Realism vs Cheat Mods

[Symon]

Look, you can rationalize using overpowered mods all you want.  I never said it shouldn't be allowed, just that it didn't make sense TO ME in a game that's relatively easy.  Seriously, EVERY one of the other TES games was harder than this one.

 

The game puts NPC opponents in front of you though, and there is an end game.  The fact that TES games, like MMOs, let you continue on after the game is beaten doesn't change that Skyrim is "beaten" when Alduin is dead, Dawnguard is beat when Harkon is dead, and Dragonborn is beat when Miraak is Tango Uniform.

 

I'm sorry but you are making assumptions, wrong ones to boot.

I have never even purchased Skyrim, let alone played it. Tes games I've played (and play) are Fallout3, Oblivion and Morrowind.

 

You seem to be saying that Skyrim has no roleplaying, only competition. Fair enough, I have no experience of the game so can't debate you.

FYI, my favorite Morrowind mod is a romance mod, heavily customized.

[Guest Omega1084]

The fact that TES games, like MMOs, let you continue on after the game is beaten doesn't change that Skyrim is "beaten" when Alduin is dead, Dawnguard is beat when Harkon is dead, and Dragonborn is beat when Miraak is Tango Uniform.

No.. that's completely wrong. The same could be said about all other questlines.

The game is beaten after the Dark Brotherhood questline, or the Thieves questline, or the Companions questline, Or the Mages' questline etc.

Open-World games don't just "end" this isn't Devil May Cry.

You have more stuff to do, people to help, more evil to defeat.

People start over and over again for different reasons.

When I restart it's to be someone else. Alternate Start helps with that.

I could be a Stormcloak Thief in one game and be an Imperial Mage who hates the Dark Brotherhood and wants to destroy it the next.

Beating Alduin is just beating Alduin. End of one questline, start of the next.

One does not simply "beat" an open-world RPG the magnitude of Skyrim or Fallout.

[Taskmaster]

I have to agree with Vol2.  I said in my intial post I don't go for total realism myself.  I don't criticize people for playing on any given difficulty level either (unlike some posters apparently).

 

My point / rant was that I don't understand people who just want to walk thru it and not even have their skills tested and grown at all.  Too many mods are designed to do just that.

 

After reading some of your responses toward others after the post I made, I have to ask... do you really agree with what I said?

 

I specifically stated these games to me, are about staying true to your own concept and character in a believable and consistent manner.

 

It is also very subjective... UNLESS dealing with understood and agreed upon archetypes, where their structures can serve as a guideline if your imagination isn't up for the task. Or you could break that rule, too, as nothing is sanctioned unless you want it to be(as no one else is officially involved in your imaginative world and game). 

 

In other words, if my character is going to have x-ray vision, run faster than a speeding bullet and leap tall buildings in a single bound, I need to personally justify that through ingame action that led to this point, as I see fit intrinsically(or even otherwise, if I was telling events to someone else). And for the record my character doesn't, because she can't - even if there are mods and console commands to make it possible - my imagination and idea of my character says "no".

 

It's not much different as to when an author writes a story and creates a character(s). The entire story(of that character) would fall apart, if things didn't make sense or weren't understood on how conclusions to facets of their character were made.

 

The journey, and the exploration - that's what it's all about for me. The challenge is to stay on point and maintain. This is for the roleplay element. Others don't have to care, they can just see the game as a sandbox to screw around with many things within the game to enjoy themselves. Given how the game works, we can do what we want, because there are no rules except for your imagination.

 

Outside of engine limitations, this game is far from rigid. So someone that sees a god mode as cheating, someone else could see it as enriching their gameplay experience. It doesn't really make sense to attempt to force your own belief about what a mod is meant to do on someone else and wonder why.

 

None of us even have the same load order, so there's absolutely no standard or control variable. Certain mods might end up just being on or even below par, while being completely cheat worthy in someone else's game.

 

We aren't playing this game with official rules, and someone else could be playing the game in a completely different way(like just for screen archery, or just for testing mods, or just for being a blacksmith within the world).

[pinky6225]

If we were talking multiplayer games where you compete against other people then i would say no cheats aren't cool but as we are talking single player games i think they do have there place, myself for example i hate most of the gold and inventory management systems that games get since they are generally just artifical time grinds and often don't make sense within the lore...

