Bizarre CTD bug - Crashing when trying to save, but only after sleeping to a certain time...

[Oxomoco]

Hi guys, feeling like it's very unlikely anyone can help me with this as it's an absolutely bizarre bug... but it's worth a shot. Maybe someones encountered something similar or perhaps have suggestions for a fix. Sorry if this is long and rambling, but i'm bad at being concise, and i feel the details are important!

 

Basically... as the title suggests, i've just installed Perkus Maximus, after switching over from SkyRe... and my fresh character, who's only level 7, has already encountered a game breaking bug. I managed to level up my SkyRe saves far past level 7 without this issue... i'm not sure whether that's causing this bug, and while i never experienced anything like this before installing PerMa... i can't say for certain that this is the cause.

 

But anyway, i'm at a point where my game will crash whenever i try and save after waking up from sleep, but what's weird is that it seems to happen only at a particular time. Orginally i thought it was to do with a tavern mod i had installed, or the length i was sleeping for... but no. It seems to be related more to the ingame time in this particular save. Here's some background and more details as to what i've tested so far...

 

I first encountered it when entering the Vilemyr Inn, in Ivarstead. After renting a room and staying the night, i kept getting CTDs when trying to leave the Inn in the morning. So i kept trying, and found that not only could i not exit the inn without crashing at the end of the loading screen... but i couldn't even save my game without instantly crashing upon pressing save game. What's weird was that it definitely only after sleeping. If i loaded the autosave from entering the inn, i could enter/exit and save the game as normal. But only until i slept for the night... Then it's CTD central.

 

So i figured the game was corrupted... somehow despite my character being pretty much entirely new. Perhaps some old mod i installed thats now conflicting with the new PerMa mod, which changes A LOT of things. So i reverted to a save from earlier in the in-game day. Instead of going to Ivarstead i went to Riften, and by the time night came again i needed a place to stay. I went to the Bee and Barb and lo and behold, after staying the night, CTDs on trying to save, and CTDs on trying to leave the inn.

 

What's weird is that my character has slept in inns and the thieves guild and whatnot for a few days without any issues... and then suddenly this one in-game day sort of breaks it all...

 

I feel that i can rule out the inns being a problem too. I loaded a save made just before entering the Bee and Barb, and used my 'camping kit'  to drop a bedroll on the ground outside. I found that the CTD sleep and save bug happened even when i was outside using a bedroll. I also initially thought it was only after a long sleep, as i was still able to save after sleeping for 1 or 2 hours. But after some more testing with the bedroll, it seemed that it didn't matter wheter i slept in six lots of 1 hour stints... or one 5 hour sleep and one 1 hour nap... i could sleep and save fine UNTIL it reached 4.00am in game on this one day. And then it crashed.

 

If i load up the save outside the inn and sleep 8 hours up to 3.30am, i can sleep and save as normal. But then add one more hour... and instant crash. I need to do some more testing on this, as frustrating as it is... but it really seems like this is the case... like somehow there's some in-game event, or something related to my character - a quest, an item, a world event - that's breaking my game. I thought perhaps it was because i was saving too quickly after waking up... but nope, i wait 30 seconds and then try and save and same thing happens. I thought perhaps it was something to do with iNeed and waking up hungry/thirsty, but eating and drinking before saving didn't help either.

 

I used the 'coc qasmoke' command to quickly make a totally default character and found that with this blank character i could sleep and save as much as i wanted with no issue. I know it's ridiculous to think, but i even waited with this new character up until the same day at 4.00am... and yet there was no CTDing at all. So it's definitely not a holistic glitch... and explains why i was sleeping and saving fine with my normal character before... but i'm wondering what the hell has caused it to suddenly break at this one particular moment in my save.

 

Absolutely stumped... I feel like there are so many potential variables... i have no idea how to pinpoint it.

 

Any help would be awesome! 

[Alpia]

papyrus log and loadorder is the first thing to upload you will get more people look in in your problem without it how should someone know what happens.

 

For now I have only one other question does it only happen while asleep or also while waiting? this would be intresting to see if this is releated to the sleep itself or just the fact you are jumping in time and pile up scripts that all start running again as soon as you are done with waiting/sleeping.

 

Trying to leave the cell and getting a ctd is a memory problem refering to your expierence when you get a ctd while trying to get out of the inn. Before I make more guess I would like to see the 2 requested files.

