A question for creators

[angiebaby23]

So I've been poking around in Sims 4 Studio, just seeing all the neat things it can do even for a non-creator, and I noticed that there are no polygon counts for things like skins, makeup, and skin details.  Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me why? How much do things like makeup and especially skin overlays affect performance?  If I can put a hyper-realistic skin on a town full of sims without affecting performance, I'm going to be SO chuffed! 

[R-Lo]

8 minutes ago, angiebaby23 said:

So I've been poking around in Sims 4 Studio, just seeing all the neat things it can do even for a non-creator, and I noticed that there are no polygon counts for things like skins, makeup, and skin details.  Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me why? How much do things like makeup and especially skin overlays affect performance?  If I can put a hyper-realistic skin on a town full of sims without affecting performance, I'm going to be SO chuffed! 

 

I'm not a creator or knowledgeable in this respect but maybe it's because these are more aimed at dds files,

Most of this stuff is an image wrapped around a mesh,  

I've messed around with some things myself and found that sometimes a sharper image looks out of place against the tone of the game on skin or clothing so I try to dull it down or blur it a little,

Performance wise I'm not sure but I'm certain that polygon count is more towards mesh stuff,

Skins, details and make-up etc are just images in dds format

[angiebaby23]

10 minutes ago, R-Lo said:

 

I'm not a creator or knowledgeable in this respect but maybe it's because these are more aimed at dds files,

Most of this stuff is an image wrapped around a mesh,  

I've messed around with some things myself and found that sometimes a sharper image looks out of place against the tone of the game on skin or clothing so I try to dull it down or blur it a little,

Performance wise I'm not sure but I'm certain that polygon count is more towards mesh stuff,

Skins, details and make-up etc are just images in dds format

Wow, I'm pretty sure I actually understood that!  Thanks R-Lo, you are indeed one Cool Cat.  I appreciate the answer. 

[R-Lo]

Shucks! Thanks! ?

I'm also probably the the cat that curiosity didn't kill yet ? lol!

It wouldn't hurt to look into it further as far as performance etc is concerned but I'm happy that helps!

I kinda dumb it down for myself and learn as I go 

[angiebaby23]

1 hour ago, R-Lo said:

Shucks! Thanks! ?

I'm also probably the the cat that curiosity didn't kill yet ? lol!

It wouldn't hurt to look into it further as far as performance etc is concerned but I'm happy that helps!

I kinda dumb it down for myself and learn as I go 

Honestly I've Googled every possible combination of cc skins and computer performance I can think of and read so many posts in so many forums that even MENTION skins, and I can't find out a darn thing about how or if they affect performance.  I was so shocked that skins, makeup, tats etc don't have a poly count, but your post explained it perfectly.  It just seems too good to be true that that stuff wouldn't affect performance like other CC does.  I'm gonna keep searching, I've become obsessed with finding an answer haha.

[R-Lo]

50 minutes ago, angiebaby23 said:

Honestly I've Googled every possible combination of cc skins and computer performance I can think of and read so many posts in so many forums that even MENTION skins, and I can't find out a darn thing about how or if they affect performance.  I was so shocked that skins, makeup, tats etc don't have a poly count, but your post explained it perfectly.  It just seems too good to be true that that stuff wouldn't affect performance like other CC does.  I'm gonna keep searching, I've become obsessed with finding an answer haha.

 

I think the performance issue would be more down to the level of detail, skins etc may not be affected so much unless you're going for something fantasy, eg bio-mech or reptilian etc, something with a lot of intricate details, but that may skip over processing and be more on the monitor quality side of things,

 

These textures are just flat images in reality so they are more displayed than been built or processed,

If you're having some ideas then it wouldn't hurt to test it out, anything you try can be reversed if you're not happy with the results,

 

Usually for me, the high poly killer is some custom hairstyles, particularly alpha stuff,

I think the only real limit with skins etc is how it looks in contrast with the rest of the world

[crabb]

I've learned that things like the emission and normal map textures need to have a mesh in their package for them to work. They will only work on the mesh included in the package file.

 

Stuff like makeup and skin overlays that use the diffuse map don't need to have a mesh in the package. Specular textures (shiny reflections) don't need a mesh either.

[Cul]

Yea, and the reason why This is Them, Obscurus, etc mention the HQ mod is because the game cannot load better "images" without it, as there is a limit, so none of the skins look "the same" in game. A workaround is custom texture + custom skintone + custom skin detail ("overlay" without color), hah... Since it takes advantage of the game "textures" and not all the work is done by a 20mb overlay (some of that is swaths + thumbnails).

