Dark, but nicely said.

Dark, but nicely said.

I disagree. 'cause people willing to kick the others, beat the others, fuck the others and then shoot them in the head are in fact just as much or more guilty than the ones they are trying to punish.

 

There is a saying which says : « The end does not justifies the means ».

Seeing something wrong doesn't allows doing something wrong in return. Otherwise, your just extend the injustice chain and feed the revenge cycle. That why the laws were created in the first place, even thought their application is far from what it should be.

 

Dark, but nicely said.

I disagree. 'cause people willing to kick the others, beat the others, fuck the others and then shoot them in the head are in fact just as much or more guilty than the ones they are trying to punish.

 

There is a saying which says : « The end does not justifies the means ».

Seeing something wrong doesn't allows doing something wrong in return. Otherwise, your just extend the injustice chain and feed the revenge cycle. That why the laws were created in the first place, even thought their application is far from what it should be.

 

 

You misunderstood me again is it in your genes to misunderstand me ?

I complimented the poetry, writing style, the way is made; not the message.

 

Dark, but nicely said.

I disagree. 'cause people willing to kick the others, beat the others, fuck the others and then shoot them in the head are in fact just as much or more guilty than the ones they are trying to punish.

 

There is a saying which says : « The end does not justifies the means ».

Seeing something wrong doesn't allows doing something wrong in return. Otherwise, your just extend the injustice chain and feed the revenge cycle. That why the laws were created in the first place, even thought their application is far from what it should be.

 

 

I agree that we disagree. Justice has to be served to the wicked. They harvest what they sow.

 

« The end does not justifies the means ».

 Wrong. When the system fails because it is 99% blind, avenge take the place of justice. Same is when someone does good. The reward for doing good is natural result.

I complimented the poetry, writing style, the way is made; not the message.

You misunderstood me again is it in your genes to misunderstand me ?

Then I'm glad I misunderstood, and glad my misunderstanding made you clarify your position. 'cause it was dark, you see ?

 

Wrong. When the system fails because it is 99% blind, avenge take the place of justice. Same is when someone does good. The reward for doing good is natural result.

There are systems that work better/worse than others, so I give you that it's probably not adequate to make an assertion ignoring the circumstances.

 

Yet, what I maintain, is that if you commit an injustice, in order to avenge another injustice ; then you are guilty of injustice as well.

 

 

Let's take an example : you live in Japan, and you discover your step-sister has been murdered. You knew from her that she had serious problems with her ex-boyfriend, but regular policemen have no evidence towards him, so he gets acquitted by the judges. You decide to make justice yourself, and kill him in return. You will be charged for murder; and would have become the very thing you loathed : a murderer.

 

One can still argue you had reasons to do it. Yet it's easy to give reasons to suggestible people. And to turn lost youngsters into terrorists. No matter the reason they believe as being just themselves at the moment ; they just end up being murderers, and that's all. Ever wondered in what state of mind are the terrorists who assault jewish schools full of children ? Ever wondered if they too, had certitudes ? :/

 

Maybe time would have changed their visions of things though ; but one can still make mistakes at one given moment. That is one of the reasons why then « ends »  should not be used to justify unjustified means, specially extreme and fatal ones. As collective judgment is very weak, and individual judgment often even weaker.

 

An individual just hasn't the right to decide of life or death over his sibling. It's already bad enough that in some countries, a court of individuals can, just to discover years later they executed an innocent. 

 

And one more thing : dealing death in judgment isn't the same thing than accidentally killing while defending yourself, or while defending a defenseless person from an assault. This is legitimate defense without the intend to kill ; it is different from postponed judgment.

 

 

 

Let's quote Gandalf the Grey  ( ) as a conclusion :

 

« Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. »

 

 

 

Again, my friend, your arguments "holds the water" from your point of view. I completely agree with Reitanna. An analogy: When it's winter in Europe, it's is summer in Australia. You are smart and you know what I want to say.    Just to make clear. If one day I'll have a daughter and if, god forbid, somebody rape her, I will not kill the rapist, I will cut off his cock and feed him with it and then I will make him permanent invalid braking his every bone, blind him and will cut his tongue off. He'll not be able to move, see and to talk. Yes, that's how cruel I am when it comes to my loved ones..

 

Again, my friend, your arguments "holds the water" from your point of view. I completely agree with Reitanna. An analogy: When it's winter in Europe, it's is summer in Australia. You are smart and you know what I want to say. Just to make clear. If one day I'll have a daughter and if, god forbid, somebody rape her, I will not kill the rapist, I will cut off his cock and feed him with it and then I will make him permanent invalid braking his every bone, blind him and will cut his tongue off.

