

So I have a brand new PC, and I think my Skyrim is re-setup with my old mods. Now that everything is up and working again, I am dusting off my old WIP mods.  I remembered where I left off. . . 

 

I planned on doing a "Circulated in Skyrim" patch for the Book of UUNP, but one my PC broke and two Gamefever hasn't bothered replying to me in well, lots and lots of months. I asked for some extra permissions regarding his work, and no reply means no extra permissions. . .

 

So I'm working with the permissions I do have, and I want to work his mod into my "Circulated in Skyrim" series. It won't be a small project, and it'll take a lot of work, as I'm gonna have to do a lot of things from scratch. For those of you who don't know my work, my "Circulated in Skyrim" mods use leveled lists to distribute mod content into Skyrim. It takes me weeks and weeks to do, but I'll do anything to keep my Papyrus runnin' smoothly. Here is are a few links regarding the series -

 

 

 

Now the reason why I'm bring up The Book of UUNP and mods (other than self-advertising) is because I wanted to see what kind of feedback I might get early-on. The Book of UUNP is a huge mod, and I have not personally looked over every armor in-game. I want to know, are there any concerns about the mod, such as misspellings or unbalanced gear? Do you have any ideas regarding this "CIS Patch", or anything comments about the series or my work?

 

The Book of UUNP already has leveled lists which it uses to distribute gear in Skyrim. However, there is a slight problem. . . Well, two actually.

 

The CIS series is intended to control your loot by-itself, so any mod that adds its own leveled lists can cause characters and containers to spawn with more copies of items than they actually need. This problem is made most evident when one or more mods modify the same outfit templates, which is the case with The Book of UUNP and the CIS series. When you merge these mods together, you'll have NPCs spawning with multiple copies of armor, which I find rather annoying.

 

The creator of The Book of UUNP does now allow his .esp to be modified directly, or for his files to be directly referenced. This means I can't modify The Book of UUNP's .esp with a quick fix and distribute the new file. Instead, I have to make a new .esp that will recreate every leveled list and outfit template from scratch, and create a tutorial for users to make a few edits to their Book of UUNP .esp

 

It's a major inconvenience, but you gotta respect permissions. I'm game for discussion, and I'd like to hear from y'alls!

[09890989]

If you don't mind me suggesting at this point you could adopt the mod, but respect a few key things

1) don't attempt to profit off the mod as you would be inherently profiting off of someone else's work, which would make you an ass hat if you did

2) include a disclaimer about the dilemma and the appropriate links that make it clear whose work you're using and make it painfully obvious

3) feel free to take it down if the author magically comes and tells you to take it down

[DatWombat]

3 minutes ago, 09890989 said:

If you don't mind me suggesting at this point you could adopt the mod, but respect a few key things

1) don't attempt to profit off the mod as you would be inherently profiting off of someone else's work, which would make you an ass hat if you did

2) include a disclaimer about the dilemma and the appropriate links that make it clear whose work you're using and make it painfully obvious

3) feel free to take it down if the author magically comes and tells you to take it down

To my knowledge, Gamefever is still an active member of the Nexus. He logs-in regularly, maybe every week or two.

 

1) I would certainly be an asshat if I ever pulled a stunt like that.

2) That seems like a good idea, it's always a good call to take such measures.

3) As I mentioned, I think he's still around, but it would be a blatant violation of his TOS if I did "adopt" his mod.

 

If he had me take it down, I could lose a lots of work. Creating hundreds, if not thousands of entries in TES5edit and Creationkit by hand takes weeks of work. My "Sexy Vanilla Armor CIS" mod took me about 45+ hours, divided over two to three hours of work every night.

 

But thank you for the suggestion and pointers. There are a few mods I'd love to take on and "adopt" on a later date, but I think The Book of UUNP is a bit sketchy to do so with. I'll be sure to keep your key things in mind though when I pick up another one's work!

[09890989]

On 5/19/2019 at 11:38 PM, Nretsmah said:

To my knowledge, Gamefever is still an active member of the Nexus. He logs-in regularly, maybe every week or two.

 

1) I would certainly be an asshat if I ever pulled a stunt like that.

2) That seems like a good idea, it's always a good call to take such measures.

3) As I mentioned, I think he's still around, but it would be a blatant violation of his TOS if I did "adopt" his mod.