[Oxomoco]

Hey thanks for the reply! I'm away for the weekend but i'll upload these files ASAP when i get back. I know my load order is a complete mess, but i've never thought to check the papyrus logs.

 

As for waiting, i didn't do as much extensive testing as i did with sleeping, but from what i experienced - waiting didn't cause any crashes. I could reliably cause a crash by sleeping to and past this certain time, but i could actually wait past it and save no problem.

 

I'll try do some more testing as soon as i can and upload the requested files!

 

Thanks for taking the time to try and help

[Alpia]

if your loadorder is a mess and you know it you should have informed yourself a bit you should use LOOT its a little program that sorts your loadorder.

So the problem is something in your sleep and not just the load that comes with jumping in time which could have been the problem, but well when its something especially releated to sleep I wait for the files maybe they tell us more.

Also try it after using loot if you say your loadorder is a mess maybe its allready fixed when it is not a mess anymore.

[Oxomoco]

I do use LOOT! I just rely on it completely... and i wonder how accurate it can be. Maybe it's fine, but I'm sure a few mods could be optimised. When i was thinking of my messy load order, i was thinking more about my 'modlist' and all my data/textures/animations etc, as opposed to the .esp and .esm plugins.

 

Here's my Modwatch modlist and what not. Make of that what you will...

 

I just did a very brief test, and it seems that waiting did cause my game to CTD when trying to save too. I load up the save, which is at like 11.30pm in game, waited 6 hours and got insta-crash on trying to save afterwards. Exactly the same as the sleep bug. Can confirm that this sleep/save bug is happening consitently once i wait/sleep past 4.00am. If i sleep to 3.40am, i can save fine, but one extra hour and it's CTD every time. 

 

As for my Papyrus log.. i'm not sure i've done it right or perhaps my game is more broken than i thought. I enabled logging... but instead of a few lines of text all neatly displayed... i get a vast block of text filled with hundreds of warnings... this and that can't be initialized and scripts no longer containing property. Not sure if this is normal or not...

 

Well, i don't know what part to select. So i'll just upload the file here. This is fresh file from running SKSE, loading save game, sleeping 6 hours, waking up and trying to save, CTD.

 

Hope you can help!

 

Papyrus.0.log - CTD from sleeping.

 

(CTD from Waiting)Papyrus.0.log - CTD from waiting.

 

EDIT: and one for luck:

 

Here's the log from a CTD i keep getting when trying to load my saves from the main menu. I thought i fixed it by resetting both my INI files to default... but apparently not as i'm getting multiple crashes in a row again. I was using the 'COC' work around, to travel to cell first then load my game, which seems to work... but it's kind of annoying. BTW this log is from a different save from the one i've been using to test the wait/sleep/save bug. It'll complete the loading screen, and even load up the world and characters for a split second before i get a crash to desktop. Let me know if you can decipher any glaring issues in any of these... something's clearly broken but i'll be damned if i can work out what... Anyway, thanks a lot for your help man.

 

(CTDonLoad)Papyrus.0.log

[mybrainhurts]

Have you read the mod's support page over on Nexus? It is recommended to use that mod on a new game only. As you said, your problems started when you installed it on an existing save but there are no problems when you installed it on a new game. So here you have posted your problem and its solution in the same post?

 

Q: Do I need a new game for this?
A: Yes. It's theoretically possible to use old saves, but I don't encourage this, and won't help you doing it.

[Oxomoco]

Have you read the mod's support page over on Nexus? It is recommended to use that mod on a new game only. As you said, your problems started when you installed it on an existing save but there are no problems when you installed it on a new game. So here you have posted your problem and its solution in the same post?

 

Q: Do I need a new game for this?

A: Yes. It's theoretically possible to use old saves, but I don't encourage this, and won't help you doing it.

 

Ah, maybe i phrased that wrong, but i did indeed start a new game with PerMa. And i have read the PerMa documentation and support page extensively.

 

That's why this is even more confusing, all these CTDs are from a pretty much brand new character. And yet my previous characters that used SkyRe seemed to have a lot more stability, and i certainly never encountered a bug as game breaking as this sleep/save glitch. That said, i can't necessarily blame PerMa for any of the crashes or anything, but there certainly could be an issue that has some sort of SkyRe patch or something that i forgot about/can't disable without reinstalling. Problem is, it's been so long since i installed so many of the mods, i have no idea which, if any, had SkyRe patches or options that i haven't already disabled in the plugins list.

