I've a request to mod authors in general.

[Monsto Brukes]

I have a request for mod authors. But first, some background:

 

Back in the 80s, I learned the long way how to RTFM. My first foray into computer tech etc was working in the self-instruction comptuer lab at university. I had to be able to answer questions ranging from "why won't it print?" to "why won't it compile?" In those days, it was very clear the vendors that intended for users to be able to learn themselves how to use their products. 

 

IBM had, hands down, the best manuals. Here's the command, here's what it does, here's an example, here's how it works. Done. I mean they seriously spent significant resources writing their manuals. And when the user thought there was a software problem, and I was the guy that had to call our rep to see what the deal was, the first thing I'd get from that office was "what does the doc say?" and usually it'd only take a couple minutes (with them in my ear) deciphering the page. After a couple months I didn't have to call at all.

 

Now i'm not trying to say "i know technology" . . . I'm trying to say that I know how to (and do) follow directions, and I can usually figure things out. 

 

The problem is that some users don't do that. Not can't do it... they don't. They want the result but generally are too impatient to take the time to read and follow all the directions. If the directions are as simple as making Kool-Aid, they'll do it. But the general users perception threshold between what is easy and overly complex is reeeally small.

 

(For example, I saw this with HDT Physics install instructions. Reducing install steps from 8 to 7 noticeably reduced the "HALP!!1" posts. The content of the instructions didn't change... all I did was make one step into a sub-item of another step. But suddenly people were reading it completely because it fit on one screen page and appeared less complex.)

 

Consequently, modders get a steady stream of repetitive questions that are already answered by documentation. Happens multi-daily. "that question is not only answered in the docs I wrote, but it also sits on the front page of the forum 2 other times right now."

 

Therefore -- and here's the discovery -- It's easy for an author to quickly skim a post and then pre-categorize it and the user . . . which is to say that they will fall prey to the same thing that some users are guilty of: Incomplete comprehension.

 

 

So I have a request for mod authors:

Occasionally a user will actually be savvy enough to have actually followed the instructions and done some homework. They will post in detail, sometimes with links. Please take a moment to try and identify these users and understand what they're trying to say.

[Rayblue]

Unfortunately, not all mod authors have a computer software development background, are schooled in writing technical documentation and/or able to explain clearly how this works and why; not knowing their intended audience (and the generally low level of technical understanding) is that this audience might not be able to figure out how to install and use the author's mods.

 

Which is why modding is no joke and "plug-and-play".

[sweforce]

This problem is as old as humanity itself. There is a shasm between those that want to do something and those that know how to do it. Then on rare occasions some people pops up that know both. A friend of mine used to have the unique knowledge of programming and tax law. When he quit his job developing a tax program the company had to end that product due to it being much of a nich program to have more then one person working on it.

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

I do this.

[Guest]

I hate asking for guidance, it's very rare for me to, and when I do it's because I've literally exhausted all other lines of enquiry, several times over probably. * The number of times I've asked for help here in this forum can probably be counted on one hand.

 

For starters I'm an impatient bitch, I want to fix my problem NOW, not at some later time convenient to someone else. But mostly, I find that if I have to ask someone else then I haven't learned for myself,  and I find that a frustrating and sort of empty handed experience.

 

Lots of people aren't as pathologically averse to asking for help as I am, but they're every bit as impatient, and they grab all of the attention all of the time, like the naughtiest kids in a crowded classroom monopolizing what little time an overworked tutor has to spare. 

 

What REALLY bugs me about that is that they make it all but impossible for people like me to ask our rare questions and not be treated like the rest of the horde, we self help doozers get slapped down with the same often furious force by mod authors whos nerves are understandably shredded from having to deal with willfully daft people all day long. 

 

So I support what you're proposing Monsto, and I'd also ask all mod authors to spare just a bit of  thought for those among us who would rather do anything other than come to you for help. It's as painful for us as it is for you, believe me. 

 

Let me put it this way - if we're asking for help it might well be because your guide isn't as terrific as you think it is, or the process you think is straightforward really isn't. And that might clue you in to why you're doing a shitload more legwork than you were expecting to have to do. Sure, cater to the lowest common denominator by all means, but don't forget to ask yourself "is it really as crystal clear as I think it is?" from time to time. Familiarity genuinely does often breed contempt

 

* actually one of those rare times I was told to "send Monsto a PM" - the fact that you never received one kind of illustrates my point. 

[Androktone]

Beastie: well said, well... well written. I'm with you on this, sis.

