Jump to content

Glass Ceiling


Lupine00

7,551 views

I had this idea for a Glass Ceiling feature in SexLab Survival. It was sort of a joke.

Then I thought about it some more, it could be an interesting sort of mod after all.

 

See my original post on SexLab Survival Glass Ceiling

 

After thinking about it a bit more, I could see how this could work more globally, as a complete Skyrim overhaul (with fairly low impact) that doesn't require an obscene amount of code. It would involve a follower who acts as a scarcity mechanism without otherwise disrupting gameplay.

 

 

It could begin when you reach Riverwood, in the early stages of the main-quest. When you try to leave town, a follower attaches himself to you.

 

His initial goal is to hit on you for sex. He suggests you join him in the inn.

If you do, he'll get you drunk and force sex, but that's just always something he wants to try - not a one-off behaviour, but his default.

 

Whether you do that or not, this guy will never leave you. He's your compulsory follower for the rest of the game.

If you use a follower mod, you can have other followers, but you can't get rid of him.

 

The funny thing is, he often claims you are following him.

 

 

From thereon, any dialog that relates to a player achievement of any worth is redirected at him, and there are subtle, pervasive dialog changes elsewhere.

Occasionally, when it comes to quest rewards, there are changes there too, so a lot of the time, you don't get them. He does.

And if you do what he wants, he lets you have them, like he's doing you a favour.

 

e.g.

When you show up in Dragonsreach with news of the dragon, the Jarl initially appears to address you as normal...

But no...

It's not you, he's talking to the MAN in the room.

 

And when you try to speak, your follower talks over you and delivers the news about the dragon.

While you can pick the topics you want to raise normally, the responses all indicate that you got ignored and the Jarl responds to your follower instead.

 

This is pretty much the template for all major events after this - except the Greybeards and Parthurnax, and any other place that you actually have to be the real dragonborn to progress. The rest of the time, everyone ludicrously attributes all your work to the follower; even when it's quite a stretch.

 

When you kill the first dragon, the guards compliment your follower on his achievements.

They then talk about him swallowing the dragon's soul (even though it was YOU). Naturally he takes credit for it.

You are then denied the chance to demonstrate shouting. He says he won't do it because his shout would be so dangerous.

 

On the way to see the Greybeards, when you get part way up the steps, the follower says he can't be bothered walking up there and is going back to the tavern. He will show up again when you descend. Other than that, he always seems to be there to steal the credit and reward for everything you do.

 

If you ever use your shout in a town, or on an NPC, there is a global behaviour where they demand you shut up or be gagged.

They talk to the follower...

"Keep your girl quiet or I'll see her gagged." etc.

"Don't worry, she can get really noisy. Sometimes, you have to show them who's boss."

He will demand you gag yourself, but he won't force gag you. But if you don't obey, there will be consequences. See below.

 

His basic game-play control mechanics are "taking your stuff" and controlling your gold and the return of items he took.

This is how the mod work in almost any situation he wants to compel you do do something: do as he says, or next time you ask for gold he won't give you any.

Each refusal locks you out of your gold for longer.

However, he cannot force you to wear anything, he can only request and then punish.

Nor will he force sex, he can only demand and get angry.

 

 

How does he get your gold and items?


He consumes all cash quest rewards (but not items), as a global behaviour.

If you sleep, he takes all your money.

If you sleep, he will steal all small portable valuables, like books, scrolls, gems and jewellery.

He takes almost anything useful or valuable that you put in a chest.

hen you gain gold in shops, all male vendors give the cash straight to him. Only women will give it to you. (Implementation-wise, the gold just gets moved after the fact, but it should be fast enough).

He takes heavy items from your inventory. e.g. He will say things like "Let me carry that heavy stuff for you." Then he grabs armor-loot or weapons out of your inventory. You will never see them again. (This is not all bad, as you don't have to worry about carry capacity, but you only get a small percentage return on the value).

He won't take equipped armor, except when you sleep, in which case he will.

He won't take bikini armor.

He will not take quest items.

His ability to rob is constrained. He can't take items below a certain weight, unless you sleep, and he can't take gold unless you sleep.

In some cases he may demand you give him gold or valuable items you are carrying. If you don't he'll refuse to release gold and rob you more aggressively later.

 

You can ask him for money if you need it but he's averse to letting you have much at once.

Buying houses requires a special mechanic where he "saves" the money for you, because clearly you couldn't do that yourself.

 

If you don't do things he wants, you aren't allowed access to your gold.

He will sometimes give you a jewellery item back as a 'present' if you are compliant for a while, let him have sex, etc.

He will add things to chests in some cases: bondage items, lingerie, cooking pots, slooty clothes and high heels.

By design, it's possible to work around him - to some extent - if you're careful.
 

His punishment is limited to withholding return of gold or items. This doesn't mean he won't threaten other things, but he can't follow through.

 

Except ... sometimes he makes additional demands before he will hand your money back.

He hates it if you buy spell books, and will deny your money if he thinks you might do that (near a spell vendor).

He doesn't like you buying training. He will deny your money if he thinks you might do that too (near a vanilla training vendor).