Well, if you break his every bone and cut off his tongue, I can't warranty that this wont just outright kill him.

 

Anyway, we have a disagreement.. but you didn't challenge my arguments. Yet, I respect your position.

 

Again, my friend, your arguments "holds the water" from your point of view. I completely agree with Reitanna. An analogy: When it's winter in Europe, it's is summer in Australia. You are smart and you know what I want to say. Just to make clear. If one day I'll have a daughter and if, god forbid, somebody rape her, I will not kill the rapist, I will cut off his cock and feed him with it and then I will make him permanent invalid braking his every bone, blind him and will cut his tongue off.

Well, if you break his every bone and cut off his tongue, I can't warranty that this wont just outright kill him.

 

Anyway, we have a disagreement.. but you didn't challenge my arguments. Yet, I respect your position.

 

 

My good friend .... I always admire your maturity. Not many people are capable to disagree and yet still show respect to the person they are disagree with.

I will be very open to you: although I'm not a person who seeks revenge  I support my Prince's attitude. I wish I can be different, but I think I can't. When he was heavily beaten by my ex and his pals, all I wanted was to make them suffer badly and I plead Antonio and the guys to do it. I don't know what will I do and how will I react if it happen what my Prince said about our daughter. I think I will be outrageous and maybe I will wish him dead, and yet who knows, maybe I will be able to forgive him. Sometimes, I caught myself doing opposite from I thought I would do. I just hope that such things will not happen. For me, my Prince and Ivy, our parents and our (future) children are most valuable persons in the whole world and I will die for them.

 

Justice can be interpreted in many ways and each of us seeing it differently. But, you are saying rightly; System is imperfect and we are obligated to obey it and follow its rules. If not, there might be great chaos because everyone is "practicing" own interpretation of the justice. Anyhow, I also understand my Prince. Please, believe me when i say that he strongly follows his principles. When we started dating, he was overcharged by the phone company who refused his complain, he refused to pay the bill. He said he'd rather go to the jail then paid that bill. And he would because he is stubborn and he is very principal. I saved him from not going to jail because I paid his bill. He was angry at me for I "ruined" the "justice". When he screws up he says (literal translation but you will understand what he meant to say): "If I shit the shit then I have to eat it. If you shit your shit, you'll eat it." That's his way of interpreting the justice. Of course, he showed numerous times that he is capable and willing to forgive (Tina is the best example), but there are certain things that are unforgivable for him and we all have to suffer consequences of our misdoings. He is very loyal to this principles even when the justice has to be done on him.

 

That's why people like you and Jayomms and others are needed to balance things. The world is full of "+" and "-" and both of them need to be in balance.

Justice can be interpreted in many ways and each of us seeing it differently. But, you are saying rightly; System is imperfect and we are obligated to obey it and follow its rules. If not, there might be great chaos because everyone is "practicing" own interpretation of the justice. Anyhow, I also understand my Prince. Please, believe me when i say that he strongly follows his principles.

The problem of every one practicing his own interpretation of justice is the key indeed, you say it better than I could. Yet circumstances and situations should not be judged to straighly, and I understand perfectly your support to Prince position.

 

Anyway, thanks for your kind words. They could be implying that I've lessened some of my greatest defects, so your words touch me. But you deserve the same praise, as calmly concluding on a disagreement is only possible if the opposite side is mature as well.

justice in the modern world is so corrupt, so backward, that good people end up getting punished while bad people go free. I 100% believe that bad people need to be punished with whatever is just as bad as the crime they committed. if it were up to me, people wouldn't get away with shit. I want the human race to end, but since it won't happen in my lifetime, I can't help but wish for a cleansing. you do bad, you get punished, you do good, you get rewarded. THAT'S how it should be. MJK's lyrics are more than just words, they have purpose and meaning, and most of all, they reflect the way we should all feel. it's funny that I found music to experience that shares the same views I have before I knew of them, and it makes me feel less alone, because sometimes I feel like I'm the only one in the world with morals. I know I'm not, but it feels that way. "two wrongs don't make a right," they say. yes it does. because people need to learn that there are consequences for their actions, and those consequences must be dealt to those who brought them on. I'm in support of the death penalty, but unfortunately, our justice system is such bullshit, innocent people are sent to death row. it's all a big, convoluted circle with no end unless someone comes in and breaks it, forcing it to be a straight line with a beginning and an end. but a majority of the population is composed of complete idiots. we are a toxic species, we will never change, only get worse. sometimes I wish I were insane so that I could escape into the world I created, but the cons still outweigh the pros, just as they do with my current conditions. most of all, I wish I ruled the world. unrealistic dreams are unrealistic.