 

If he had me take it down, I could lose a lots of work. Creating hundreds, if not thousands of entries in TES5edit and Creationkit by hand takes weeks of work. My "Sexy Vanilla Armor CIS" mod took me about 45+ hours, divided over two to three hours of work every night.

 

But thank you for the suggestion and pointers. There are a few mods I'd love to take on and "adopt" on a later date, but I think The Book of UUNP is a bit sketchy to do so with. I'll be sure to keep your key things in mind though when I pick up another one's work!

Oh i just assumed he was functionally MIA, good luck on establishing contact tho

[DatWombat]

15 minutes ago, 09890989 said:

Oh i just assumed he was functionally MIA, good luck on establishing contact tho

Heh, it seems he's still around. I tried contacting him three or four times over the course of hmm. . .

 

Nine or ten months? 

 

I did get a reply, but not one that answered my question. So I'm just workin' with what I got! 

 

And on that note, progress is great! 

[Darkwing241]

Book of UUNP is a great mod, but it does kind of dominate a load order.  You have to do a ton of work every install to check what is a replacer/add to level list/craft only.  It's a mod that just doesn't make things easy from the start, just installing it is like 6 or 7 files, all of which are named SUPER poorly and basically assume the user has the same level of knowledge as the mod maker.  Finally the fact that Book of UUNP integrates it's armor into the leveled list kind of makes other armor mods feel out of place.

 

I love the idea of making a framework to integrate everything into the leveled lists.  A big part of The Book of UUNP's appeal is the leveled list, so much so that I find myself just not using other armor mods because they are only craftable.

 

I probably won't use your mod if it conflicts or overwrites parts of Book of UUNP.  I most likely would use it if it is compatible. 

 

I am a little worried about the format of "lots of little patches."  Either the user would have to merge files together (and know how to do that) or you are going to end up with a big annoying list of patches in your mod manager.

[Varithina]

24 minutes ago, Darkwing241 said:

Book of UUNP is a great mod, but it does kind of dominate a load order.  You have to do a ton of work every install to check what is a replacer/add to level list/craft only.  It's a mod that just doesn't make things easy from the start, just installing it is like 6 or 7 files, all of which are named SUPER poorly and basically assume the user has the same level of knowledge as the mod maker.  Finally the fact that Book of UUNP integrates it's armor into the leveled list kind of makes other armor mods feel out of place.

 

Not too sure what esps you have for it, but I have only 2, one called the book of uunp iron and steel.esp, the other the book of uunp - textures, no extra level lists esp are required as they are part of the iron and steel esp, that is for v1.67, true there are a ton of other files but they are pretty much all bodyslide for the various books so to speak.

[Darkwing241]

54 minutes ago, Varithina said:

Not too sure what esps you have for it, but I have only 2, one called the book of uunp iron and steel.esp, the other the book of uunp - textures, no extra level lists esp are required as they are part of the iron and steel esp, that is for v1.67, true there are a ton of other files but they are pretty much all bodyslide for the various books so to speak.

I have 8 separate downloads most of which are insanely poorly labeled.  Like confusingly labeled where I almost suspect they were labeled that way on purpose.

 

05,06,09,11 and 12 are the five HDT you need to to get all the types of armor in HDT.  There are also two seperate downloads for bug fixes, that are still seperate files after two years (unless they aren't needed anymore? who the fuck knows).  I also Have another file that I believe is the main file? again who the fuck knows,  I just followed some guide written by a third party.

 

I really can't emphasize enough how poorly organized the download section is.

[Grey Cloud]

10 minutes ago, Darkwing241 said:

Like confusingly labeled where I almost suspect they were labeled that way on purpose.

I don't think the labelling is that bad. I do think that the whole thing is overly and unnecessarily complicated and that is why I've never bothered with it.

The LE version has Total DLs 568,824; Unique DLs 79,994; and Endorsements 6,450. That says it all really.

[Darkwing241]

19 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

I don't think the labelling is that bad. I do think that the whole thing is overly and unnecessarily complicated and that is why I've never bothered with it.

I mean, it's pretty much mandatory to use a third party guide, or dig into the files manually and piece it together. 

 

There's also a lot of super unclear extra stuff that just leads to a general sense of confusion about whether there is a complete file or you need a bunch of little files.  There is no clarity at all to if the patch is needed for new downloads or just and older version.  The HDT version consists of almost all HDT specific files, expect for some that are not HDT specific.

 

I mean, obviously I'm being a little bit hyperbolic, but it really is hard to do much worse.