He doesn't like you buying weapons or armor. He will deny your money if he thinks you might (near a smith).

In practice, this just means you have to take him other places to get the money, or already have it.

In some cases he may demand you wear a chastity belt - for your safety - and he won't release any gold if you refuse - "Because you're going to be robbed by rapists anyway, stupid girl."

 

If you try to use a crafting station, after a few seconds he will grab your ass, knocking you out of the station. If you have Spank that Ass, he can use that too.

 

He always tries to force sex in inns and player homes. You can refuse in most cases. Sometimes he will sleep-rape you. Other times he tries to get you drunk.


He, and other male NPCs refer to you, in his presence as "your girl" or "the girl", or "your slut" they never use your name or treat you as a person. Of course, in game logic they are speaking to you, but the altered words give the impression they talk past you and address him all the time.

 

He becomes the archmage, guildmaster or harbinger for the major guild quests.

For all the major guild quests, you are cheated at the very end - like my examples in the link, except that he gets the rewards instead of the pre-existing vanilla NPC.

 

He never talks to Parthurnax or the Greybeards, but Delphine and the other blades treat him as the dragonborn, not you. If this sounds farcical, it's supposed to be.

 

He will be the character addressed in civil war. NPCs will commonly tell you to be quiet while the men are speaking. This is much worse and more frequent if you pick the Stormcloaks. You basically can't talk to Stormcloaks at all, unless its to progress a quest stage.

 

 

Most female NPCs behave normally towards you. He always comments on this afterwards, with lines like:

"Please don't waste so much time gossiping with your friends. We have important things to do."

"Enough girl talk. We need to save the world."

"Have you finished discussing your outfits now? I need to get that elder scroll."

"(Yawn). I was thinking, you look better in heels." etc

 

Irileth, Mjoll, Uthgerd, and other stoic female NPCs will act like men in this regard, and will not respect you.

 

 

While this follower character is essentially an idiot, he's not a complete dummy.

He uses all the tricks he knows to keep you under his control: gaslighting, lies, bullying, isolation, financial control.

It's up to you how you respond.

 

Later in the main quest, he will suggest you marry him. If you let him push this through, things get worse.

You should try to avoid it, but as you progress the main quest, he will keep making it harder to avoid.

At some point, it may seem easier to give in. In some ways it might be, as if you refuse several of his proposals he will become reluctant to release sufficient money for living.

At the tail end of this, if you go to Riften, he will arrange a marriage without your consent and bribe Maven so she gets the guards and thieves guild to conspire to force you to the ceremony. The priest ignores anything you say and the marriage goes ahead.

 

Once you are married, he will raise his annoyance level overall:

Behaviours he could previously only do during sleep become available to him in any town as demands rather than an action that just happens (so you can still refuse).

If you refuse, he calls the guard, and you can go to prison, pay the fine, or fight them.

He will demand you give him gold and valuable items you are carrying. If you refuse in town, again he'll use the law against you.

Women aren't allowed to own possessions, they are possessions - not slaves of course, but they still belong to their husband or father.

He may make decisions on what you must wear (slutty clothes of course). If you don't wear what he wants he may demand your other clothes, and will deny money.

He will demand, rather than ask for sex, and if he doesn't get it, see above.

It will be harder to get cash out of him. 

He may refuse to return items.

He will also complain about men looking at you, starts brawls with male NPCs and generally make himself a nuisance.

The chastity belt will become a default request.

Plugs may be requested as a punishment.

He doesn't ever enslave you. It's more subtle than that. He controls, but it's absolutely not a slavery mod. But it is a scarcity and gold control mod. You can loot as much as you like, but good luck spending the money. However, you may get gagged for shouting in towns etc.

 

 

It's more about flavour...

 

Some sorts of things he might say:


When you read a book:

"I know you think that makes you look clever honey, but we both know you don't understand that stuff."

"Did you know you squint when you're reading? It doesn't look attractive."

"Do they actually teach women to read where you come from? Nah... You're faking it right?"
 

He will comment when you eat:

"Do you have to eat so much? You'll get fat."

 

When you drink:

"Ale? Come on girl, have some of this alto wine, ale is for men."

"Water? Don't drink that filthy stuff, you'll get sick."

 

When you wake up:

"By all the gods, you look terrible. Can't you do something with your hair?"

 

When you win a fight:

"You need to improve your technique. You almost got us killed there girl."

 

When you sell things:

"I could have got a better price for that. What were you thinking?"

 

When you buy things:

"Your spending never stops. I think I need to set a budget for you."

 

When you finish a quest:

"At last, that's over. Did you drag that out to spite me? I swear, without me, you'd never finish anything."

 

When you learn a new shout:

"Are you done staring at the wall now? I swear, you just drift off sometimes. Come back down to Skyrim girl."

 

When you pray:

"Women... Always praying. Don't go all pious on me."

 

If you have rape mods, he will comment if you are raped:

"What are you crying for? You asked for that. Honestly, I'm disgusted by the way you slut around sometimes."

"If you'd been wearing your belt like I told you, this wouldn't have happened. A woman needs to be careful in Skyrim."