 

Dragon age origins - i'm a warden thats above the law yet i still need to buy for gold every single item i want from a merchant, have they not heard i'm going to save the world from the awful blight? they should be giving me that stuff or i should be taking it by force but no game mechanics won't allow so i'm off to grind

 

Mass effect 2 - okay new mineral system for upgrades cool but i also need cash for upgrades well i have a lot of minerals and i have no cash what about selling minerals for cash, brillant. Oh wait game mechanics don't allow

 

Skyrim - Cool carts for travelling around well i'm going to a dwarven ruin and that metal is heavy how about taking that cart to the ruin and i could take it all in one go, oh wait game mechanics don't allow so i need to make 10 trips

 

 

In other words, if my character is going to have x-ray vision, run faster than a speeding bullet and leap tall buildings in a single bound, I need to personally justify that through ingame action that led to this point, as I see fit intrinsically(or even otherwise, if I was telling events to someone else). And for the record my character doesn't, because she can't - even if there are mods and console commands to make it possible - my imagination and idea of my character says "no".

 

Considering we have spells to detect undead and living already in skyrim is x-ray vision that far fetched? As to running and leaping again we have magic so magical experimentation by the thalmor to create a super soldier for the next war and i've just given a explaination that isn't far fetched considering the lore yet allows me to have all sorts of abilities

 

 

 

 

 

[Taskmaster]

 

In other words, if my character is going to have x-ray vision, run faster than a speeding bullet and leap tall buildings in a single bound, I need to personally justify that through ingame action that led to this point, as I see fit intrinsically(or even otherwise, if I was telling events to someone else). And for the record my character doesn't, because she can't - even if there are mods and console commands to make it possible - my imagination and idea of my character says "no".

 

Considering we have spells to detect undead and living already in skyrim is x-ray vision that far fetched? As to running and leaping again we have magic so magical experimentation by the thalmor to create a super soldier for the next war and i've just given a explaination that isn't far fetched considering the lore yet allows me to have all sorts of abilities

 

It wasn't really about it being farfetched even in the vanilla world. It's just that that's something my character wouldn't do.

 

In the Apocalypse Spells mod, there's a spell called "Alarm" which plays a sound each for when enemies are near and within a certain radius, that is, if they get within that radius after you've used it. That spell makes more sense to me with how my character plays, as it would just be her hearing "footsteps" or maybe a Bandit smells of mead, or a particular monster type has a stench. Using that Alarm spell would be like my character is being more attentive. 

[Guest Omega1084]

In the Apocalypse Spells mod, there's a spell called "Alarm" which plays a sound each for when enemies are near and within a certain radius, that is, if they get within that radius after you've used it. That spell makes more sense to me with how my character plays, as it would just be her hearing "footsteps" or maybe a Bandit smells of mead, or a particular monster type has a stench. Using that Alarm spell would be like my character is being more attentive.

It also has a spell that lets you materialise bridges in front of you which was really fun to play with. Except when you make one at a weird angle and hop to it then slide off and die because you wanted to go from Winterhold to Throat of the World using them. xD

 

I have tons of different save files for sandbox games.

For Skyrim especially, I have at least 10 different characters going through the game 10 different ways with different mods.

 

In fact, don't kill me for this, but one of them is a Naruto character.

I'm using her mainly to test a mod a friend of mine is working on but I'd be lying if I said it's not fun to set people on [black]fire by glaring at them, which is very OP but fun.

 

Words like "fun" and "realistic" and "cheating" are arbitrary, completely subjective, and due to the immense amounts of mods and customisation options for Skyrim it's possible to get a situation where you're so underpowered that a spell that summons giant meteorites does little to no damage to enemies.

[Insidiator]

 

Words like "fun" and "realistic" and "cheating" are arbitrary, completely subjective

 

Yes, and no. If I open the console and enable god mode in my game, is it cheating? According to the traditional definitions, yes, it is. What is the difference if I make a mod that makes enemies explode when they look at me, or an armor that is impenetrable by anything my opponents have, plus a weapon that instakills everything?  Am I "cheating"? Technically, no. Practically, yes. And it's not wrong, if one wants to see the enviroments or the story of the game. But let's also not pretend it is a regular playthrough.