justice in the modern world is so corrupt, so backward, that good people end up getting punished while bad people go free. I 100% believe that bad people need to be punished with whatever is just as bad as the crime they committed. if it were up to me, people wouldn't get away with shit. I want the human race to end, but since it won't happen in my lifetime, I can't help but wish for a cleansing. you do bad, you get punished, you do good, you get rewarded. THAT'S how it should be. MJK's lyrics are more than just words, they have purpose and meaning, and most of all, they reflect the way we should all feel. it's funny that I found music to experience that shares the same views I have before I knew of them, and it makes me feel less alone, because sometimes I feel like I'm the only one in the world with morals. I know I'm not, but it feels that way. "two wrongs don't make a right," they say. yes it does. because people need to learn that there are consequences for their actions, and those consequences must be dealt to those who brought them on. I'm in support of the death penalty, but unfortunately, our justice system is such bullshit, innocent people are sent to death row. it's all a big, convoluted circle with no end unless someone comes in and breaks it, forcing it to be a straight line with a beginning and an end. but a majority of the population is composed of complete idiots. we are a toxic species, we will never change, only get worse. sometimes I wish I were insane so that I could escape into the world I created, but the cons still outweigh the pros, just as they do with my current conditions. most of all, I wish I ruled the world. unrealistic dreams are unrealistic.

 

Exactly. I also support death penalty which is forbidden in my country. Instead of that they feeding them, warming their cells, enjoying in life while many good people lives on the street and digging through the trash trying to find something to eat. I disagree with my wife, Eva about following the "imperfect System". Since we can't change the System, the good people should take justice in own hands and get rid od the scum, permanently. Rapists gets only five years of serving in jail. What about the girl they ruined her life for eternity?! No, if I'm asked, he will not end up in the jail . I will cut of his balls and send him to the working camp on minimum food and low living conditions. Every single rapist and bully will be heavily punished.

I want the human race to end, but since it won't happen in my lifetime, I can't help but wish for a cleansing. (...)

(...) a majority of the population is composed of complete idiots.

Those two reasons are precisely why people shouldn't be in charge of doing justice for themselves :

— They aren't necessarily good willed

— They aren't necessarily wise nor educated

 

I DO NOT want the human race to end. Therefore, I think letting people sometimes lacking competence and sometimes even lacking tolerance apply justice upon others might not be the be way to go.

 

we are a toxic species, we will never change

Never is a very long time. You can't change your sibling, but you can change yourself.

 

I want the human race to end, but since it won't happen in my lifetime, I can't help but wish for a cleansing. (...)

(...) a majority of the population is composed of complete idiots.

Those two reasons are precisely why people shouldn't be in charge of doing justice for themselves :

— They aren't necessarily good willed

— They aren't necessarily wise nor educated

 

I DO NOT want the human race to end. Therefore, I think letting people sometimes lacking competence and sometimes even lacking tolerance apply justice upon others might not be the be way to go.

 

we are a toxic species, we will never change

Never is a very long time. You can't change your sibling, but you can change yourself.

 

the human race is an invasive species that has ruined the lives that belong here, and ruined the lives of ourselves. you are too optimistic, and it's unfortunate. the only cure for this suffering planet is human extinction. we do nothing good for anything, we torture each other and the ones who deserve life, we are evil. "emotions are a gift given to us by our animal ancestors. cruelty is a gift we have given ourselves." from the moment we left the circle of life, we've done nothing but harm. if our species continues to exist, we will move to the next planet and destroy that one too. then the next one, and the next one, until we have left a path of destruction within the universe. there are things I wish I could change about myself, but unfortunately they are out of my control thanks to the evils of humanity. one person changing cannot fix society. actually, I have changed a lot from when I used to be a sheep. I was able to free myself of the blindfold we are born with, and now I see the world. I suggest you remove your blindfold, my friend. you will not be happy with what you see, but it's better than living in a fantasy world and contributing to the problem. though, I get the sense that you are at least domesticated, which is good. whether or not they are blind, domesticated humans have learned compassion and learned how to suppress our natural evil instincts. it's a shame that it's so rare, maybe society wouldn't be such trash. but we should have never came to be in the first place. I feel sorry for people who support our species because it means that they either don't realize how harmful we are, or they don't care. most of all, I feel sorry for everyone who deserves to live on this planet. they did nothing wrong, they didn't deserve our interference.

