Help For An Aspiring Modder

Luna_Natsume · April 10, 2012

So here is the situation:

I am an artist, I have done hot girl drawings since I was 13 years old (Hormones really kicked in all of a sudden and I needed an outlet). I have tried in the past to request mods that I love into body types I like, I have tried begging for some of the hawt clothes I love to be created... but to no avail.

Don't get me wrong, I realize not everyone has the same tastes I do and in fact some of my interests are downright weird, so most people dont want to spend their time trying to make me happy. LOL I wouldn't expect them too.

With that being said, I desperately need help. I realize the only way I am EVER going to get what I want is to do it myself. So will someone help an aspiring modder to create the things he loves? I need to know what programs I need, how to install them correctly, where to start, how to convert armors, how to create ones from scratch... and by god learn in the simplest terms possible. I am 34 years old, and a little slow when it comes to learning new things. I looked on the wiki and honestly it's all freakin gibberish to me.

Now to the community as a whole, I am MORE than willing to share any and ALL mods I create, and also allow anyone to improve/change any of my mods as they see fit... if only someone will help me makes those first clumsy steps.

Here is an example of the things I would make:

Argonian (My version)

Khajit (My version)

These are just a few of my drawings... but as you can see, I am mad about stipey thigh-highs, loose socks, platform shoes, arm/leg-warmers, and most especially schoolgirls. These would be most of the things I would do with my mods.

So how about it, anyone willing to help me live my dream?

...please?

Some quick info about me:

I am a college grad, with a bachelors in fine art, but that was about 10+ years ago.

I have a VERY good aptitude for photoshop CS, but I haven't actually owned a copy in about 5 years.

I have only a basic working knowledge of GIMP, I can blunder my way through it well enough to do what I want.

I have NEVER used a single 3d modeling program before, so I have ZIP knowledge of how they work, or even basic terminology.

I have a novice understanding of my computer, enough to install mods correctly, and basic file structure, but I am not familliar enough with Bethsda file types to know the difference between a .dds or a .nif.

I have no knowledge of scripting, or even how to do it, why it's needed, of even how it works.

So I need a LOT of help. LOL

BSnake · April 10, 2012

Hey there, I'm a fledgling modder myself and it takes some effort to learn the basics of modding. I would first recommend installing some custom mods from LL that catch your eye. Mods here are frequently uploaded/updated without Nexus Mod Manager packages, so you will have to manually install/overwrite files. Take the time to see how mods are packaged and it will get you familiar with Skyrim's modding files, where they are located in Skyrim's directory, and what they do.

Simply put, a mesh defines the shape of a 3D model, and in the Creation Kit, it is known as a .nif file. A texture adds detail/color to a 3D model, and in the CK, it is known as a .dds file. For the CK, you will need several meshes for each part of the model (head, body, hands, feet, etc.) and several textures (normal map, model space normal map, specular map, sub-dermal texture, etc). This will become apparent as you dabble in the Creation Kit because it requires certain meshes and textures for certain models.

I would start by learning how to use the CK and eventually using already existing mods to create your own custom body. For example, try changing Jordis' body by following the steps described here. Your Jordis might end up with a flat chest, a medium chest, or a huge chest, depending on what meshes/textures you used from an existing body mod.

Blender is a free 3D modelling tool that is used by many Skyrim modders. I haven't delved deep into it yet, but you should start small by following beginner tutorials that you can find online. After you have become accustomed to it, you can begin making your actual models and applying textures using Photoshop, GIMP, etc. Here is a tutorial on applying textures to 3D models for Skyrim.

A knack for research will go a long way. There's a ton of resources out there, but you'll have to manually search for said info on Google, the Nexus, and here on LL. For example, here is a modding resource for Skyrim that you should bookmark for later.

Luna_Natsume · April 11, 2012

I saw a comprehensive tutorial on Lovers Lab that showed in detail (Screenies too) on how to convert armors to a different body type... but before I thought to bookmark it, I already lost it.

Anyone know where I might find that page? I am looking for nice tutorials like that, with piccies and a step by step description on how to achieve end results I am looking for.

Luna_Natsume · April 13, 2012

So I have a newfound resspect for modders and anyone who has blender knowledge... This is a DAMNED complicated program.