To be honest, I too do not like "mods" that give the PC a spell that cleanses half of Skyrim of life or somesuch. Just enable godmode already and don't pretend that it is just a mod. But, to each his own.

[Guest Omega1084]

Yes, and no. If I open the console and enable god mode in my game, is it cheating? According to the traditional definitions, yes, it is. What is the difference if I make a mod that makes enemies explode when they look at me, or an armor that is impenetrable by anything my opponents have, plus a weapon that instakills everything?  Am I "cheating"? Technically, no. Practically, yes. And it's not wrong, if one wants to see the enviroments or the story of the game. But let's also not pretend it is a regular playthrough.

To be honest, I too do not like "mods" that give the PC a spell that cleanses half of Skyrim of life or somesuch. Just enable godmode already and don't pretend that it is just a mod. But, to each his own.

Well, I agree with you, mostly, but we're not talking about just enabling things through the console, we're talking about mods that give you tons of powers you can use to give yourself an unfair advantage in the game, which is the definition of cheating, giving yourself an unfair advantage the game cannot overcome.

I have a mod that summons meteorites, it costs 600 magicka at Conjuration 100, takes almost a full 30 seconds to cast and kills me if I don't run away upon summoning. Is it cheating? I think not, it's pretty balanced from my point of view but someone might think it's cheating. Ergo, the arbitrarity of the word "cheating". Using the console to give yourself stats and invincibility is cheating because you're giving yourself an advantage the game can't cope with, whereas simply having somewhat OP spells can still be overcome by the game.

[Cynical Misanthrope]

I like to keep my game as "realistic" as possible (frostfall, RND, and fuck knows what) but also as another user said earlier, my character has 10 fingers, so why can't I use 10 rings? Or earrings/piercings? So I use mods that adds those, and if those can be enchanted, so be it. Same with armor. Few of them have 6-10 pieces, and sometimes they all can be enchanted.

 

I just do it for my own amusement. Skyrim is pretty boring these days (in fact, I don't even play it anymore) so I just try to find a few ways to have fun. Been playing vanilla game and beat a few times. Been playing modded game a few times, and beat it. So, it's all just for having fun.

[Angrybird]

I played the game enough that I don't even want to level anymore and just want to take a look at some mod.

[ratrace]

Ah, well... I remember saying this phrase many years ago, when I was starting on MMOs: you are what you play.

 

There's a logical glitch in that: Let's assume that a role playing game is supposed to make you play a role, and a role by definition of acting is different from what you are in real life, the conclusion would be that you cannot be what you play.

[Guest Omega1084]

Thinking back on it...

Realism in a game about fighting dragons, undead skeletons, otherworldly horrors the likes of Lovecraft lore....

Where is the realism there? Who's to say my character, a master of Conjuration, can't develop a spell that slowly drains the target's life without them noticing and then sucks out their soul regardless of how far you've traveled?

Who's to say she can't also learn drag shooting stars down from the heavens to strike her enemies while she's in an Ethereal form that cannot be hurt?

Alduin can certainly do it, why the floop should the Dragonborn not be able to? :|

[pinky6225]

Thinking back on it...

Realism in a game about fighting dragons, undead skeletons, otherworldly horrors the likes of Lovecraft lore....

Where is the realism there? Who's to say my character, a master of Conjuration, can't develop a spell that slowly drains the target's life without them noticing and then sucks out their soul regardless of how far you've traveled?

Who's to say she can't also learn drag shooting stars down from the heavens to strike her enemies while she's in an Ethereal form that cannot be hurt?

Alduin can certainly do it, why the floop should the Dragonborn not be able to? :|

 

Thats the problem with the realism argument

 

What people actually mean is that they are prepared to accept X amount of totally unrealistic stuff (probably because they haven't thought about it) but X + 1 is totally unforgiveable.

[Guest Mogie56]

Thinking back on it...

Realism in a game about fighting dragons, undead skeletons, otherworldly horrors the likes of Lovecraft lore....

Where is the realism there? Who's to say my character, a master of Conjuration, can't develop a spell that slowly drains the target's life without them noticing and then sucks out their soul regardless of how far you've traveled?

Who's to say she can't also learn drag shooting stars down from the heavens to strike her enemies while she's in an Ethereal form that cannot be hurt?