[DatWombat]

4 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

Book of UUNP is a great mod, but it does kind of dominate a load order.  You have to do a ton of work every install to check what is a replacer/add to level list/craft only.  It's a mod that just doesn't make things easy from the start, just installing it is like 6 or 7 files, all of which are named SUPER poorly and basically assume the user has the same level of knowledge as the mod maker.  Finally the fact that Book of UUNP integrates it's armor into the leveled list kind of makes other armor mods feel out of place.

 

I love the idea of making a framework to integrate everything into the leveled lists.  A big part of The Book of UUNP's appeal is the leveled list, so much so that I find myself just not using other armor mods because they are only craftable.

 

I probably won't use your mod if it conflicts or overwrites parts of Book of UUNP.  I most likely would use it if it is compatible. 

 

I am a little worried about the format of "lots of little patches."  Either the user would have to merge files together (and know how to do that) or you are going to end up with a big annoying list of patches in your mod manager.

I've never had much trouble with The Book of UUNP. It only uses a few .esps, although the number of files that need installed is a bit excessive. I found it somewhat confusing to get all of the parts I need, but it really doesn't seem that hard. As long as you read the Nexus page thoroughly and use a mod manager, it's as easy as drag n' drop. Although, I don't see how the integrated leveled lists make other armor mods feel out of place. . . I'd find it very out of place if me (the player) were the only one with access to it!

 

I will not use an armor mod that does not give its gear to NPCs, period. If I like the mod enough, I'll make a mod that does just that. . . hence, the CIS series.

 

The Book of UUNP CIS will conflict with The Book of UUNP. As a matter of fact, the CIS series as a whole conflicts. Both edit Outfit Templates, and if you merge them traditionally, you'll have NPCs spawning with multiple pieces of gear, like two helmets. Because Gamefever (the Book of UUNP uploader) will not allow users to modify his .esp, I can't distribute a patched .esp. My fix requires a little work, but it's the best script-free way to use The Book of UUNP and other armor mods and have them distributed to NPCs and lootable objects.

 

To be frank, the CIS Series is intended for those who know a thing or two about mods. You will need to know how to use Wyre Bash, and advanced users would benefit from TES5edit. They are meant to be merged, and designed to be compiled into a single patch or file.

4 hours ago, Varithina said:

Not too sure what esps you have for it, but I have only 2, one called the book of uunp iron and steel.esp, the other the book of uunp - textures, no extra level lists esp are required as they are part of the iron and steel esp, that is for v1.67, true there are a ton of other files but they are pretty much all bodyslide for the various books so to speak.

Same here, two .esps. you don't need bodyslide files, but most of those extra addons are said files. Not everyone uses Bodyslide, so it's understandable why they'd be broken up.

3 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

I have 8 separate downloads most of which are insanely poorly labeled.  Like confusingly labeled where I almost suspect they were labeled that way on purpose.

 

05,06,09,11 and 12 are the five HDT you need to to get all the types of armor in HDT.  There are also two seperate downloads for bug fixes, that are still seperate files after two years (unless they aren't needed anymore? who the fuck knows).  I also Have another file that I believe is the main file? again who the fuck knows,  I just followed some guide written by a third party.

 

I really can't emphasize enough how poorly organized the download section is.

They don't seem to be labeled that bad. They are numbered and named, so they aren't too bad. I suspect Gamefever isn't a native English speaker, but I could be wrong. But hey, cut 'em some slack.

 

I feel like the download process could be lots easier, but I really don't think it's that bad. I just dumped them into NMM and Vortex, and ran Bodyslide and the whole mod works wonderfully. It just takes a little readin'.

3 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

I don't think the labelling is that bad. I do think that the whole thing is overly and unnecessarily complicated and that is why I've never bothered with it.

The LE version has Total DLs 568,824; Unique DLs 79,994; and Endorsements 6,450. That says it all really.

Agreed. Although, the sheer volume of HDT-enabled armors was too irresistible. I love, love variety.

2 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

I mean, it's pretty much mandatory to use a third party guide, or dig into the files manually and piece it together. 

 

There's also a lot of super unclear extra stuff that just leads to a general sense of confusion about whether there is a complete file or you need a bunch of little files.  There is no clarity at all to if the patch is needed for new downloads or just and older version.  The HDT version consists of almost all HDT specific files, expect for some that are not HDT specific.