"Slut around like that again and I'll give you a beating." (He never does give you a beating, but he will push the belt 'solution'. )

(And with the belt, you can guess who has the only key. Clue. It's not you. That wouldn't be "safe".)

 

If you get pregnant - at least for some pregnancy mod or other:

"Pregnancy suits you."

"Gods, it's a struggle to keep my hands off those tits of yours."

"It would be better if I could leave you at home, but I know you're afraid to be left by yourself. Probably not safe alone anyway."

"That baby better be mine girl. You know what I'm saying?"

 

If you give birth - he takes the baby (or soul gems):

"At least you're good for something. These should fetch a pretty penny." (soul gems)

"You're an unfit mother. I'll give the kid to my sister to look after. Behave yourself if you ever want to see it again."

 

If you have a mod that handles female cycle:

"Your time again sweetroll? No wonder you're being so unreasonable."

"If you were a decent woman, you'd be pregnant, not bleeding."

 

 

I'll probably never write this mod. But I probably should.

28 Comments


Recommended Comments



I think I like the original implementation better to be honest.  I think a dedicated follower doesn't sell the same story as a world where society belittles the PC's achievement.

 

A follower that steals your rewards draws attention to the follower, it's about him, not you, and not Skyrim.  I don't think this will feel like a glass ceiling as much as having a parasite.  I think the players mindset is going to quickly be pushed towards "how do I get rid of this guy" rather than "This is how things are, I better make the best of it"

 

Even just a handful of 'glass ceiling events' tells a story about a world where the PC just can't seem to get ahead.  I like the idea of credit being handed off to NPCs and the PC being the "woman behind the man." I just don't think it should be a specific man all the time.   It needs to be society as 'the dom' for it to be a "glass ceiling."

 

A Quick Idea

-Blacksmith's teach female characters how to craft heels, dresses and jewelry instead of helmets and daggers.

"good work tanning that leather, now take it to the workbench and I'll show you how to shorten the skirt"

 

Some quests have obvious 'credit takers' other's don't.  Go for the good reward/effort ratio quests and just leave other stuff alone, it's ok if a struggling heroine wins sometimes.  I also don't know if it's really necessary to have a misogynistic glass ceiling or just one for the PC.  You can broaden you options if you allow female NPCs to take advantage as well

Link to comment

The idea of stolen credit and general disrespect is fantastic, though I might agree with Darkwing that it's better (and for me at least, more interesting in the long term) if it isn't tied to a single male "follower".  It puts a lot of pressure on that one relationship - pressure, that is, in writing the character, since he becomes a permanent fixture of entire games.  Variety would be nice, but that's even more difficult to implement.

 

On the other hand, the follower implementation does a better job as a gold-sink.  Still, most rewards can be prevented using your original concept, and there could be generalized events to deprive the player of dungeon-loot.  This could involve any follower the player happens to have - for example, on trying to sell the twenty weapons dragged out of the last ruin, the merchant expresses doubt that the player could possibly have obtained them in the way described, and calls a guard to investigate.  Any male follower rushes to take credit to avoid the legal difficulties, but then of course can't return the gold as he "swore it was his", and is a man of his word.  A female follower might do the same, if using Darkwing's idea that the glass ceiling is PC-specific, not for all women ... some women are not so bad, but everyone knows the PC is just a boastful leech on those who really work for a living.

 

Lacking followers for the above, the town can extort levy sudden supplementary taxes on player homes, or there could be more blatantly illegal actions - a PC known to be wealthy is going to be a target, and nobody will give any credence to the lies she tells about shakedowns, ambushes by guards, or of waking up tied to her bed with dark figures going through her things.  It doesn't deprive her of gold immediately, she might manage to purchase some nice upgrades... but nothing will last for long.

 

Still, the dialogue snippets you mention, Lupine, are very appealing ... it could work with a follower, I just don't think it would have the same staying power if it revolves around one NPC (even with others complicit).

 

It also brings to mind the "Real Dragonborn" follower in Troubles of Heroine mod, though I've never tried that.

Link to comment

Great concept.  Seems the core mechanics of DF but something more integrated into the game world.  The Troubles of Heroine mod does have the fake/real Dragonborn dynamic.  Also reminds of Babodialogue's vice captain (who takes over breezehome and bullies the player for intercourse).  I think picking the dominant, Maria Eden style might be fun to consider but I don't think it's a real issue for the concept.

 

The issue with DF (or any mod that deprives the player of agency in a meaningful way) is that the desire to go through the content usually overwhelms my interest in the changes to gameplay mechanics they bring.  This is sort of an issue with Skyrim in general (it was always a little dull) but I find that it's easy for interacting with these mods to turn into self-contained bubble sessions.  If the mechanics have enough dynamism with consequences (there's a back and forth where the content equips the mechanics and vice versa) then it could be another story.  Maria Eden probably came closest to this of any mod, I think, partly because it had it's own logics for submissive actions, dominant behaviors, outfits, pimp master selection, etc.  DF probably a distant second, because really the spiral sort of just goes one way when the purpose of the deals is to experience them.  Another way to do it is to just make the content pervasive through the game world, but no one's really combined that with a persistent dominant follower yet.