[mybrainhurts]

 

<...> there certainly could be an issue that has some sort of SkyRe patch or something that i forgot about/can't disable without reinstalling. Problem is, it's been so long since i installed so many of the mods, i have no idea which, if any, had SkyRe patches or options that i haven't already disabled in the plugins list.

 

You have identified another problem and also its solution. You're very good at that. Look, your papyrus logs show that your game is a wreck, and on top of that you want to install something like PerMa? You could try a utility like savegame script scalpel on your save and maybe that will work. But if it doesn't, if I was in your shoes, I would just bite the bullet, uninstall my mods, start a new game, and then start reinstalling mods.

[Oxomoco]

Haha yeah, they do seem to be a complete bloody mess... i was kind of hoping that was normal  I may be alright at vaguely identifying a problem and solution... but i can't for the life of me actually seem to solve any...

 

I'm not really sure how to interpret the papyrus log, but it seems these errors are for a whole bunch of mods, isn't there a high chance that even if did a complete fresh install of everything, there could still be the same issues? I know it's a lot to ask, but other than simply being a total wreck, can you or anyone with more experience even give me a rough breakdown of what the hell is happening in my papyrus logs? Or are they just simply so broken that it may be beyond that....

 

I dread the thought of it, but i think you're right. I've been playing with the idea of doing a complete new install of all my mods. It could solve everything... but then again i could end up exactly where i'm at now or with even more issues from trying to install so many mods again at once. I fear there may be some incompatibility within my mods regardless of SkyRe patches and all that. I'll check out the savegame script scalpel first though, thanks for that suggestion. I've been using this Save Tool which appears to do a similar thing, but maybe not as deep. Can confirm that there aren't any orphaned scripts or script instances or anything on my saves mind you.

 

edit. Also, would you happen to have a link to a good guide of what order to install mods in? Assuming that this isn't easily fixed, then i probably will get round to doing a complete fresh install. My current mod list is a result of months of adding and removing mods... it clearly isn't stable, but i'm pretty nervous about trying to install the same mods but in a short time period.

[Oxomoco]

Welp. Save Tool still says i have 0 script instances and all that, but i gave Save Scalpel a whirl and i got some potentially useful information. This was using my latest save and the papyrus log from getting a CTD right after loading up my save directly from the main menu. If anyone can help me make sense of what the analysis is saying in practical terms, and a way to act on what it says, then i'll be eternally grateful!

 

 

[Alpia]

Well as far as I know I have allready seen you in a thread about that "on loading" ctd its a common thing this happens to EVERY user that uses script heavy mods regardless what installer you use or whatever you also don't need to use some command just start a new game and save. Whenever you want to start your game you load the previously saved new game before loading your actual savegame its not annoying if you just to it every time its a normal thing for you. (AGAIN there is no other way deleting ini files etc. is just nonsense)

 

Your papyrus.log is also no mess there are mods that are well known for log spaming like estrus, get shelter and many other that hast something to do with the mod itself and a new game won't help a Error in your papyrus log is no drama as allready said its just normal not all errors are real errors papyrus will log whatever it dosen't understand but that dosent mean it is an actual error so far for this topic.

Reinstalling all mods is just stupid the scripts are saved in the savegame thats why reinstalling skyrim or reinstalling all mods will never help with something like that. Reinstalling mods only helps when you installed something wrong and even there its enough to just reinstall what you chanced before it stoped working makes no sense to to something else.

 

For your sleeping ctd thing I don't see any errors with mods in your log that create such a issue tough your log is a mess and you might consider get rid of the spaming mods.

I would say its simply the jump in time and the scripts you pile up while sleeping, but as allready said I can't see any error

 

If you say yourself you encountered this error when switching to this maximus mod try deinstalling make a new game and see if this error still presists as I said it might be just to much load when you jump in time or some mod creates problems due the jump.

For your loadorder if you use Loot your loadorder is just perfectly fine only someone really paranoid would sort 250 mods per hand.

 

 

Edit: From what you said you switched from skyre and started a new character? this is as you sure know really neccesary you can't use an savegame where you deinstalled basic game mechanics like with skyre and such mods

Edit2

 

sn't there a high chance that even if did a complete fresh install of everything, there could still be the same issues?

The errors in your log will appear again the mods in your log are well known for these spams and everyone who uses them has them in their log.