 

I mean, obviously I'm being a little bit hyperbolic, but it really is hard to do much worse.

Maybe it's because I have modding experience, but I found everything I needed to know on the Nexus page. It is a lot of downloads (which could be condensed). It could be just me, but I didn't find anything confusing. The HDT patches were confusing, but as I mentioned they are numbered and each one has a small description. 

 

I think you could do much, much worse. Try not labeling them at all? 

[DatWombat]

 

8 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

I probably won't use your mod if it conflicts or overwrites parts of Book of UUNP.  I most likely would use it if it is compatible. 

On the topic of conflicts, I just did a little testing, and I had some ideas. As it stands, I have CISCore, SexyVanillaCIS, GirlsHeavyArmorCIS, and TheBookofUUNPCIS and their respective master files installed. All but CISCore modify outfit templates, which determine what an NPC wears. In the past, when I merged CIS files with The Book of UUNP, I had NPCs spawning with multiple sets of armor. I just made a Bashed Patch using all of the above mods, and the new Outfit Templates use CIS leveled lists, as opposed to The Book of UUNP. With that in mind, (and because a Bashed Patch traditionally goes at the end of your load order), my NPCs shouldn't spawn with more than one set of armor, and the armor they do spawn with will only be those managed by my CIS mods.

 

I wondered if Wyre Bash decided to override The Book of UUNP's Outfit Templates with CIS ones because I have so many CIS mods that alter the same Outfit Templates. So I remade my Bashed Patch using only a single CIS patch and The Book of UUNP. I had the same results (and I completely removed the other CIS plugins from my Data folder, to make sure Wyre Bash definately did not consider them when making a Patch.)

 

Huh. I dunno why, but I can't seem to recreate the problem I had with my old Skyrim. Maybe CIS and The Book of UUNP are more compatible than I thought.

 

But, a new idea dawned on me. What if, I just had CISCore replace ALL outfits (that are modified in the CIS series) in Skyrim? That way, as long as you leave CISCore at the far end of your load order, it will manage your NPC outfits by itself, preventing double-sets of gear from spawning. If you have two many .esps, you could easily condense the CIS series into two mods, a merged plugin and CISCore. Heck, you might even be able to merge CISCore into a plugin.

[Darkwing241]

15 hours ago, Nretsmah said:

To be frank, the CIS Series is intended for those who know a thing or two about mods. You will need to know how to use Wyre Bash, and advanced users would benefit from TES5edit. They are meant to be merged, and designed to be compiled into a single patch or file.

So I know a thing or two about mods, up to including releasing my own, and I have never found a need to use Wyre Bash (although I am certainly not an expert).  So it's not like it's as simple as "not for beginners." It's a particular skill set.

 

I mean if it can't be reasonably done in a user friendly way, than by all means do it that way.  Or.... do it however you want  because my opinion doesn't really matter. 

[DatWombat]

6 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

So I know a thing or two about mods, up to including releasing my own, and I have never found a need to use Wyre Bash (although I am certainly not an expert).  So it's not like it's as simple as "not for beginners." It's a particular skill set.

 

I mean if it can't be reasonably done in a user friendly way, than by all means do it that way.  Or.... do it however you want  because my opinion doesn't really matter. 

I thought Wyre Bash was considered sort of a necessity for anyone serious about modding. It's a simple way to keep mods from overwriting each other. I don't know what else people use, but to me it seems like a very simple-to-use tool that anyone can use. I mean, Bashed Patches are just a few clicks. . . the software takes care of everything else. Certainly a big difference from booting TES5Edit and merging mods yourself.

 

I feel as though the CIS mods are user friendly, since all it takes is Bashed Patch or one of multiple means of merging plugins. But they aren't plug and play that's for sure. It takes a little work to make them work proper.

 

Well, your opinion matters to me. While I mod for myself, I try to make my mods usable by the community. It's the least I can do for the community, and feedback is appreciated.

 

You're telling me that my mods are not user-friendly enough. While I somewhat disagree, I still have been looking at ways to make them more user-friendly. I'm experimenting with a small rework for the whole system, which should make merges go faster and reduce file size. I'm also thinking about making an installer. . . which could use pre-merged CIS patches, but it would be extremely time consuming to make and would still require the user to make a Bashed Patch (if they want their other armor mods to play nice). I know for sure that I'd like to give users tutorials on how to use the CIS mods. That way, even if my mods can't be made more user-friendly, at least there'd be a step-by-step guide to using them.