I hope we never move to other planet and start the colony unless human race radically change.

P.S. triloque is number 1 person on this forum and although I disagree with him in some areas, the world be better place if being inhabited by Billions of people like him.

the human race is an invasive species that has ruined the lives that belong here, and ruined the lives of ourselves. you are too optimistic, and it's unfortunate. the only cure for this suffering planet is human extinction. we do nothing good for anything, we torture each other and the ones who deserve life

Who, "we" ? Have you never selflessly earned a « thank you » from your sibling ? Have you never seen the joy in the eyes of an animal just happy to share a moment with a being from another specie ? Seen the beauty of the world ?

 

In my opinion, your vision is too black and white, Reitanna, too manicheist. Extreme points of view lead to extreme conclusions, and sometimes to extreme acts.

 

 

Besides.. Humanity virus ?

 

we are evil. "emotions are a gift given to us by our animal ancestors. cruelty is a gift we have given ourselves." from the moment we left the circle of life

Your vision seem partial to me. Cruelty isn't the property of men, otherwise you've never seen a cat catch a bird purely by game and then don't even eat it. A child could do the same to an insect. An alligator to a gazelle. Did you know that predators such as sharks sometimes don't even bother eating entirely their preys, and just « taste » them before leaving them to death ? That some mammals do abandon those of their children they judge to frail to survive ? Nature is cruel my friend, the only thing is that she does not worry about it.

 

What seems to make us peculiar is that our intelligence allows us to foresee abstract things, such as our death as individual. Allowing us to think about good and evil. About purpose. About choice.

 

I don't think that the purpose of human lives is to erase themselves. That would be stupid, both from a natural point of view, and from a societal one. We can chose to pursue wisdom if we deem it good.

 

 

I used to be a sheep. I was able to free myself of the blindfold we are born with, and now I see the world. I suggest you remove your blindfold, my friend. you will not be happy with what you see, but it's better than living in a fantasy world and contributing to the problem. though, I get the sense that you are at least domesticated, which is good. whether or not they are blind, domesticated humans have learned compassion and learned how to suppress our natural evil instincts. it's a shame that it's so rare, maybe society wouldn't be such trash.

There is a contradiction in what you're saying :

— In your first phrases you say that nature, the circle of life should be respected ; implying that natural ways are good and should be our purpose.

— In your last words you're saying that a civilized behavior can allow to overcome cruel evil natural instincts ; implying that natural ways are evil and should be fought.

 

That's a contradiction.

 

I have thought about the subject. In my opinion, nature isn't nor good, nor evil. Nature isn't a purpose. Nature is just the way of the fittest, nothing more, nothing less. Instinct is merely a consequence of it, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Good or evil is more likely a product of thinking. Implying an intelligence able of abstraction, and able of choice. Maybe... just maybe, such intelligence was given to us to try to do the right choices. Destruction, whether it being of nature or of humanity, isn't. Respecting nature and human lives could be a better one.

 

You're also saying that one individual getting civilized won't change a thing. I disagree. What's the ocean, but an absurd quantity of individual drops of water ? What's the desert, but billions of grain of sands ? What's e-world success, but thousands of individual views ? What's a head of state, but thousands of individual vote bulletins ?

Individuals do have a power. Yet changing, improving as an individual isn't the easiest way by far... And requires a choice.

 

 

 

And thus we have the conclusion of the debate of the freed Agent Smith vs Neo, Destruction vs Choice.

 

Anyway thanks for your appreciation Reitanna, and thanks for allowing this little debate. It might not convince you on the spot, but it allowed me to formalize my thinking, and maybe could allow others to formalize or maybe change theirs, with time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope we never move to other planet and start the colony unless human race radically change.

P.S. triloque is number 1 person on this forum and although I disagree with him in some areas, the world be better place if being inhabited by Billions of people like him.

Certainly not ! The world would be quite a boring place in that case, we would need more people like your trio to make it a fun one.

Certainly not ! The world would be quite a boring place in that case, we would need more people like your trio to make it a fun one.

 

Hahahaha - this is our new disagreement. I kind started to enjoy in them  

 

the human race is an invasive species that has ruined the lives that belong here, and ruined the lives of ourselves. you are too optimistic, and it's unfortunate. the only cure for this suffering planet is human extinction. we do nothing good for anything, we torture each other and the ones who deserve life

Who, "we" ? Have you never selflessly earned a « thank you » from your sibling ? Have you never seen the joy in the eyes of an animal just happy to share a moment with a being from another specie ? Seen the beauty of the world ?

