One Last Attempt To Fix Ragdoll Issues

[ShiaNekoChan]

Well, I can't seem to find anything about this on the internet.

 

I'm currently recompiling the animations for nudeshy to smoothly transition into first person (the FPS needs to be set to 60 in blender for them to play at normal speed in first person, just in case anybody wants to know), but I also want to fix the ragdoll issues with the running animations.

 

The main issue seems to be with the pelvis bone. I've made a temporary "death fixer" by script in my mod for now, but I want to fix the animations themselves so they don't create an issue with ragdolls, so I can get rid of that part.

 

I can't find anything on the internet and comparing my animation's pelvis bone transformations in nifskope with another mod's doesn't show anything.

 

So I'm asking other modders here to see if you guys can find anything.

 

It's like the pelvis stays rigid while the rest of the body goes into ragdoll mode.

[kingkong]

i do not have an answear for this      just  some commentaries    -you are not alone complaining about this it is something to do with the skeleton it self  (may be a need of adding more ragdolls ?)    -or it is just an engin probleme (do not forget oblivion is an old game)

-it can be that some bones wants to keep theire positions while the others got a free move (may be a need to make a clean script for death)

[varenne]

Have you taken a look at Realistic Ragdolls and Force v3 SI COMPATIBLE with Extras from D2ks Action Ragdolls-34109.omod and RRSC v04-38427-0-4.zip? (I'm pretty sure I DLed both along with some others from Nexus, almost a year ago, when I was researching this.)

 

The first I extracted from the OMOD file and it has a good amount of documentation in it. The second allows you to convert your target skeleton to a ragdoll compatible one, as I recall and from quickly reviewing the readme file.

 

Maybe these can provide some clues to the rigid pelvis you are experiencing? It's been a long while since I've looked into this myself. I'm also not sure if NifSkope is the best tool to work with on this; fairly limited when it comes to altering physics. Once you start getting into physics Blender is your best bet, but I'm useless when it comes to Blender as I don't have the patience to relearn 3d modeling using it.

[ShiaNekoChan]

So the problem is with the skeleton? That makes sense. When I tried testing with pelvis priority at 0 in my running animation and there was no change.

 

When I type "playgroup fastforward 1" after my character dies, this happens, too. (The pelvis and the shoulders are playing the animation while the rest are not)

 

 

That's disappointing, though. I'm using the most popular and versatile skeleton out there, Growlf's Universal Skeleton (total controllable), which means I have to edit that skeleton if I want to fix this problem. :/

 

edit: For the record, this problem also happens if a character dies during a Lovers sex animation.

 

It seems upon death, a few of the bones (looks like pelvis, spine, and the shoulders) stay stuck in the last frame of the animation they were playing upon death. None of the skeletons I use, including the default one, fix this problem.

 

edit: now that I think about it, it probably has something to do with tails never ragdolling along with the rest of the body...

 

last edit: huh, looking it up on youtube, tails are supposed to ragdoll. I'm getting closer to the problem.

[ShiaNekoChan]

I think I found the problem. It's skeletonbeast.nif.

 

for some strange reason, if I put the totalcontrollable version of the skeletonbeast.nif in my meshes folder, my character ragdolls around unrealistically and the tail is stiff. If I delete skeletonbeast.nif from the folder completely, my character ragdolls more realistically and the tail ragdolls as well.

 

edit: The tail is stiff if you use a tailed character and die using a universal skeleton. This is because somehow the tail does not have ragdoll constraints on it in the universal skeleton.

 

The pelvis and lower part of the spine are also stiff upon death, because the original developers of the game tried to save time (or were just lazy) by not having those bones move much in their animations and not adding ragdoll constraints. I'm not very good at this, but I'm going to try to fix this.

[gregathit]

The trick I think would be to redo those animations to use the universal skeleton.  That should fix the issue.  If you can identify the death animations I might give it a quick whirl to see if I can fix them in blender.

[ShiaNekoChan]

Actually the problem is any animation. Basically, this will happen if the character is playing any animation where the pelvis or lower spine are not at the normal position right before death. So, to get the effect I showed in the screenshot, I would have my character run around in the nudeshy running animation, then type kill in the console while she's doing it.

 

So, to make sure this wasn't just user error, I made a new installation, because I thought maybe something I installed some time ago and forgot about was causing this problem.

 

Then I saw that the tail is stiff upon death again. I figured this problem is closely related to the problem I'm trying to fix right now, so that was a huge clue.

 

I narrowed it down to the skeleton by comparing the default skeletonbeast with growlf's universal skeletonbeast. If you compare them, you see that on Growlf's universal, all of the bones that were copy/pasted have no ragdoll settings at all, which includes the tail and explains why the tail is stiff upon death when using this skeleton. And on the default skeletonbeast, you see that the original developers just plain did not add ragdoll settings to the lower spine and pelvis. I figure the reason why this problem carried over to growlf's skeleton is because he sort of pasted all of the different parts onto the default skeleton.