 

And then you would have Reshade on top.

[angiebaby23]

44 minutes ago, R-Lo said:

 

I think the performance issue would be more down to the level of detail, skins etc may not be affected so much unless you're going for something fantasy, eg bio-mech or reptilian etc, something with a lot of intricate details, but that may skip over processing and be more on the monitor quality side of things,

 

These textures are just flat images in reality so they are more displayed than been built or processed,

If you're having some ideas then it wouldn't hurt to test it out, anything you try can be reversed if you're not happy with the results,

 

Usually for me, the high poly killer is some custom hairstyles, particularly alpha stuff,

I think the only real limit with skins etc is how it looks in contrast with the rest of the world

It doesn't really bother me having realistic looking sims in a cartoony world, the effect is sort of trippy and I actually enjoy it.  I knew hairs were a big offender, but I prefer MM hair anyway.  What astonished me was how far off I was in judging whether something would be a high poly offender or not.  A beautiful pair of detailed earrings I was sure would be outrageous was 2080 polys, and a simple tee shirt was 9000!  I'm obviously not experienced enough to look-and-see if something will fry my GPU or not haha. 

 

I really do love my overlays and I'm going to use 'em.  As you said, it's not something that can't be undone if issues arise. 

[angiebaby23]

37 minutes ago, crabb said:

I've learned that things like the emission and normal map textures need to have a mesh in their package for them to work. They will only work on the mesh included in the package file.

 

Stuff like makeup and skin overlays that use the diffuse map don't need to have a mesh in the package. Specular textures (shiny reflections) don't need a mesh either.

 

35 minutes ago, Cul said:

Yea, and the reason why This is Them, Obscurus, etc mention the HQ mod is because the game cannot load better "images" without it, as there is a limit, so none of the skins look "the same" in game. A workaround is custom texture + custom skintone + custom skin detail ("overlay" without color), hah... Since it takes advantage of the game "textures" and not all the work is done by a 20mb overlay (some of that is swaths).

 

And then you would have Reshade on top.

Thank you for your responses guys.  That really is some interesting stuff.  Makes me want to keep reading tutorials and learning more!

[2cool4u_1]

As said polycount is only relevant to meshes. Pretend you are building something out of LEGO bricks, but each brick is a white triangle. When you make a 3D model out of all those triangles, the polycount refers to the number of triangles - more triangles for the computer to render means more performance drop. "Textures", such as skins, are like a sticker applied over the model. The larger the image, the more performance drops, similar to loading images in a web browser. In general, polycount has a much greater impact than textures, but it depends.

 

Oh yeah, a large triangle and a small triangle, is still a triangle. Size does not change the count.

[2cool4u_1]

I wanted to add: A larger texture file, does not equal a better looking one. That's dependent on the artist. Of course, with more detail, comes the possibility for a better image, similar to HD television vs Standard Definition.

Here's an example;

 

Both these images are the same size (pixel-wise), have the same amount of detail (pixel-wise), but the second image is actually a smaller file and cause less stress on your GPU, even though it looks better.

 

Here's an example for polycount;

A cube (Forgive my lack of artistic ability) has 6 sides. Each square is made of 2 triangles, so a cube has a polycount of 12. Why triangles? Because every shape can be made using a series of triangles, except for ones with curves (computers can't make curves). So that's what the computer does; builds it out of triangles.

 

[2cool4u_1]

4 hours ago, angiebaby23 said:

What astonished me was how far off I was in judging whether something would be a high poly offender or not.  A beautiful pair of detailed earrings I was sure would be outrageous was 2080 polys, and a simple tee shirt was 9000!  I'm obviously not experienced enough to look-and-see if something will fry my GPU or not haha.

In this case, the earrings had a smaller number of surfaces, but a nice texture. A T-shirt uses a lot more to approximate curves (for example on the arms, and around the torso).

 

 

I hope this helps a little bit. I'm not always the best at articulating myself.

[angiebaby23]

6 hours ago, 2cool4u_1 said:

In this case, the earrings had a smaller number of surfaces, but a nice texture. A T-shirt uses a lot more to approximate curves (for example on the arms, and around the torso).

 

 

I hope this helps a little bit. I'm not always the best at articulating myself.