 

In my opinion, your vision is too black and white, Reitanna, too manicheist. Extreme points of view lead to extreme conclusions, and sometimes to extreme acts.

 

 

Besides.. Humanity virus ?

 

we are evil. "emotions are a gift given to us by our animal ancestors. cruelty is a gift we have given ourselves." from the moment we left the circle of life

Your vision seem partial to me. Cruelty isn't the property of men, otherwise you've never seen a cat catch a bird purely by game and then don't even eat it. A child could do the same to an insect. An alligator to a gazelle. Did you know that predators such as sharks sometimes don't even bother eating entirely their preys, and just « taste » them before leaving them to death ? That some mammals do abandon those of their children they judge to frail to survive ? Nature is cruel my friend, the only thing is that she does not worry about it.

 

What seems to make us peculiar is that our intelligence allows us to foresee abstract things, such as our death as individual. Allowing us to think about good and evil. About purpose. About choice.

 

I don't think that the purpose of human lives is to erase themselves. That would be stupid, both from a natural point of view, and from a societal one. We can chose to pursue wisdom if we deem it good.

 

 

I used to be a sheep. I was able to free myself of the blindfold we are born with, and now I see the world. I suggest you remove your blindfold, my friend. you will not be happy with what you see, but it's better than living in a fantasy world and contributing to the problem. though, I get the sense that you are at least domesticated, which is good. whether or not they are blind, domesticated humans have learned compassion and learned how to suppress our natural evil instincts. it's a shame that it's so rare, maybe society wouldn't be such trash.

There is a contradiction in what you're saying :

— In your first phrases you say that nature, the circle of life should be respected ; implying that natural ways are good and should be our purpose.

— In your last words you're saying that a civilized behavior can allow to overcome cruel evil natural instincts ; implying that natural ways are evil and should be fought.

 

That's a contradiction.

 

I have thought about the subject. In my opinion, nature isn't nor good, nor evil. Nature isn't a purpose. Nature is just the way of the fittest, nothing more, nothing less. Instinct is merely a consequence of it, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Good or evil is more likely a product of thinking. Implying an intelligence able of abstraction, and able of choice. Maybe... just maybe, such intelligence was given to us to try to do the right choices. Destruction, whether it being of nature or of humanity, isn't. Respecting nature and human lives could be a better one.

 

You're also saying that one individual getting civilized won't change a thing. I disagree. What's the ocean, but an absurd quantity of individual drops of water ? What's the desert, but billions of grain of sands ? What's e-world success, but thousands of individual views ? What's a head of state, but thousands of individual vote bulletins ?

Individuals do have a power. Yet changing, improving as an individual isn't the easiest way by far... And requires a choice.

 

 

 

And thus we have the conclusion of the debate of the freed Agent Smith vs Neo, Destruction vs Choice.

 

Anyway thanks for your appreciation Reitanna, and thanks for allowing this little debate. It might not convince you on the spot, but it allowed me to formalize my thinking, and maybe could allow others to formalize or maybe change theirs, with time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope we never move to other planet and start the colony unless human race radically change.

P.S. triloque is number 1 person on this forum and although I disagree with him in some areas, the world be better place if being inhabited by Billions of people like him.

Certainly not ! The world would be quite a boring place in that case, we would need more people like your trio to make it a fun one.

 

 

 

ugh, there is no saving you. you let everything I said go over your head, just like the blind often do. I SPECIFICALLY said humans are invasive to those who were meant to be here. obviously I was talking about all of the other species that dwell on our planet. I myself get along much better with other animals than my own species. some call it "animal sense," it means you have a strong connection to other species, and my boyfriend has it too, though he enjoys the company of animals and humans he knows equally. granted, I would not be able to go without human contact, because humans are social, just like rats, guinea pigs, ferrets, and many others, and it's cruel to keep just one of those domesticated species in the same habitat in your home. but my pets are not simply pets, they are my children, they are individuals, and they are somebody. but I often lose my patience with overly optimistic people who see what they want to see, instead of what is actually out there. I will say the same three words I tell any blinded person, and then I am finished conversing with you.

 

PEOPLE RAPE BABIES.

"People" do way worse than that, they kill babies before birth. "People" who do not see the value of life in particular. So far, you haven't given me an answer nor to my arguments, nor to the inconsistencies of your vision Reitanna. So do not be too earnest in calling blind the others.

 

Anyway I understand that there must be suffering behind your vision of the world. So while unconcluded, it's indeed probably best we consider this conversation finished.