I was trying to convert Osares UNP kneesocks into CBBE, and I spend the better part of 6 hours pouring over tutorials and playing with nifscope. I couldn't even finish one single _0.nif. I got about halfway through the tutorial when things started going horribly wrong.

Nodes the tutorial were telling me I needed to delete, werent there so I figured that wasn't important. I continued on and I kept getting blender errors when importing nif files. It says 'error, check the console' but imported the files regardless. So I kept going. Then I get to the part where I am unwrapping the mesh for texturing and my right sock looks like all the verticies are scattered all over the place... even though my view on the leg looks flawless.

Sigh... once I tried reconverting the file to Skyrim compatible, all the files the tutorial said I should have, weren't there. So I called it a night and went to bed. I just can't comprehend how anyone can do this on a regular basis, and all I was doing was converting... I didn't even try to create my own!!!! LOL Hentai is one amazing person to pump out as many armors as they do.

Any help to make this easier on me?

itchymonkey · April 15, 2012

So I have a newfound resspect for modders and anyone who has blender knowledge... This is a DAMNED complicated program.

I was trying to convert Osares UNP kneesocks into CBBE' date=' and I spend the better part of 6 hours pouring over tutorials and playing with nifscope. I couldn't even finish one single _0.nif. I got about halfway through the tutorial when things started going horribly wrong.

Nodes the tutorial were telling me I needed to delete, werent there so I figured that wasn't important. I continued on and I kept getting blender errors when importing nif files. It says 'error, check the console' but imported the files regardless. So I kept going. Then I get to the part where I am unwrapping the mesh for texturing and my right sock looks like all the verticies are scattered all over the place... even though my view on the leg looks flawless.

Sigh... once I tried reconverting the file to Skyrim compatible, all the files the tutorial said I should have, weren't there. So I called it a night and went to bed. I just can't comprehend how anyone can do this on a regular basis, and all I was doing was converting... I didn't even try to create my own!!!! LOL Hentai is one amazing person to pump out as many armors as they do.

Any help to make this easier on me?

[/quote']

The problem is most 3D render tutorials aren't good tutorials anyway. They just tell you to do this and to do that without ever explaining exactly why it needed to be done. The tutorials themselves can't even be bothered to explain some of the jargon involved with 3D modelling and assumes we all magically know what they all mean.

It's also the problem with the programming software being unoptimized and poorly thought out and mostly incompatible with other 3D software without elaborate work-arounds. The Skyrim engine on it's own is probably the worst culprit of all, which poorly accepts ports unless you get it just right.

Compared to lets say, Photoshop and Illustrator, MS Paint, Sai and Corel Paint being all programs that are cross-compatiable having very similar interfaces, and are easy and straightforwards to use.

Also, greetings from a fellow artist. I'm from a small group of artists working on drawing porn for fun between ourselves. I'm probably the only one in the group that actually plays Skyrim though, but hey, at least as an artist you don't need to wait for sex mods.

You know, we should start an art thread!

Luna_Natsume · April 15, 2012

Okay, I am TRULY exhausted... how it is that people can do this is beyond me!

I finally figured out why my meshes werent importing correctly, fixed that.

I figured out why my nodes weren't showing up, fixed that.

I figured out why unwrapping wasn't working, fixed that.

I continued (from the beginning) on the KneeSocks project I have been working on.

Problem #1: When I use the shrinkwrap feature, I can't get the feet of the socks too... because it will only let me adhere to one body part at a time.

Problem #2: The entire 'dismemberment' chapter was completely confusing and lacking in any sensable or usable format. I still have no idea if I did anything or if anything needed to be done.

Problem #3: I went ahead and put it in the game, overwriting the original kneesocks... typed up 'help socks 4' found the one I was working on (plain white)...

*cry*

NOTHING HAS CHANGED AT ALL!!! The white ones look exactly like the black and stripey... I over wrote the white file, but it looks EXACTLY the same as it did before. Same clipping and size. Doesn't fit my body at ALL.

I REALLY want to keep trying, but I am reaching a breaking point here. 12 hours worth of "noob to pro" tutorials, 6 hours of actual work, taking every step as carefully as I could. and to end up with litterally NO CHANGE. It's heart breaking!

Firedoom · April 15, 2012

Take a breather.