[mybrainhurts]

Well, there you have it. A 358 kb papyrus log after 70 seconds of playing is just fine. Your logs are all nice and clean, you just need to delete the mods that generate a lot of output.   My last log was 322 kb after 4 hours of playing, if you're interested in a rough benchmark.

 

 

 

isn't there a high chance that even if did a complete fresh install of everything, there could still be the same issues?

 

No, there is not - assuming you uninstall and reinstall mods correctly. The "issue" isn't chatty mods it's a game that's FUBAR because you installed PerMa on an old game. That's the bottom line.

[Alpia]

 

No, there is not - assuming you uninstall and reinstall mods correctly. The "issue" isn't chatty mods it's a game that's FUBAR because you installed PerMa on an old game. That's the bottom line.

The log is not just that big because of PerMa the spam is what makes the log that big and the biggest spam is from these mods

95% of this log consist of Getshelter spam and Weaponrack spam from getshelter I can tell you you will also see this on a new game this mod is known for its spam I don't know what this weapon rack mod is, but its most likley the same for it only way to get rid of the spam is uninstalling these mods completly, but again a big papyrus log is no indicator for something messy.

 

I have logs with 8mb+ of course the longer you play the bigger the log is, but its 99.9% estrus+ messages this mod is as get shelter known for its spam, but its no big deal. Since you have performance issues you can try getting rid of the spaming mods, but I personally doubt this will help you but well worth a try. I still recommand getting rid of Percus Maximus since you encountered the issue after installing it.

 

In your case only working thing is trial and error starting with the most obvious thing Percus Maximus make a new game try if the issue consits if yes get rid of log spaming mods they cost capacity that can be used somewhere else and see again if it works.

 

Tools like savegame cleaners are mostly useless I constantly update install deinstall mods with nearly no leftover scripts in the savegames

[Oxomoco]

Thanks both Chasm and Brainhurts, despite the conflicting advice!

 

When you say 'installed PerMa on an old game', you mean old game as in mods installed from when i was using SkyRe? Because if i didn't clarify it well enough, i'm definitely not trying to play any old saves with PerMa. I think some old mods, with options that i selected in the Fomod screens and have now forgotten about, could well be causing issues, but i just have no idea which. I believe that reinstalling these few mods may help, but i'm kind of inclined to believe Chasm when they say that simply reinstalling all my mods won't help. I might try with all the big gameplay mods at least, but leave all my textures, animations, bug fixes and sexlab mods and what not.

 

As for PerMa being an issue, i have mixed feelings about this. I was getting the load game>CTD problem a lot before, when i was using SkyRe, so that's certainly not new. While this sleep/wait>save CTD issue may be new... it's still hard to pinpoint. As i mentioned, i tried starting more new test characters with PerMa to see if it affected them too... and so far, there's been no sign of it. It may suddenly appear later in a playthrough like it did with my character that first experienced this bug. But it seems to me that even though it first cropped up after installing PerMa... it may not be intrinsically linked to it. More likely some leftover conflict from 1 or 2 mods with fomod options for SkyRe or something that i've now forgotten about... I believe i unchecked all .esps that explicitly mentioned being a SkyRe patch, but perhaps one slipped me by or isn't as clear in it's naming. I'm hoping that this is more of the cause of such instabilities than PerMa itself.

 

Still, i'll try disable it along with a bunch of other mods, and reinstall some big gameplay changers. See where that gets me. But i really don't want to get rid of PerMa permanently, i've been looking forward to it for too long. I'd rather try a fresh install of a lot of mods - even if it is totally futile and a waste of time - if theres a small chance it could improve stability and eliminate old conflicting files. But i think Chasms right, a lot of this spam does seem to just be bundled with some of these mods and not necessarily harmful dare i say it. If deleted and reinstalled the same mods again, surely the spam would come back just the same.

 

Regardless, i'd rather not have so much spammity spam. So do you have any other recommendations of which mods to delete, particularly those that are spamming my Papyrus logs? Or any generally known to be unstable mods that you noticed in my load order? I think i can easily live without Real Shelter, which seems to a big culprit. Do i see a lot of spam from Lovers Comfort in there? I think i could live without that pretty well too. If i can identify whatever's giving me this weapon rack spam, that can probably go too.

 

Really appreciate all the help guys.