Link to comment

I think you could toggle on/off the gold stealing, as its really a secondary function.

 

He's not a parasite. He's just a man, looking after the money in a responsible manly way, just in case you spend it all on shoes or cakes or something.

Possibly the punchline is he really thinks he is the dragonborn.

It would work similarly to that mod that adds a follower called Dragonborn to patch up issues with "You aren't the dragonborn" mods, dealing with issues where people talk about the dragonborn that never shows up. Of course, in this you would be the dragonborn.

 

But I just like scarcity mods. Skyrim is a bit easy without them.

If you used this without any devious mods, it would be a pretty straight game except for the scarcity and dialog twists - and the scarcity could reasonably be toggled.

 

There are probably a ton of things that could add to this:

 

Situations where he "explains" things to you that (obviously) you understand better than him, such as magic, combat ... whatever your skills are best in, he'll explain how you're doing it wrong.

 

The bigger question is why you don't murder this pest. It's not like the dragonborn is averse to a little violence.

And let's not forget the Dwarvenborn :) 

 

I was paying attention to how the end of the college line plays out, and you have to alter quite a bit to fix it. Not trivial stuff, and that's just one quest, albeit a major one..

Link to comment
On 10/14/2019 at 2:50 AM, Darkwing241 said:

A Quick Idea

-Blacksmith's teach female characters how to craft heels, dresses and jewelry instead of helmets and daggers.

"good work tanning that leather, now take it to the workbench and I'll show you how to shorten the skirt"

Wonderful.

 

And even then, they'll only teach you if you're already highly skilled at smithing, and add lots of extra explanation?

Link to comment
On 10/14/2019 at 3:48 AM, legraf said:

Still, the dialogue snippets you mention, Lupine, are very appealing ... it could work with a follower, I just don't think it would have the same staying power if it revolves around one NPC (even with others complicit).

Thinking of this... And a solution to killing the follower...

 

Imagine if you could kill him - except in a town - but whenever you do, he ends up replaced with another male follower who acts exactly the same?

 

When you kill him, he won't even fight back, and exclaims various random tragi-comedy lines while you murder him:

 

"I'd defend myself, but I can't hit a woman."

"How traitorous are the fairer sex!"

"Who will save the world now? You've doomed us all wench!"

 

After a few slayings, you realise its futile and give up killing them, because it achieves nothing.

Or maybe you keep killing them because its strangely satisfying?

Either way, you can't kill them in town. If you do it there, he's invulnerable, and you get arrested.

 

Whenever you get back to a town, another idiot turns up to take the credit (and possibly the loot too).

Link to comment
6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Imagine if you could kill him - except in a town - but whenever you do, he ends up replaced with another male follower who acts exactly the same?

 

When you kill him, he won't even fight back, and exclaims various random tragi-comedy lines while you murder him:

 

"I'd defend myself, but I can't hit a woman."

"How traitorous are the fairer sex!"

"Who will save the world now? You've doomed us all wench!"

That's a surprisingly eloquent solution.  It gives me a little bit of that "Stanley Parable" kind of feeling.  You just need a snarky narrator to explain to you how killing him won't change anything.

Link to comment
15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Imagine if you could kill him - except in a town - but whenever you do, he ends up replaced with another male follower who acts exactly the same?

 

When you kill him, he won't even fight back, and exclaims various random tragi-comedy lines while you murder him:

Ha!  I laughed... that's so good.  Nice solution to two issues.

And Lupine00... perhaps you should update your .sig to reflect SLAX and DF Continued (DFC?).  So you'll get even more helpful, and otherwise, suggestions.

Link to comment

An excellent idea. You know if you ever write this, theres a chance male subs with game-aware dommes will be told they can only play Skyrim with a female PC and this mod active?

Link to comment

My suggestion is to add something unique that only the follower can provide in order for the player to wish to keep him around, otherwise it will just become a game of how fast the player can kill the obnoxious dude.

Perhaps he is a good fighter, or a good healer, a good hunter, providess a unique good buff, something helpful/useful that can act as a bait for you to want to keep him around. This could be a way to reduce the chance of the player getting skillpoints/levels and increasing the follower desirability.

 

Although it could be fun starting an enourmous pile of corpses of all the pretenders as a longterm game goal.

 

Link to comment

One other possible disincentive to killing him or having him killed off ... perhaps for a long period (2 weeks?) after his death, no other followers will accompany the PC, since he or she is obviously bad luck.  After all, even the spectacular follower/hero couldn't survive long with the PC, despite all his obvious qualities and past successes.  From then on, perhaps the base DF or mercenary rate doubles as well.

Link to comment

I'm late to the discussion, but I concur with Darkwing's sentiment that the game play becomes all about the male follower as an obstacle, rather than a male-dominated society in general.  The male follower concept also compels the PC to have, well, a male follower, and female followers are more fun.  If the core intent is to have a glass ceiling, much of that can accomplished without a follower at all.  The blacksmith lesson is a good example.