[Monsto Brukes]

 

Let me put it this way - if we're asking for help it might well be because your guide isn't as terrific as you think it is, or the process you think is straightforward really isn't. And that might clue you in to why you're doing a shitload more legwork than you were expecting to have to do. Sure, cater to the lowest common denominator by all means, but don't forget to ask yourself "is it really as crystal clear as I think it is?" from time to time. Familiarity genuinely does often breed contempt

 

* actually one of those rare times I was told to "send Monsto a PM" - the fact that you never received one kind of illustrates my point. 

 

First of all, I have no pm from you in my box. 2nd of all, it's been said specifically, and it's pretty much a given rule, it's a bad idea to PM one when a forum post gets in the face of many.

 

For the thread, that which I hilited yellow and red are exactly the reasons why I wrote, read, wrote, read, rewrote, reread, edited, rerewrote reedited, ad-nauseum, all of the HDT docs that I put up. I wrote them as specific and clearly as possible because of my horrible experiences with shitty shitty docs and egos about "ur dum" when i can't understand the shitty shitty docs. I've actually had a couple posts over there that got zero response... not from lack of interest, but because there was nothing to add and no questions about the process.

 

bottom line: Bad docs create support time. You can either spend the time writing effective docs, or you can spend the time answering the same questions over and over.

[gregathit]

Or you can write effective docs which no one bothers to read and spend your time answering the same questions over and over.  What is the point?  As a spoof, one mod author here posted a mod that was very easy to install, but had a lengthy explanation of what the mod actually did.  Had anyone actually read the explanation they would have found where the mod author stated point blank that the mod will fuck up your game and that you should not install the mod........EVER.  Tech support threads blew up the moment the mod was released and not one fucking post referenced why someone would offer up a mod that fucked up your game.......

 

I pushed out a new version of Lovers (with a shit load of help from my awesome fellow modders) and reduced the installation steps down to a monkey with a keyboard can do this level, and still there are issues.  Why?  Because folks won't bother to fucking read shit.  Waste as much time as you wish dumbing things down, it won't make a bit of difference. 

 

Hell, 90% of folks refuse to read pinned threads in the tech support section that state "don't fucking post unless you read this....this means YOU".  

 

My 2 cents worth.....and no, I'm not bitter about it.  

[Monsto Brukes]

Or you can write effective docs which no one bothers to read and spend your time answering the same questions over and over.

 

Sure, that happens. . . but at that point you can make an example of them and they have zero to say about it. 

 

"Point 5 of the install doc says exactly what you just asked. RTFM, fool."

 

Even so, in the year or whatever of HDT, i've only had to do that a couple times that I can remember. So yeah, I'd rather write up all the docs necessary, once, and then basically have License To Kill whenever that particular moron asks his ignorant question. And the crucified bodies on the path

[Guest]

 

 

Let me put it this way - if we're asking for help it might well be because your guide isn't as terrific as you think it is, or the process you think is straightforward really isn't. And that might clue you in to why you're doing a shitload more legwork than you were expecting to have to do. Sure, cater to the lowest common denominator by all means, but don't forget to ask yourself "is it really as crystal clear as I think it is?" from time to time. Familiarity genuinely does often breed contempt

 

* actually one of those rare times I was told to "send Monsto a PM" - the fact that you never received one kind of illustrates my point. 

 

First of all, I have no pm from you in my box. 2nd of all, it's been said specifically, and it's pretty much a given rule, it's a bad idea to PM one when a forum post gets in the face of many.

 

For the thread, that which I hilited yellow and red are exactly the reasons why I wrote, read, wrote, read, rewrote, reread, edited, rerewrote reedited, ad-nauseum, all of the HDT docs that I put up. I wrote them as specific and clearly as possible because of my horrible experiences with shitty shitty docs and egos about "ur dum" when i can't understand the shitty shitty docs. I've actually had a couple posts over there that got zero response... not from lack of interest, but because there was nothing to add and no questions about the process.

 

bottom line: Bad docs create support time. You can either spend the time writing effective docs, or you can spend the time answering the same questions over and over.

 

Well no, I didn't PM you that was the point -the mod authors response to me was "PM Monsto". I wouldn't have done that because I instinctively know it's not the way I want to go. Anybody who's ever been on the end of a frantic google dash to find solutions to seemingly insoluble problems will be aware how important it is to leave a bread crumb trail for others to follow.

 

You're spot on about good quality docs. A good example might be Forgotten Magic Redone - not the most complicated of mods, but they still get a barrage of daft questions. But they've covered themselves with a pretty comprehensive FAQ and will happy slap folk all day long with "read the description" - it really is the nuclear option. 