Alduin can certainly do it, why the floop should the Dragonborn not be able to? :|

 

I am surprised you have not been descended upon by the lore gods, tied to a post and set ablaze for this blasphemy

[Askan Vulrel]

I'm half-and-half on this topic.

Honestly, I always play games with the most realistic version possible to it. I love the challenge, and satisfaction of winning a game like that. Also because I'm a strategist, and I play smart. Rather than playing a game where power is everything, and either I take 30 power attacks to kill, or my enemies do, I like it all equal, and believable. Getting swung at by a greatsword should be like getting swung at by a greatsword, not like a knife cutting through half-melted butter that quickly fills in the gap the cut left. I like playing smart, and getting rewarded for it.

However, there are time that a little overpoweredness just belongs. If you're the DRAGONBORN, you SHOULD be this strong dragon hunter, with the legendary, epic Thu'um. If you kill dragons for a living, a simple bandit should be a piece of cake for you, right?

I mainly play a non-DB Argonian, with a backstory making him a general in the An'Xileel, which is why I mainly play with realism mods. They fit that character. But, if I play my DB character, you can bet that I'm gonna have some mods that make it feel like I am the dragonborn. (Shouting is petty, in my opinion. Without Requiem, it's almost useless to me)

I love Requiem, because it has the ability to be either or. Makes it so I don't have to switch what mods I'm using much when I decide to switch characters.

[Neromak]

I like effect mods like weather, terrain, water, lighting etc.   I'll also grab a set of armor if it looks cool.  I'm not into the cheat mods thing for the simple reason to me if the game it handed to you on a plate then whats the point?   I wanna feel that "Hell YEAH!" rush after defeating a difficult enemy without cheats.

[PsychoMachina]

Videogame realism is subjective.  Some game elements are cheats, but accepted or ignored. 

Do gauntlets and boots offer that much protection that one can survive a devastating blow to the head or a sword to the gut? 

Backpacks and pouches can hold so much items of various sizes even a hoarder would think that's crazy. 

Let's not forget that videogame deaths mean starting from the last save or checkpoint.  Why not be forced to start the game over as a new character (the previous one died; dead is dead).  Now that can be seen as realism.

 

 

[Guest endgameaddiction]

No one would ever beat a game if that happened, unless they went god mode. Now lets see those mega lore/realism fanatics make a mod that does that, and see how popular that becomes.

 

[RunicGray]

I wonder if that would be possible - a mod would have to disable Auto Saves, Quick Saves and Manually Saves. Essentially, that would be a Dead-as-Dead playthrough, as there would be no save points to reference in a restart. But I don't know if mods can adjust those controls at all.

 

 

As for realism vs cheating, I'm not into super immersion like Frostfall and such. I suppose my main game has some borderline mods, such as Ars Metallica, which adjusts the smithing system and makes materials more readily available by smelting unwanted clutter, or Glowing Ore Veins and Glowing Unread Books. Not much more past that. On my "less serious" character saves, I do cheat by buffing my character out like crazy. But that's separate from my main game.

[Cynical Misanthrope]

I wonder if that would be possible - a mod would have to disable Auto Saves, Quick Saves and Manually Saves. Essentially, that would be a Dead-as-Dead playthrough, as there would be no save points to reference in a restart. But I don't know if mods can adjust those controls at all.

 

I have been thinking the same, but the issue with having no save to go back to might not work so well. Game crashing due to mods etc etc

 

[Guest corespore]

I played Skyrim for nearly three years on console (PS3). Which meant, no mods, no updates, no chance of "cheating". After a few thousand hours (no exaggeration) of game-play i still loved Skyrim but i just couldn't play it anymore because i felt like i had done everything there was to do in Skyrim. So, yeah, i mod the hell out of Skyrim. I do in the direction of making it easier in some aspects such as starting i use chests to spawn ingots and leather so i can get my gears built and get to playing. But i also mod it to make it more difficult where it matters, Enhanced Mighty Dragons, NPC AI overhaul, I make sure what i go up against is equal to whatever i can toss at them. 

As long as i enjoy the game that's all that matters to me. I'm not sure if i could consider any if it "cheating" since the only person my modding effects is me. If i felt cheated i'd stop playing.

If i feel I've got to much of an advantage i make the NPC's armor, magic, and AI more durable and quicker. I make sure whatever level i'm at there's always a new and interesting challenge ahead of me and thus i found a new reason to keep playing, and for me that's what really matters. 