 

On the matter of a gold sink for quest rewards, there's no need for a male follower to take it.  You just feel robbed.  Instead, greatly reduce the amount of the reward, and be sure that the PC understands that this is what a woman gets paid.  That reinforces the notion of a glass ceiling better than a follower leech. 

Link to comment
On 11/19/2019 at 1:26 PM, Loki15kun said:

My suggestion is to add something unique that only the follower can provide in order for the player to wish to keep him around, otherwise it will just become a game of how fast the player can kill the obnoxious dude.

Perhaps he is a good fighter, or a good healer, a good hunter, providess a unique good buff, something helpful/useful that can act as a bait for you to want to keep him around. This could be a way to reduce the chance of the player getting skillpoints/levels and increasing the follower desirability.

 

Honestly this would be extremely important. The concept would work so much better if he's actually competent. This is the kind of mod idea which would benefit immensely from a massive XP penalty and the follower as a trainer or some such thing. He also shouldn't be a total shit, just casually misogynistic. A massive lightening of the men-over-women dialogue mood as proposed would really go a long way too.

 

Gifts could be quest items, or otherwise marked so as to never be taken back. This can then be used to equip the player in a way he prefers, or even drive the entire direction of the mod. A lighter, less dangerous sword? Perfect for a girl! He values you and wants you to feel useful, but doesn't want you to hurt yourself by accident. Skimpier, sexier clothing and armor? Absolutely! He wants you to feel pretty and wanted, like all lovely women do. Did he just take your gold and sell off all your loot? Not to worry! He's being chivalrous in doing the mundane work. After all, he got good prices and he'll carry that heavy sack of gold for you. Need to buy something? Just ask for some, but not too much - he's helping you save for a rainy day as well. Need to become more effective at something? He'll teach you a little at a time - he doesn't want you to get frustrated.

 

Everyone else just ignores you and assumes you're the backup, but him? He gives you useful and occasionally powerful things as well as money and training. Indulgent, paternalistic, and more subtly misogynistic would work much better I think. Oh, and satisfying him sexually makes him much more appreciative of your endearing and earnest attempts to become a warrior's companion.

 

On 11/19/2019 at 8:07 PM, legraf said:

One other possible disincentive to killing him or having him killed off ... perhaps for a long period (2 weeks?) after his death, no other followers will accompany the PC, since he or she is obviously bad luck.  After all, even the spectacular follower/hero couldn't survive long with the PC, despite all his obvious qualities and past successes.  From then on, perhaps the base DF or mercenary rate doubles as well.

 

Not only is Lupine's idea for the "endless dude-bro follower" darkly funny, you've proposed a relief mechanism that could form a gameplay loop. What if, during that down time, you can do what you want, sell what you want, sleep where you want, and just generally play the game and get ahead? Except now your skills don't progress beyond a snail's pace because you've become accustomed to being taught as opposed to learning until you find another man to accompany you? Of course your next companion has his own ideas as to what weapons, clothing, armor, and trinkets a proper follower should have, so you might just have to endure the gift routine from my above reply all over again...

 

On 12/30/2019 at 1:35 PM, HexBolt8 said:

On the matter of a gold sink for quest rewards, there's no need for a male follower to take it.  You just feel robbed.  Instead, greatly reduce the amount of the reward, and be sure that the PC understands that this is what a woman gets paid.  That reinforces the notion of a glass ceiling better than a follower leech. 

 

So much more of this, especially since it would vastly reduce the work involved in individual quests. Scarcity, Gold Adjustment, and Reduced Gold Rewards are mods that come to mind here, as well as Sexist/Derogatory Guards. Again, if the follower is useful, caring, and powerful, he can be as righteously misogynistic as he wants. He'll then just blend into the overall fabric of silly-side Skyrim.

Link to comment

I love the idea of killable but another one takes his place, as making him invulnerable would make it feel too rigged and un-fun.

 

I also think there needs to be a hook to tempt you to keep him alive, as well as consequences for murdering him.

 

Playing on the training idea, supposing he is the ONLY trainer who will train you, skilling up can only be done with training, and of course he will not only mete out training slower and slower the higher you go (you need to practice more, girl, you're not ready yet) but you have to be together for some period of time before he will trust you enough to even start training you. A period of time which increases (doubles?) each time you off one and start with a new one. And of course the higher the level of training, the happier he has to be with your compliance to his demands and desires.

 

Additional penalties for killing him could be an automatic major crime bounty in the hold he was from, or the hold you were last seen in, or both, no witnesses required. And/or general shuning and whispers in one or both of those holds for some weeks. Nobody will trade with you, can't stay in the inns, guards suspicious and following you around, etc.

 

And it might twist your concept beyond recognition and interest, but suppose instead of being a general misogyny, instead it's a gender neutral personal discrimination against *you* by everyone in Skyrim. For whatever reason (The Curse of The Dragonborn?) no matter what you do or who you talk to, you just can't get no respect! So the followers could then be either gender (configurable of course). It would require a different tone to the dialogs, dismissive of *you* rather than of women in general. But it would be fun if some of these people trying to dominate and domesticate you were women.