Also, take everything I have to say as if I don't know what I'm talking about... because I probably don't. I have been avoiding attempting to mod Skyrim for basically all of the reasons you have been getting frustrated. I can't afford to pay over $3,000 for 3dsMax to support my modding habit, so I am also stuck with Blender when it comes to editing meshes.

First thing's first. It sounds like when you exported your new mesh from blender, it didn't include the changes you made in the editor. But for me to try to name exactly what happened in your efforts to edit that mesh is like taking shots in the dark at a target that may not even be out there. Try exporting from object mode with the object you are exporting selected, that is if you haven't already tried that...

Second thing... to help you shrink-wrap around the whole limb. You can join separate objects together by selecting them both and pressing Ctrl-J. I believe Ctrl-P also works... although that might not work well for shrink-wrapping. I've never tried anything quite as complicated as converting armor from one body type to another.

Luna_Natsume · April 15, 2012

Thanks Firedoom, I appreciate the input, and I will DEFINATELY give that ctrl+j thing a try at a later time.

Figured out why it wasn't showing up, because I saved it as a socks_0.nif, and my character has a size body_1. So I copied my _0.nif and renamed it socks_1.nif just so I could get it to show up in game.

*Sigh* Now instead of no changes, nothing at ALL shows up. In fact I somehow broke all the socks, as NONE of them will show up, not just the white ones. I tried to showracemenu to resize my body to see if that was the problem. No change at all.

Okay, quick question: If a mod has pelvic/leg/foot/toe bones, and I delete the foot/toe bones, but kept all the original settings (weighting/dismember/shaders/textures) the same, will that cause the problem I am experiencing?

Basically I took a sock that had legs and feet parts, and I was only able to resize the sock down to the ankle, so the foot part disappeared. As it didn't have any foot/toe parts left, the bones had nothing to connect too, so nifscope removed them with the 'bogus nodes' function. All the other settings are the same as the original socks, except having those bones. Would that screw it up?

Endiness · April 16, 2012

Not sure I'm following this.

When you export a file to nif, you have to make numerous changes to it before it can work properly in Skyrim. Hard to help since your using blender, but you may have the additional step of changing the version # and user version # back to the original .nif after export.

BSDismember IDs should be the same as in the original nifs.

BsLightshaderProperties should be copied over from original nifs.

Wrong bsd # will cause to not show up at all. Incorrect shader properties will cause mesh to show up improperly or crash.

You're going to need show a picture for this problem.

SO you had leggings that covered feet -> leggings that cover down to the ankles?

Anyway, Nifskope will remove bones where all vertices have a weighting of zero. That's fine.

Luna_Natsume · April 17, 2012

Okay, so I started over... now most people would go with something easier.. like a simple bikini or something. Nope, not me... I tried converting the Rikku outfit to a nice skinny body with huge knockers. LOL

So I followed the tutorial exactly, and this is what happened:

So my armor doesn't move AT ALL first of all, so what did I do wrong there...?

Second, all my textures are all dark for some reason...?

Third, Where the hell is my body? I followed the tutorial, obviously not as well as I should have.

BUUUUUUT... when all was said and done, at LEAST my armor showed up, even if it doesn't move at all. LOL

Another bonus, is my textures show up... even if they are completely dark and ugly...

Any help on this?

Endiness · April 17, 2012

Are you using bsshaders from another armor? Quick run down here

1. Open your nif along with another armor nif from the game in two seperate windows.

Look at the bsshaders for a nitrishape. Ones exported from blender/Max have different clamp modes, flags, emissive/specular colors and values. Not good.

2. Expand BSLightingShaderProperties for the nitrapes on both nifs. Copy texture paths from your own nif to skyrim's nif.

3. Copy the BsLightingShaderProperty branch on skyrim's nif. Anywhere on your own nif, right click -> block -> paste branch. The branch will appear at the bottom. Take note of the ref id number to the left of the branch (my case its 120).

4. Remove old BSLightingShaderProperty from the nitrishape in your own nif.

5. Click on the nitrishape block, there is(should be) another window with the block. Scroll down to properties. Expand it and click on the first ref tab. Input the ref id of the branch you pasted earlier. Branch will become child of that nitrishape like the old one.