The only thing that should matter is whether or not you enjoy the game, and as long as you have a good time then your on the right path.

[Guest Mogie56]

There really isn't any realism in video games. Your character gets slashed with a sword you see blood fly but there is no wound. Your character gets shot at point blank range, blood fly's  but again there is no wound. only death blows yield a gratuitous decapitation or severed arm/leg or as they were known in early fps's "gibs" but for the most part people couldn't handle a no-save start over on death game. it would feel pointless even if it had a wonderful story it would only be told in spurts (death happens). No one really wants to feel the kind of emotional realism that would make them sick to see a character have a hand/arm or leg severed scream in agonizing pain blood spurting with each heart beat or actually see what really happens when they slam there GTA car into a woman with a child in a carriage at a crosswalk.people talk about realism but what they actually want is very limited and safe, no real consequences involved other then the character having to pee or defecate or get digitally hungry. realism in aesthetic looks in graphics only with a hint of good story telling. I doubt many game characters would last more then ten minutes in gameplay if it were "realistic" in nature, death means death not a respawn point and not something you will experience with any character more then once. I doubt a game like that would get much attention other then the initial "lets see how frustrating it is".

And as PsychoMachina pointed out, Video game realism is subjective "a bit of an understatement" but non-the-less very true. It is up to the individual opinion of what "realism" means to them and what type they want in "their" game. but as far as cheat modes go, it was built into the game, has it's own console with commands. debug? really? 

[pinky6225]

There really isn't any realism in video games. Your character gets slashed with a sword you see blood fly but there is no wound. Your character gets shot at point blank range, blood fly's  but again there is no wound. only death blows yield a gratuitous decapitation or severed arm/leg or as they were known in early fps's "gibs" but for the most part people couldn't handle a no-save start over on death game. it would feel pointless even if it had a wonderful story it would only be told in spurts (death happens). No one really wants to feel the kind of emotional realism that would make them sick to see a character have a hand/arm or leg severed scream in agonizing pain blood spurting with each heart beat or actually see what really happens when they slam there GTA car into a woman with a child in a carriage at a crosswalk.people talk about realism but what they actually want is very limited and safe, no real consequences involved other then the character having to pee or defecate or get digitally hungry. realism in aesthetic looks in graphics only with a hint of good story telling. I doubt many game characters would last more then ten minutes in gameplay if it were "realistic" in nature, death means death not a respawn point and not something you will experience with any character more then once. I doubt a game like that would get much attention other then the initial "lets see how frustrating it is".

And as PsychoMachina pointed out, Video game realism is subjective "a bit of an understatement" but non-the-less very true. It is up to the individual opinion of what "realism" means to them and what type they want in "their" game. but as far as cheat modes go, it was built into the game, has it's own console with commands. debug? really? 

 

I think your wrong there dude, peeps would like that level of realism in violent games but they would never get passed by the censors/rating authority so you've never be able to buy it.

 

Take carmeggadon that was about years ago, on the demo version you got to run over humans on the full game everything had been turned into zombies as they couldn't get passed the censor to be on sale.

 

Also lots of games have iron man mode (limited saving points) and even if they don't you know you could use will power to have pretty much the same thing right?

 

 

[Guest Mogie56]

Well I won't argue with you on it, it is only my opinion. LOL Carmeggedon was cartoonish at best but I know the censors went ballistic over it as usual. Don't let kids play cartoonish death games but give them all the Sex, drugs brutality and ignorant "realality shows" that TV can offer. It may not turn them into violent criminals but it sure as hell lowers they're IQ's by a lot and that is a proven fact.

[Guest corespore]

I facepalm everytime someone brings up immersion concerning a TES game. Afterall, talking catmen, flying dragons, magic, vampires, werewolves, and deadric gods. Putting an "immersion" mod in a game with that little basis in reality is like putting a coat of plain paint on a clown-car, in the end it's still a silly thing. I guess if it makes people love the game a little more then i won't fault them for it but that works both ways in that people shouldn't take it personally when we poke fun at their need for game immersion either. Afterall, how many of us dress our Skyrim counterparts in the skimpy "armor" then send them out to face a fire breathing dragon, then you have those other people who will do the exact same thing but say that the crafting or magic system isn't "realistic"