Link to comment

I wasn't too serious about this idea originally, but there's a certain charm to it.

 

I don't see it as a misogyny mod in the LL sense. I don't think there should be huge penalties or difficulty, or people trying to enslave or control you ... much ... where that occurred it would be a failed attempt, played for laughs.

 

Troubles of Heroine has done some things that seem ... a bit similar ... to this, with its apologising, fake dragonborn, doppelganger, etc.

ToH is playing for laughs, but mostly that mod makes the PC a punching bag.

 

I do like the idea of playing a very vanilla Skyrim with this one conceptual change that no matter what good thing you do, as long as any men are involved, a man gets credit. There are parts of Skyrim that wouldn't be touched by it, other parts that would chance only in dialog, or scene participants.

 

In Helgen, after escaping the cave, the NPC you choose condescendingly offers to let you tag along now that's he's rescued you. Follows on from the voiced dialogue.

Arrive in Riverwood, and a male NPC tacks on. "I'd go to Whiterun myself but I need to warn people here. You can carry this message for me, can't you? Run along girl."

 

Whenever you enter Dragonsreach, a man is already there. He always tells you to "Hurry up girl, this is no time to smell the flowers. There's work to be done."

Speak to the Jarl, and the Jarl is talking to the man. You don't get the quest reward. He does.

After speaking to Farengar, additional dialog from the man. "Come along girl, you can help me fetch this Dragonstone." He probably dies in the first fight with the bandits, if not that, duergar probably get him. Doesn't matter.

When you hand the stone over, another man is there to take credit, already there in Dragonsreach.

 

The fight at the guard tower goes much the same.

 

However, with Delphine, there are no changes.

 

And so on.

 

If people want to mix that with a mod like SLS or ToH, that would be up to them.

Link to comment
10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I don't see it as a misogyny mod in the LL sense. I don't think there should be huge penalties or difficulty, or people trying to enslave or control you ... much ... where that occurred it would be a failed attempt, played for laughs.

If I could offer a thinking point.  I don't think this mod needs to be about misogyny at all.  I think maybe it should even distinctly NOT be about misogyny.  Here is my reasoning.

 

If you have a world where NPC's constantly swoop in to take credit.  It's really just going to be the PC getting taken advantage of, not "women."  

 

What is the difference between "haha girl's are dumb" and "haha YOU are dumb"?  Not a heck of a lot from the misogyny kink fan's view point, but a you have a lot more options with the second.  One of my biggest dislikes about SLS is that it is basically "super misogyny world."  It eliminates the possibility of having a female top.  Why can't a sexy dominatrix swoop in and take credit? 

 

I mean, the "glass ceiling" name is a dope name for a mod, but beyond that I don't see a ton of reason to lock into that.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Darkwing241 said:

Why can't a sexy dominatrix swoop in and take credit? 

It seems like there's room for that if your follower is the one taking credit (rather than some random man) and that follower happens to be a sexy dominatrix.  There will always be a few women who manage to be successful in a man's world -- just not you (the PC).  To fit in, those women might adopt many of the men's mannerisms and refer to you dismissively as Sweetroll, and so on.  If it worked like that, it's still essentially a glass ceiling, with a few female collaborators helping to keep you down.

Link to comment
18 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

If you have a world where NPC's constantly swoop in to take credit.  It's really just going to be the PC getting taken advantage of, not "women." 

I based this idea on a real world workplace experience that women often have, and men have a less often.

 

In short, a woman is asked to do some task, for example, to write terms of reference and policy documents for a new department or project, or to set up a development team.

 

Once the work is done, the logical leader is the woman who planned it all and put everything in place. The whole concept might have been her idea from the start.

 

But what happens at the end, is a man, with less experience and ability is picked to take the leadership role. He inherits all the foundation work that the woman did and takes credit for it. He then either expects her to basically do his job while he takes credit and talks too much in meetings while everyone looks at their phones, or she gets some even more-menial chore. She thought she was building a ladder, but she has banged her head on a glass ceiling. Meanwhile, the man who takes her place will have no such obstacles in his way.

 

I agree the person elbowing in doesn't have to be a man, and the person elbowed out doesn't have to be a woman.

Probably, in real life, what matters is that the parachutist has a pre-existing relationship with someone senior, and it's that personal history that "qualifies" them for the job, over the person who actually knows how to do it.

 

But for me it's a very simple, clear, joke, that some women are going to get, and fewer men are going to find funny. It gets a bit diluted when you start to make it fit everyone, or add sexy elements. My "vision" is to take the idea and reduce it to the bare minimum required to make the point. That's all it is though, it's not an idea that is supposed to make Skyrim more interesting to play, or to hang additional fresh scenarios on.

 

It's probably not the most common scenario - as in the most common scenario, the woman who could do the job well isn't even considered to do anything relating to it, and won't be allowed near the project until after the men have already divided up the good roles and made a heap of bad decisions that she will spend the next two years sorting out for them, while they ... take credit for "mentoring" her.

 

I'll admit though, that's not necessarily interesting Skyrim humor, and is probably better handled in a comedy show like The Office or something.