6. Repeat for every nitrishape you have.

7. When get to the femalebody nitrishape, you'll need to grab the BSLightingShaderProperties from whatever particular femalebody.nif you were using, not just some random skyrim armor.

Textures may be dark because each nitrishape may need to have vertex colors set to 'yes', espicailly if you export the meshes without them.

Under each nitrishape, is an Nitrishapedata. In block details, look for Has Vertex Colors, and set to yes.

If the body isn't there, either you forgot to export it, or bsd # is wrong.

Luna_Natsume · April 18, 2012

Okee Dokee... so I took your advice on the Nifscope problem, and I am happy to say it WORKED!!! So thank you for that, in fact my textures are showing up WONDERFULLY!

So I thought to myself, why not eliminate the problem with the body not showing up, by making it part of the armor itself!?! Then people wouldn't have to shape their body like mine, and I wouldn't have to make a _0 AND a _1 version!!!

Annnnnnd... heres what happened:

Here's a nice side view of my epic failure... jeebus why can't I just leave well enough alone? LOL:

Sooo, any ideas what I did wrong here? Weighting problem perhaps... if so, how the HELL do I weight properly? Honestly, these tutorials tell me NOTHING about how to fix problems. They just spit information at you, like a massive loogie right between the eyes. LOL

Endiness · April 18, 2012

Here all the vertex groups the body should. Since your armor moves ok, I would recommend that you import the female body again, and delete the old one. BTW I barely know how to navigate blender.

For copying weights, it seems as thought the meshes you want to copy weights need to not have any vertex group so delete them all.

Click on all the objects you want to copy weights to.

Lastly, select the Body so it will be the active mesh. The active mesh is the the mesh where the weights will get copied from.

Click object tab at the bottom -> Scripts -> Bone weight copy.

click ok with these settings I think.

Omg this takes a long time. Weight only one mesh at a time. So select a mesh, then select the body, then do bone weight copy. After, you meshes should have vertex groups assigned to them.

Luna_Natsume · April 19, 2012

Okay, I'm not even going to upload a screenshot of the latest failure. LOL This is getting rediculous... closer but not quite.

Soooo, I suppose my question is: How do you make sure your body/clothes are properly aligned?

Here's what happened, I finally got all my meshes and textures working. The body shows up and moves like it's supposed to, and all my clothes move too.

Buuuuut...

Now my body is about half a foot too high. There is a small gap between my ankles and feet, and my body floats above where it should be. My shoulders are up to my chin and I have no neck. LOL My clothes are in the right spot, but the body is slightly off.

Thing is, in blender everything lines up perfectly!!!

WHAT IS THE DEAL!?!?! How do you make sure that what your seeing on the screen in blender... translates to what you see in Skyrim?!?

EDIT: So in frustration, I went back to attempting the socks... It has bone groupes in the pelvis and thigh region that I can't seem to duplicate. Blender tells me that I need only one group of bones, but it needs bones from the feet AND main body...

Ugh, then it keeps telling me I have unweighted verticies when I try to export... over and over again.

Seriously, I am about a stones throw away from completely giving up. I have learned SO much over the past week about mods and blender and nifscope, but seriously I just don't know how much more frustration I can take. I haven't been able to successfully finish a single simple resize YET!!!

I am going to take a good long break from modding till I can get some better help, or more patience... whichever comes first. LOL

xiro8877 · April 19, 2012

I haven't been able to successfully finish a single simple resize YET!!!

That's your problem right there....you thought it'd be easy

But really I've been in your shoes. Although most of my problems tend to be in the importing/exporting issue and not so much some of the problems you're having.

Regardless...it's definitely NOT simple by any regard lol.

*JohnHead444* · April 19, 2012

Okay' date=' I'm not even going to upload a screenshot of the latest failure. LOL This is getting rediculous... closer but not quite.

Soooo, I suppose my question is: How do you make sure your body/clothes are properly aligned?

Here's what happened, I finally got all my meshes and textures working. The body shows up and moves like it's supposed to, and all my clothes move too.

Buuuuut...

Now my body is about half a foot too high. There is a small gap between my ankles and feet, and my body floats above where it should be. My shoulders are up to my chin and I have no neck. LOL My clothes are in the right spot, but the body is slightly off.

Thing is, in blender everything lines up perfectly!!!