[Alpia]

If you want to get rid of spaming mods look trough your papyrus log and see if mods are posting a huge amount of the same messages you don't have to delete a mod just for bringing up a few messages one mod I would defenetly get rid of or look for an alternative is this getshelter thingy guess its for frostfall don't know if its needed like I said your log consists of 95% this one single message from get shelter.

P.S. again spamy mods are not an issue, but they might cost performance that might be needed elsewhere so its kinda up to you if you don't have any performance problems I would keep them unless you don't need them anyway then get rid of them.

 

Also don't get me wrong when I say reinstalling mods won't help, but keep in mind the script states are saved in your savegame so if you uninstall a mod and reinstall the same mod the mod starts at the state that is saved in your savegame so if you have a error from a mod in your savegame it will stay there even if you reinstall your mods. In such a case when you reinstall mods you must start a new game or you just continue the state of scripts saved in your game.

 

If I would be you I would still try to deinstall PerMa and see if the error still persist just to see if the mod was the actual cause for it you can reinstall it after trying it out, but that is up to you. If you have any mods that have skyre patches I doubt they are the cause, but well worth a try if you want to go trough the hassle and see what mods have skyre compability patches.

 

The more I think about the more the less I can think of anything that is the one solution that solves it. Do you use Shensons memory patch? If not please if you can install http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/50471/?memoryblockslog and provide the log that would be great.

 

Edit: seriouly please install the linked mod I think it might be memory releated would explain why you ctd when you get out of an inn etc.

Edit2: The memoryblockslog should include a situation where you waited and ctd because of that

[Oxomoco]

Awesome, thanks, i'll check that out, i won't be able to install until tomorrow evening or Tuesday probably, but i'll report back with my findings then!

 

I believe i have a line in my SKSE ini about giving my first born to Sheson... but i never installed that particular file that you linked. Not sure if that was an entirely different fix for something, but i most likely didn't do it right.

 

I'll try disabling PerMa in my MO profile and see where that gets me. I have a feeling that i won't even be able to load up my save game with the sleep/save issues though once i disable PerMa. Will see though. Even now, with PerMa installed, i can start a new character and not have any issues with sleeping and waiting and saving... at least for now seems, it could always pop up later. Even though i started my currently broken character after installing PerMa, something within that one particular character has become very broken despite having barely made any progress. This bug seems impossible to replicate on other characters... I'm also going to try waiting 31 days in game, and see if i can save after that. Might be a cheap workaround if that works, although it may be just ignoring some core problem/incompatibility with my mod list.

 

If none of those options work, i'm going to try and reinstall some mods to try and fix any hidden SkyRe patches.

 

That get shelter spam i assume is from a mod i installed fairly recently when i decided to start using Frostfall. I'm happy to remove it, but i wonder if i can remove such a mod in the middle of a play through? I'm guessing it's not recommended. Anyway, aside from all the papyrus spam, i'm pretty sure that it's not even working correctly, or i installed it wrong, as i definitely seem to be seeing rain falling through the roof even when under shelter.

 

Also do you happen to know if all the Sexlab mods i currently have installed are 'safe' and won't cause stability issues? I think some may be outdated with the 1.59c version of Sexlab, but as long as they're not actually harmful, i'd like to keep them. The ones i'm currently using are Lovers Comfort, Aroused, Romance, Lovers Victim (+ patch from forum member), Cumshot, Lovers Hook (+ patch from forum member), Defeat - all as up to date as possible.

 

edit. NVM about uninstalling Real Shelter, assuming that's where the spams coming from, seems to be a fairly safe and simple uninstall.

[Alpia]

 

Also do you happen to know if all the Sexlab mods i currently have installed are 'safe' and won't cause stability issues?

I have pretty much every mod here on loverslab installed the only one having problems with sexlab 1.59c is submit, but even for this there is allready a fix. For stability well every mod you install impacts on stability some more some less depends on the amount of scripts and if they are done properly.

The mod I linked you is no actual fix its a log that logs the size of skyrims memory block skyrim crashes when you reach the limit of said block you crash. I just wonder why you crash instant when you are outside, but you wake up in the inn and only crash when you try to go out so it might be that your block gets overloaded when you go outside but I'm honestly not sure if this could be, but well dosent hurt to take a look.

 

 

NVM about uninstalling Real Shelter, assuming that's where the spams coming from

It is this mod its well known for its spam some report performance issues with it others don't

 

What is when you load a game before this error occured can you sleep then or are you also crashing?

 

Well report back when you try'd the stuff gl