Link to comment

The idea of a Skyrim overhaul that takes an idea like SLS or Sexist Guards and bolts an alternate - suitable - main quest into it, is something else entirely.

A valid idea, certainly...

 

The question is what is the intended "arc" of your SLS game?

Does the PC overcome the obstacles, become super-tough, and save the world by beating Alduin to a pulp multiple times?

 

Or. is it always supposed to end badly, with the PC dead from a skooma overdose after spending 72 hours being non-stop fucked by trolls and badgers?

 

Or, is it more interesting to have a new way to defeat Alduin? With the PC more of a contributing spectator rather than the prime-mover?

 

In the latter case, a "boss follower" concept might make sense.

Link to comment
9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The question is what is the intended "arc" of your SLS game?

With or without SLS, I rarely bother with Alduin.  Mostly I play non Dragonborn characters.  The last time I played a Dragonborn, I role played it that the better-connected bossy follower (though not "boss" in the sense of being stronger) took the credit for dragon kills and quest successes in general.  I tend to play to level 40-50, then I get interested in starting over with a different character.  Sometimes I deem that my character failed and met a bad end prior to that point, depending on circumstances. 

 

I use mods like Sexist Guards as a backdrop, and I've tweaked my game to eliminate female guards, so the glass ceiling concept would fit my own games well as long it's formulated as either the follower (of either gender) taking credit, or (if solo) receiving scant recognition and greatly reduced quest rewards (there are mods for that) because that's what women are paid.  It certainly feels harsh to complete a difficult quest and get paid chump change.  Having a random man claim credit *is* amusing, but I personally prefer that if solo then people decide that the accomplishment couldn't have been that hard (e.g., the dragon was badly weakened in its last fight with a city's guards and the PC finished it with a lucky hit and probably didn't even scratched -- it's rather embarrassing that she wants any credit).

Link to comment
5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The question is what is the intended "arc" of your SLS game?

Does the PC overcome the obstacles, become super-tough, and save the world by beating Alduin to a pulp multiple times?

 

Or. is it always supposed to end badly, with the PC dead from a skooma overdose after spending 72 hours being non-stop fucked by trolls and badgers?

 

Or, is it more interesting to have a new way to defeat Alduin? With the PC more of a contributing spectator rather than the prime-mover?

So the "arc" of my games is usually the former.  That is mostly because that is what mods support.

 

-I almost always play as a functional PC with reasonable skills

-I prefer my "power kink" to be a strong woman brought low. Not a low woman being brought lower.

-I prefer repeated/long term partners to be female

-I prefer gradual transformation to quick bondage

-I prefer "realistic" +social grooming +contracts/uniforms +training

-I dislike instant magical "mind control collars"

 

My last 3 characters and their stories

 



-A Nordic Valkyrie using heavy armor and lightning spells for range combat.  Pretty and she knows it.  Blunt and straightforward, easily tricked.  She didn't last long once she was naked and stuffed with a vibrator that sapped her magic.  Her career ended with a bell clanking between her legs running through riverwood naked.

-An Imperial thief (your classic light armor/one hand/bow/stealth skyrim build) but used no magic at all relying on alchemy for healing and poisoning her bow.  She was petite, kind of a girl next door pretty but doesn't know it, Shy, Sly, but not as clever as she thinks and tends to get herself into trouble.  Played her with YPS fashion and self imposed "dress codes" at different locations.  She started out wearing some basic makeup at the tavern, felt good about herself, she liked the confidence.  She killed a necromancer and stole her high heeled boots.  They made her taller and she felt more confident in front of the Jarl.  She got her hair done in a big sexy perm to sweet talk the local shop keepers, she needed to get a good deal selling this haul of treasure so she could pay for mascara.  Finding treasure was getting harder tottering around in heels, but like hell she was going to be seen without them!  Fighting the Draugr was out of the question with this corset crushing her waist, it's hard for her to breath and run and she definitely couldn't use her shouts anymore.  People were nice to her in town though, at least as long as she kept her appearances up!

-A Nord Cleric who was worthless as a fighting, and was rubbish with destruction magic, but was an adept conjurer and a master of restoration.  She met a beautiful and dangerous dark elf in Whiterun.  She would craft deadly poisons to bring down dragons and with her companion and her flame atronach she could overcome any challenge.  She found great riches in Skyrim but she spent the money just as fast, buying a luxury house in Solitude, fine clothes and paying her increasingly needy companion. She fell victim to a powerful curse but luckily her heroic champion was there the bail her out.  She was so grateful that she let the dark elf take her out drinking, the first alcohol she had ever had.  The next morning when they woke up in bed together.  It was a shock but a girl could do worse than the beautiful dark elf that had kept her safe during their travels.   Maybe it was the new uniform, or maybe everyone just knew she had broken her vow of chastity but this was the third time a stranger approached her for sex!  Luckily the dark elf had seen to the protection of her virtue! She would do anything to protect the Dark Elf, if she had to suck off that guy at the tavern so that they could have a warm bed so be it.  After all it was her job to make sure things stayed profitable, it's not like she had a choice, locked in this belt and with her hands sealed away there was really only one way she could make money for the Dark Elf.