WHAT IS THE DEAL!?!?! How do you make sure that what your seeing on the screen in blender... translates to what you see in Skyrim?!?

EDIT: So in frustration, I went back to attempting the socks... It has bone groupes in the pelvis and thigh region that I can't seem to duplicate. Blender tells me that I need only one group of bones, but it needs bones from the feet AND main body...

Ugh, then it keeps telling me I have unweighted verticies when I try to export... over and over again.

Seriously, I am about a stones throw away from completely giving up. I have learned SO much over the past week about mods and blender and nifscope, but seriously I just don't know how much more frustration I can take. I haven't been able to successfully finish a single simple resize YET!!!

I am going to take a good long break from modding till I can get some better help, or more patience... whichever comes first. LOL

[/quote']

The body doesn't line up because both the armor and body are using different skeletons. What ever body your using you need to highlight the armor in blender and import the body. Don't have any import option highlighted except for import skeleton only parent to selected. Then use the body nif file to put the armor in and there you go it should line up.

*JohnHead444* · April 19, 2012

Also for the unweighted vertices in the weight menu where you deleted the weight just hit assign. Then un highlight the vertices by hitting A on your key board so there all purple on your key board then export again. Hopefully it go out this time. Hope this helps and don't give up it can be a real pain in the ass getting it down.

Endiness · April 20, 2012

I don't know a whole lot about blender, so I probably shouldn't have been trying to give out as much help as I did. Glad someone who knows blender can help.

Luna_Natsume · April 20, 2012

The body doesn't line up because both the armor and body are using different skeletons. What ever body your using you need to highlight the armor in blender and import the body. Don't have any import option highlighted except for import skeleton only parent to selected. Then use the body nif file to put the armor in and there you go it should line up.

I do that... here's the issue I am having:

Caliente's body that I am using (CBBE with body slide) always imports a few inches in front of the feet' date=' the skeleton too. I have tried deleting it, and rebuilding the body using body slide... but it ALWAYS imports in that position. So I don't know if there is a setting that auto-aligns the feet/hands/body in the right position. I tried MANUALLY putting the body where it goes, but as I said... when I did that the body/feet/hands line up fine in blender, but the body is all goofy when I export it in the game.

GAHHHH! LOL It's enough to drive a guy batty, especially considering how long it takes to do all the workaround adjustments in nifscope just to get the damned thing in the game. I spend 5 minutes in blender, correcting my mistakes... then 20-30 minutes changing the version, assigning textures, changing all the bsshader settings, properties... I mean JEEEEBUS!

Please tell me that when they update nifscripts that it gets infinitely easier to do this... then at least I have some hope. LOL

UPDATE:

OMFG... I finally did it.

Thank FREAKIN GAWD!!!

I finally got the damned stripey socks to work!!!! :D:D

Okay, so it's not a perfect conversion, and the weights are TERRIBLE, and it clips terribly when I walk... but it finally WORKS.

A few lessons learned:

1. When doing the socks, I just imported the parent skeleton from the original socks themselves... giving me the pelvis and thigh bones I couldn't get before. It's not the PREFERED way I realize, but it freakin WORKED.

2. I thought the best way to copy bone weights, was to get them from the original socks... but that resulted in some crazy clipping when I walk. Which taught me the importance of weighting the object CORRECTLY from the body I am using.

3. Even though I have cut corner after corner in an attempt to do what you people do (So much better than I could ever hope to do...) all the screw ups have taught me more than any tutorial could. I can now fly through all the rediculous nifscope crap just by copying all the texture paths and shader info from the original mod.

4. Modding in Skyrim is POSSIBLE... I knew this already, but I was beginning to think that it was IMpossible for ME. LOL

I will definately fix my bone weights and upload a successful version for all to enjoy. Thank you for being PATIENT with me. LOL

*CHEER* :D:D

Firedoom · April 20, 2012

Treager, I just wanted to thank you for having all these problems and asking questions about them. This thread is very educational. Thank you to all of those who offered constructive answers.

Luna_Natsume · April 20, 2012

Treager' date=' I just wanted to thank you for having all these problems and asking questions about them. This thread is very educational. Thank you to all of those who offered constructive answers.