[DatWombat]

1 hour ago, Nretsmah said:

Certainly a big difference from booting TES5Edit and merging mods yourself.

Hot damn, TES5Edit makes merging mods a breeze! It merged the CIS series no problem! Granted, CIS mods are built to be merged, but still. I might write up a tutorial sometime.

1 hour ago, Nretsmah said:

You're telling me that my mods are not user-friendly enough. While I somewhat disagree, I still have been looking at ways to make them more user-friendly. I'm experimenting with a small rework for the whole system, which should make merges go faster and reduce file size. I'm also thinking about making an installer. . . which could use pre-merged CIS patches, but it would be extremely time consuming to make and would still require the user to make a Bashed Patch (if they want their other armor mods to play nice). I know for sure that I'd like to give users tutorials on how to use the CIS mods. That way, even if my mods can't be made more user-friendly, at least there'd be a step-by-step guide to using them.

In regards to making the CIS series more user-friendly, I thought of some ideas.

 

One, I could make an installer. The installer could have a checklist of sorts, and the checklist could tell the installer what version of any given CIS patch(s) to install. Maybe it could install pre-merged CIS patches, but there would be a big problem. . . while that would be easy with a few CIS Patches, the number of possible combinations for merged patches would get out-of-hand, and updates to the series would be painful. 

 

Two, I could trim some fat on the mods and make CISCore (and only CISCore) manage outfits. By having CIS patches only add Leveled Lists and enchanted gear, it should make merges go faster (with less room for error), files smaller, and hopefully make the CIS series easier to read in mod-editing software. I'm working on this idea now.

 

Three, I could upload tutorials and link pre-existing ones to mod-merging and patching. I know tutorials are out there, but it would be nice if they were made or linked to the CIS download pages. I'd definitely like to do this sometime, I don't think it'll be too hard to do.

 

Four, um. . . I could probably write a "README" file. I feel like I should have one.

 

Five, I could describe how CIS and other mods interact in more detail, that is, in laymen's terms. It might help the modder who knows a thing or two, and useful for the avid modder.

 

That's all that comes to mind for now. I'm not sure what else I can do. . . I'd be game for ideas though.

[DatWombat]

So I did some more testing with the Book of UUNP and developing a CIS patch. I originally started a CIS patch for the Book of UUNP to solve a problem I had in my previous Skyrim installation. . . 

 

Characters were spawning with multiple sets of armor.

 

But I can't seem to recreate that problem. It's not happening in-game, and after digging around in my .esps, there's nothing that suggests it will happen again. Perhaps it was a mod causing this problem? In any case, I don't need to make a CIS patch to solve a non-existent problem. But, I am seeing a small issue that could warrant a Book of UUNP CIS patch.

 

After creating a Bashed Patch, some Outfit Templates were populated with CIS Leveled Lists, as opposed to The Book of UUNP Leveled Lists. What this means is, after creating a Bashed Patch (using Wyre Bash), there are one or more NPCs in-game that would spawn with strictly items added/managed by CIS. While I aim for the CIS series to manage my loot, I want to see more Book of UUNP items in my game.

 

So to solve this, It would be as simple as making a CIS patch that adds Book of UUNP items and Leveled Lists to CIS Leveled lists, thereby making my CIS series and Book of UUNP play nicely.

 

If everything goes as planned, it'll save me a lot of time and effort. The Book of UUNP CIS currently contains modified Book of UUNP Leveled Lists and Outfit Templates. I originally to have users effectively splice the Book of UUNP with the Book of UUNP CIS, but (thankfully) I don't it will be necessary. Unfortunately, it does mean I've wasted a lot of time modding something that might not be needed, but at least I know what needs to be done now.

 

In regards to the series as a whole, I plan on releasing updates.

 

CISCore will be updated with Outfit Templates

Sexy Vanilla Armor CIS will have its Outfit Templates moved to CISCore

Girls Heavy Armor CIS will be updated for the newest version of Girls Heavy Armor

 

And (hopefully), the Book of UUNP CIS 1.0.0 will be just around the corner. After that, well um. . . I'm not sure what I'll do next. I'll probably look around for more stuff to put in my Skyrim, or consider taking a request or two. I have been looking at the Luxury Collection, but golly is that gonna be a tough project. . . it'll be Sexy Vanilla Armor all over again!