 

I think all Skyrim characters end up in a "bad end" whether it's a kinky one or one where there situation just gets boring to the player.  I think it's important to be able to play Skyrim as well .

 

So your actual questions

 

1. I think it should be a mix.  I think characters should start out on the weak side as they do in normal Skyrim.  They should ramp up in power to become an adventurer and then it should become harder and harder to maintain that momentum.  At some point the ball should begin rolling backwards as the various concessions the player has made pile up.

 

2. I think 72 hours with trolls and badgers is a good "ending point." Somewhere along the decent things are going to get either too hot or too boring to continue playing though.  The worthier part of the Skyrim is the middle, just like in the base game.

 

3. I don't think the PC should be a spectator, but I do like the idea of the NPCs thinking she's a spectator. 

Link to comment
18 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

3. I don't think the PC should be a spectator, but I do like the idea of the NPCs thinking she's a spectator. 

By "contributing spectator" I mean the PC isn't the protagonist of the story, not the mighty Dragonborn, for whom everything is easy, and defeating Alduin is just so much shouting ans sword swinging with an inevitable success at the end of it.

 

Rather, the PC is somebody like the Dragonborn's loyal love-slave, always available for hot wet blow-job, carrying his burdens, and perhaps healing him when things look dicey (though of course he'd never acknowledge the PC's contribution, she is just a woman after all, and not even a classy one).

 

I liked the idea in Mia's Lair with Dominant Andrew, though the execution was ... unsatisfying and repetitive ... but Andrew was faulty in that he didn't think he was in charge of adventuring, just sex. He was ultimately just a possessive follower with wild personality swings. At least with ToH's Bruiser, you know where you stand.

Link to comment
41 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Rather, the PC is somebody like the Dragonborn's loyal love-slave, always available for hot wet blow-job, carrying his burdens, and perhaps healing him when things look dicey (though of course he'd never acknowledge the PC's contribution, she is just a woman after all, and not even a classy one).

Well that sounds like a pretty different mod than the "glass ceiling" where a npc runs in and takes credit for various stuff.

 

There is definitely a place for a love-slave mod, but there are a lot of those out there already, even if none are really perfection. Seems like a lot to take on when you might end up with  just a slightly different version of a mod that already exists.

 

Ultimately though I think the most interesting way to go about it would be to just write a story rather than make things procedural.  Make something simple that can be plugged into main story quests.  I think my preference would be for that mod to not be a follower mod though. Instead just make it random preexisting skyrim characters that credit. Even better would be to use the excuse of a rebuilt main quest to leave places for other mods to hook in and interact, while not being a requirement.

 

 

Link to comment
15 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

Well that sounds like a pretty different mod than the "glass ceiling" where a npc runs in and takes credit for various stuff.

Completely different. Absolutely unrelated. More to do with Boss Follower than Glass Ceiling, which doesn't even really need a follower.

Sorry if that caused confusion. I tried to make a counterpoint between making that sort of mod, and the sort of thing that a well-bounded Glass Ceiling would be.

No relationship antics or change in how you play at all in GC.

 

15 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

There is definitely a place for a love-slave mod, but there are a lot of those out there already, even if none are really perfection.

Are there?

I can think of some, but only one is maintained, and even that is a state of mind:

  • Pet Project - maintained, but very, very rarely so
  • Submissive Lola - ancient and not really working well
  • Mia's Lair, Sex Slaves (Dominant Andrew) - long abandoned, shows its age and has various issues, also the DA part of it is unfinished and leaves you on something of a cliff-hanger
  • Pet Collar - not really IMHO
  • SD+ - definitely not a "love" slave, more of a staring at walls and walking in endless loops slave
  • Some bits of content in ToH, but it's really not a whole mod, just some throwaway stuff

There is no serious modern equivalent to Dominant Andrew from ML/SS.

 

Link to comment
On 2/10/2020 at 3:59 AM, Lupine00 said:

Completely different. Absolutely unrelated. More to do with Boss Follower than Glass Ceiling, which doesn't even really need a follower.

Sorry if that caused confusion. I tried to make a counterpoint between making that sort of mod, and the sort of thing that a well-bounded Glass Ceiling would be.

No relationship antics or change in how you play at all in GC.

 

Are there?

I can think of some, but only one is maintained, and even that is a state of mind:

  • Pet Project - maintained, but very, very rarely so
  • Submissive Lola - ancient and not really working well
  • Mia's Lair, Sex Slaves (Dominant Andrew) - long abandoned, shows its age and has various issues, also the DA part of it is unfinished and leaves you on something of a cliff-hanger
  • Pet Collar - not really IMHO
  • SD+ - definitely not a "love" slave, more of a staring at walls and walking in endless loops slave
  • Some bits of content in ToH, but it's really not a whole mod, just some throwaway stuff

There is no serious modern equivalent to Dominant Andrew from ML/SS.

 

Agree. A truly Dominant follower along the lines of Andrew is sorely lacking.  Andrew was never really all that Dominant except for demanding and controlling sex.

Link to comment

×
×
  • Create New...