[/quote']

LOL Wow, first time ANYONE thanked me for having problems. Usually people just say "Dude, you have a serious problem" and then walk away. Heehee:D

So another thing I leanred, is clipping happens if you don't use the bone weights from the body your converting too, and the skeleton too.

I tried using the correct bone weights, but the skeleton from the original socks made them clip. So I had to JOIN the skeleton together in blender, and import the whole bloody thing. So after I imported it into Nifscope, I used the 'eliminate bogus nodes' option.

BOOM!!! All the uneeded parts of the skeleton went away. POOF! Like magic.

Then I copied and pasted them in the game and TADA, they work GREAT.

Minor problem, they clipped through pretty much every shoe/boot/footwear I tried to wear them under...

So I did it again, this time just using the leg down to the ankle, and cutting the foot completely off. It works GREAT now! Wont clip through shoes and it's like a second skin so it shouldn't really clip through much... unless it's like super skin tight leather pants or something. LOL

So here are the files:

So it's only for CBBE, slender legs. Basically in body slide, the legs are set to ZERO. It's pretty much as thin as they get... but to be honest, I LIKE long slender legs... so both the 0 and 1 files are exactly the same size.

Just unzip and drop into your data folder, btw it's only a resize, so you still need the original Osares kneesocks for all the textures n' such: Osares Knee Socks

Also... keep in mind that this only changes the regular socks. You will get black/blue/white/stripey/grey... but not the ripped or single left/right socks.

FINALLY... this is also my VERY FIRST MOD. So be gentle. LOL

Luna_Natsume · April 21, 2012

QUESTION!!!!!!!

Okay, so thus far I have done a resize of the socks, the rikku outfit (Works, but I totally messed up the UV maps so I will have to fix them in GIMP), and now I am working on a resize of the JULIET outfit by hentai.

Sooooo, heres the problem:

When I import the original armor, the arms are stretched out at a right angle to the body (90 degrees), but the body I am converting too starts with it's arms at a 45 degree angle. So the bodies don't match at all.

Question: What is the easiest way to line up the arms in blender? Do I have to rebuild the sleeves of the outfit, one vertex at a time... is there a setting that will change the position of the body... is there a better way than selecting the arms and just reshaping the hell out of it? I sure hope so.

Endiness · April 22, 2012

Easiest is to move the skeleton to more t-pose like position.

Select this bones/vertex groups and move them upward until it's straight

Select these 3 together.

NPC L Forearm

NPC L Forearm Twist1

NPC L Forearm Twist2

Select these 3 together.

NPC R Forearm

NPC R Forearm Twist1

NPC R Forearm Twist2

Select these bones/vertex groups and move the backward until they line up straight with the arm.

Select these together

NPC L Hand

NPC L FingerXX (all of them)

Select these together

NPC R Hand

NPC R FingerXX (all of them)

Works well enough

Luna_Natsume · April 23, 2012

Easiest is to move the skeleton to more t-pose like position.

Select this bones/vertex groups and move them upward until it's straight

Select these 3 together.

NPC L Forearm

NPC L Forearm Twist1

NPC L Forearm Twist2

Select these 3 together.

NPC R Forearm

NPC R Forearm Twist1

NPC R Forearm Twist2

Select these bones/vertex groups and move the backward until they line up straight with the arm.

Select these together

NPC L Hand

NPC L FingerXX (all of them)

Select these together

NPC R Hand

NPC R FingerXX (all of them)

Works well enough

Thats great, but I forsee a problem with this solution:

When I import the skeleton as the final step... it wont match up, right?

Also, the clothes are in the t-position, but the body I am using is in the 45 degree angle position. Is there a way to move the sleeves of the shirt down to the 45 degree angle position easily, while preserving the verticies?

Here is the problem I face specifically. I have tried moving groups of verticies downward... but they pinch, and align at odd angles with the arm of my body. It just doesn't match up. I COULD cut the arms of the shirt off... but then I would destroy the UV maps, and I would prefer NOT to do that if possible. Not to mention that I like the shirt with the sleeves in tact as the original mod.

Any suggestions?

Endiness · April 23, 2012

import skeleton as final step???

I really can't explain this well without causing confusion since both body you converting to and the body being converted are using the same skeleton.

Nevermind. Import skeleton + body. Import Juliet outfit without it's skeleton.

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