 

gregathit is also right, many people don't like to read a generalised guide, they want to be treated as special cases. But then not all guidance is made equal, I've seen mod instructions that are so impenetrably worded and poorly laid out that you'd think they were trying to describe a moon landing. Some people will always avoid having to do at least some of their own legwork, that's just how it is. How much that's tolerated is going to vary from one community to the next. Here for example, people are quite patient but barefaced laziness does tend to get kicked into the long grass

 

edit: oh, and it occurs to me you thought I was directing

 

" it might well be because your guide isn't as terrific as you think it is" 

 

at you. That was just a generalised comment in support of what you'd said at the top about the importance of good quality docs. 

 

[Ailsa]

I admit that I am lazy in some ways.  I read the documents that come with an interesting mod at least 3 times, sometimes more if it is really really interesting.  If after that I still am not clear on the installation I DON'T use the mod.   With the very interesting ones I follow the thread and sometimes gain clarity from the assistance that others receive.   

 

I really do not like asking questions too often particularly in view of the fact that modders have put hours and hours of work into their creations and all I really want to be able to say is thank you 

[Coopervane]

There's only two fixable problems that i see modders make for themselves in their docs, and they are:

 

 

1) Overly technical descriptions. Most modders know their own mod like the back of their hand, since they made the thing, and have earned a solid understanding of Skyrim's systems by having to work with them. But the average user has zero knowledge of what your mod is or how it works, and more likely than not, also clouse to zero knowledge of Skyrim's inner workings (most people are end-users, not programmers or even modders themselves, they are just gamers, they know how to play Skyrim, not how to script in Papyrus).

Put simply, avoid saying "i use function X to start a quest, which puts a cloak spell on Y to activate function Z", because you might aswell be speaking ancient Hebrew. Tell people plainly what it does, or rather, what it should look like in the game when it's working as intended, and you'll have fewer problems.

 

 

2) The "i won't spoil it" falacy. This one comes up extremely often, the modder has put in a mechanic that only activates under certain conditions, and then expects people to discover it. Well here's a hint: THEY ALMOST CERTAINLY WILL NOT!

People are used to the way Skyrim works, and they will interact with the game, and by extension your mod, exactly as they always have unless specificly made aware that they can now do something new and different.

This issen't real life where you could expect anything to happen, this is a videogame, it has systems, and the only things that can happen in it is what has been programmed in there. People know this, and people know Skyrim well enough that they are conditioned to stay within the game's normal boundaries, the only way anyone's discovering a hidden mechanic in your mod is by pure dumb luck, because nobody will be searching for it.

Sorry, but you'll have to spoil it. You don't have to tell people exactly what it is and what precisely happens, but you do need to make people aware that the mechanic exists, and give them atleast a rough idea how to activate it if you want people to play and enjoy it. Skyrim is to old a game now for people to still be trying to test it's boundaries (we all know what they are by heart).

 

 

 

Something to think about

[cadejocr]

As a programer (30 years), see a lot of problems in mods design. They change a lot an create more problems in the process. A framework is something that should change only when a pope die. New features should be put in new functions not re-designing old stuff, because everything will fall apart and version compatibility is important, because this is a game used to have fun and expending hours mod tuning is not fun at all.

 

Modular mods is the way to go. Small mods that do one thing right, example "Death alternative your money or your life". People should endorse this type of mods instead of the mega-mod that try todo everything in one package.

 

[Monsto Brukes]

edit: oh, and it occurs to me you thought I was directing

 

" it might well be because your guide isn't as terrific as you think it is" 

 

at you. That was just a generalised comment in support of what you'd said at the top about the importance of good quality docs. 

 

 

I didn't think that. I saw the point you were making. 

 

As a programer (30 years), see a lot of problems in mods design. They change a lot an create more problems in the process. A framework is something that should change only when a pope die. New features should be put in new functions not re-designing old stuff, because everything will fall apart and version compatibility is important, because this is a game used to have fun and expending hours mod tuning is not fun at all.

 

Modular mods is the way to go. Small mods that do one thing right, example "Death alternative your money or your life". People should endorse this type of mods instead of the mega-mod that try todo everything in one package.

 

With a reliable framework and consistent approach to add-ons, this works well and you are absolutely right. The problemw ith skyrim is that it's not a reliable framework. It's doing so much at any given moment, that even a well designed (code wise) and built mod can behave inconsistently. Therefore, a collection of smaller addons would probably behave differently than if taking a monolithic approach.