Okay not to be overly dramatic, but I'm almost in tears now because you explained and answered all my questions (even the ones I hadn't asked) in a way I can absolutely understand.  Don't worry, you articulated just fine.  Thank you SO much!  I might love you a little now haha.  Seriously, thank you.  ❤️

 

[2cool4u_1]

8 hours ago, angiebaby23 said:

Okay not to be overly dramatic, but I'm almost in tears now because you explained and answered all my questions (even the ones I hadn't asked) in a way I can absolutely understand.  Don't worry, you articulated just fine.  Thank you SO much!  I might love you a little now haha.  Seriously, thank you.  ❤️

You're more than welcome. I have some advice regarding using skins on all your NPCs. Unfortunately, I don't have time today, as I have a family function to attend. I'll try to post it some time tomorrow. In the mean time, you could do me a favor. I'm writing a story (re-writing from my Sims 3 stories - was never finished) inspired by the Japanese anime "Tenshi na Konamaiki (Cheeky Angel)". It's about a guy (Jim) and girl (Alex) who make a wish from a genie. Instead of granting their wishes, the genie gender-swaps them. A main sub-plot involves the difficulties and embarrassments Jim and Alex face with their new bodies. I'm a little thin on ideas for this part. If you have any; Great, if not; don't sweat it. Here's the post:

 

 

[2cool4u_1]

For NPCs I recommend using Skin Overlays vs Skins. Overlays have transparency which means they'll use the sim's skin tone (they might tint it), whereas skins use their own color which means you'll get black sims who look white, white sims who look grey, and so on. Meaning, skin tone wise, their offspring and siblings will not look related them.

 

How the game operates (in case you are unaware): When generating an item, such as shoes, the game creates a "lottery". Let's say you have 4 shoes;
Shoes A-- 3 swatches, IS marked for random
Shoes B-- 6 swatches, IS marked for random
Shoes C-- 3 swatches, is NOT marked for random
Shoes D-- 1 swatch, IS marked for random

 

(C) is NOT marked for random and is therefore not included in the lottery. The game then takes all the remaining swatches and puts them in. Each swatch has an equal chance of being chosen. There are 10 swatches in the lottery, so (A) has a 30% chance of being chosen, (B) 60%, (D) 10%.

 

If you want all your NPCs to use skin overlays, choose a slot in "Skin Details", such as "Mouth Crease", and assign all overlays to this slot while moving anything else in this slot to another one (or make it not random).

 

This is CAS Tools. You can use S4 Studio if you're more comfortable with it. I'm showing CAS Tools because it fits in one screen cap. Note: I did not edit this skin yet.

 

1] Make sure all your skins / overlays are set for the same slot.

2] Make sure they are allowed for "Live Random", which refers to can they be used for game-generated NPCs.

3] Show in CAS UI refers to whether you can see it in CAS, or if it is hidden.

4] I like to allow both frames to use skins, but that's you're choice.

5] Items with a higher Sort Layer number will be placed on top of those with lower ones. (ie. a skin with a number of 9000 will go on top of lipstick with a number of 3000, thereby covering it.) Convention seems to be 1000 or 1100 for skins, but since nothing goes below a skin, you can put it lower.

6] If you like to group your skins together in CAS (I do), use an obscure number like 5301 for skin #1, 5302 for #2, etc.

[angiebaby23]

@2cool4u_1  Just to be sure I understand:  Just like generated Sims are assigned a (God-awful) outfit, doing this will also always assign them a random overlay from the ones I enable?  This is exciting!  I've been using both overlays and full coverage skins about equally, but it's no problem to switch to just using overlays so relatives will be cohesive.  I'm really pumped about this!  It never occurred to me that there was a way to make created sims have an overlay automatically, I figured I'd just have to take each one into CAS and do it myself.  Sweet!  Thanks a bunch, I appreciate this so much! 

[2cool4u_1]

17 hours ago, angiebaby23 said:

@2cool4u_1  Just to be sure I understand:  Just like generated Sims are assigned a (God-awful) outfit, doing this will also always assign them a random overlay from the ones I enable?  This is exciting!  I've been using both overlays and full coverage skins about equally, but it's no problem to switch to just using overlays so relatives will be cohesive.  I'm really pumped about this!  It never occurred to me that there was a way to make created sims have an overlay automatically, I figured I'd just have to take each one into CAS and do it myself.  Sweet!  Thanks a bunch, I appreciate this so much! 

That's correct, assuming there's nothing else enabled for random in that slot, otherwise that other thing might be chosen instead. I know how you feel; it really made my day when I figured this out. I've been using overlays for about 2 ~ 2.5 years and am just starting to switch back to Maxis-styled sims.

 

I almost forgot to mention, regarding stuff that is chosen for random: that information applies to clothing and skin details. Make-up, hats and accessories (head & body) are only chosen sometimes --I don't know the percentages. Tattoos are never chosen.