 

And that doesn't even take into account the abilites of different modders building add-ons without a dev bible that your collection is trying to be compat with. Which, again, is part of the point here.

[Guest Ragna_Rok]

my mods are superior in that point... mainly gear, and most mods go like: "go to a forge, smith that shit, sharpen, enchant if you like, and go berserk"

 

simplicity rules

[Guest]

my mods are superior in that point... mainly gear, and most mods go like: "go to a forge, smith that shit, sharpen, enchant if you like, and go berserk"

 

simplicity rules

Your mods are brutally awesome. End this discussion already

 

No really, they are..

[Monsto Brukes]

my mods are superior in that point... mainly gear, and most mods go like: "go to a forge, smith that shit, sharpen, enchant if you like, and go berserk"

 

simplicity rules

 

There's a tranquility in simple, don't you think?

[D_ManXX2]

It would only work if the world we live in was a perfect place. But did language barrier not put you on the right track ?? Not all mod authors can write perfect English Because they may have a different first language then English. Or dyslectic etc.. all of these can prevent your first posts.

 

Unless users who complain actually put in the work then send that super doc to mod author i don't really see how this can be prevented.

[zzz72w3r]

As an user I would be very happy if the Instruction/Description page is just kept current.  A lot if not most of the mods here are only updated or instructions clarified in the forum posts and while I do dig through them as much as I can, most people will be daunted by the dozens or even triple digit pages of support discussions.  The problem is that a lot of valuable information are not from the authors so they got buried. 

 

Technical instruction writing is much, much harder than people expect.  There is also the language barrier and that many authors just don't find writing a good README file interesting.

 

Perhaps the board can vest some qualified members to periodically update mod Descriptions regarding its current state of development (abandon, dormant etc) and inquire authors if they can add stuff to the Description page of their mods.  I think this could cut down a lot of unnecessary posts.  As for the me, me, me, now, now now types, they are always around and there is nothing you can do about that without using the hammer.

[sweforce]

A common problem with knowledge is that things that are easy for you and well understood may not be that to others. I have repeatedly found that I know more then most people in some fringe subject and cause confusion when talking about it. It is so easy to believe that something is common knowledge when in fact it is not. Teachers that doesn't understand this are terrible at teaching and end up thinking that heir students are stupid when they doesn't "get it". Then they start all over again explaining one more time with exactly the same approach that failed the first time.

 

Omitting a step in an instruction may break the whole chain. If, in case of mods there is a several step process to installation and you omit to inform of the first one, then the rest of the steps are pointless. Historians struggle with this when they study ancient texts and doesn't get it because the author omitted the then "common knowledge parts". Well it is not common knowledge today and similarly, it is easy to believe that something is "common knowledge" when in fact it is specialist knowledge, it just feels common to the author. A funny example of this is in the Bible, apparently Noah was supposed to make his arc of "gopher tree". Today no one knows what a "gopher tree" is. There are no instructions of how it looks like so if this was an ancient name for a still common tree we cannot know since we cannot identify it.

 

A big trap for mod makers is the fact that if your mod have dependencies on other mods and the author of those are terrible at writing instructions, mod installations may go nowhere. I have at times avoided mods due to an overly complicated process to install an prerequisite mod. Also I really hate it I am forced to register with some obscure download library somewhere just to get access to that prerequisite mod. This can be made worse if the prerequisite mod alter stuff I do not want to alter and are overly huge when I just need the texture and mesh for a single armor or something.

[Guest]

It would only work if the world we live in was a perfect place. But did language barrier not put you on the right track ?? Not all mod authors can write perfect English Because they may have a different first language then English. Or dyslectic etc.. all of these can prevent your first posts.

 

Unless users who complain actually put in the work then send that super doc to mod author i don't really see how this can be prevented.

It's not that you're wrong, there are plenty of mods on Nexus that don't get even a sniff of support and I bet a lot of that is down to a language barrier. But it still strikes me as a defeatist view. 

 

I'd say the language barrier makes the case for good up front documentation stronger, get it done somehow, get it posted on the front page,do that much at least. The alternative is no decent docs, tons of people screaming for support and just not getting any. Any mod in that state ends up looking indistinguishable from abandonware. 

[nooblet123]

Pretty much nobody read the description about how to fix the constant kneeling animation in Sanguine Debauchery on the 1st page so half of the posters in there are asking why is my char kneeling

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/15191-sanguines-debauchery/page-136 search for "kneel" for some laughs