 

So what needs to happen are, at the very least, ragdoll settings need to be added to the lower spine and skeleton. I'm trying to do that right now, but it'll take me a while, since I don't have much experience with adding physics to things.

 

edit: actually no, I was wrong. The lower spine has a malleableconstraint which is is a different kind of ragdoll contsraint. hmm...

[varenne]

Interesting discussion, and yeah. The formula for Oblivion is Mesh+Skeleton+Animation. Any incompatibilities in anyone contributes to weird and often bizarre outcomes in-game. Took me a while to figure that one out too.

 

I'm now wondering if this contributes to the odd weapon floating in space bug too; lack of physics applied to skeletons, but that's a whole other discussion...

 

Also, have you tried using the skels gregathit put together for Lovers Animated Penis Framework 1.5.7z? I'm curious if this issue exists for this skel as well.

[gregathit]

Most likely it will as I only added penis bones to the universal skeleton.  I'm curious if the death animation itself may be to blame.  I'll look at loading it into blender and take a peek.

[varenne]

Yeah, I'v e not tested the ragdoll effects vs. Nudeshy animations. Is this death animation specific to or different for PCs vs. NPCs?

 

I think the initiating point to start with would be the skeleton, making sure it is enabled with the requisite ragdoll physics (skeleton as actuator on the mesh) , and then the animation to affect the skeleton (actuator on the skeleton), which in turn affects the mesh?

[ShiaNekoChan]

I should emphasize that this issue isn't exclusive to nudeshy. If you die during a sex animation with lovers, the problem happens rather severely there as well (I'm serious, the most disturbing thing that happens is that the pelvis bone seemingly will detach from the body all together and start rolling down a hill.)

 

My script in nudeshy x fixes this by using update3d on an currently dying NPC 10 frames after she is detected to be dead. This resets the pelvis bone in relation to the rest of the skeleton.

 

What's interesting to note is that if you open any of the skeletons in blender, the pelvis bone and the spine are not really even connected. NifSkope will show them connected, but blender shows that they're only connected by a dotted line, meaning the pelvis is a parent of spine1 (or vise versa), but they're not actually connected to each other. I tried fixing it by adding a bone between them in blender, but all of the physics ended up not rigged to their respective bones, so I gave up.

[varenne]

 

 

If you die during a sex animation with lovers, the problem happens rather severely there as well (I'm serious, the most disturbing thing that happens is that the pelvis bone seemingly will detach from the body all together and start rolling down a hill.)

 

That's pretty darn funny, lol! I'm tempted to set it up just to see happen.

[ShiaNekoChan]

I'm summarize everything, since I've sort of documented everything I've learned about this ragdoll issue in a disorganized fashion up until now. Some of this may seem obvious, but I'm just trying to clarify everything since I don't think I explained it clearly until now. Some of this hasn't been discussed in this tread yet.

1. The problem is with the skeleton.

 

2. The problem seems to be with the pelvis bone.

 

3. The pelvis and spine1 bones are seemingly not actually connected by anything, as blender only shows a dotted line between them. (someone with more experience should check this for me)

 

4. I sort of think adding a bone (with either a ragdoll or malleable constraint on it) between pelvis and spine1 might fix this problem.

 

5. the problem is not exclusive to nudeshy, as the same problem comes up when you die during a sex animation with lovers (try dying during a sex animation where the player is on the floor).

 

6. all skeletons use the official one as a base, so nobody has fixed the issue with the pelvis.

 

7. The universal skeletons did not add the ragdoll constraints back onto the tail, resulting in a completely stiff tail upon death, probably because they don't play tailed characters (khajit, argonian, custom races).

 

8. This problem is present on both skeleton.nif and skeletonbeast.nif (it's less apparent on skeleton.nif, because that's used for characters that don't have tails).

 

9. The problem with the skeleton causes the pelvis bone to stay stuck in the last frame of the last animation played, while the rest ragdolls.

 

10. This hasn't been discussed in this thread yet, but when I tried to fix the skeleton by adding a new bone between pelvis and spine1, my character kept playing the running animation while dead (no ragdolls whatsoever, because somehow my attempt caused all of the physics to be detached from their perspective bones, but the death music and camera played as normal).

 

edit: a couple more

 

11. This problem is not the result of a death animation in nudeshy. To get the effect in the screenshot, I typed kill in console while she was running (just the simple nudeshy running animation). It happens with any animation where the pelvis bone is away from the origin position on the skeleton (so if an animation has the character crouch or lie down (like a sex animation in lovers), then this problem will show itself.

 

12. Using update 3d will reset the pelvis' position in relation to the rest of the skeleton. This cannot be done with the player, the player has to be made to play "blockidle,kf" to reset her pelvis bone in relation to her skeleton (probably because it's the closest to the origin position of the bone in the t position on the skeleton, but I haven't checked).

 

13. floating weapon, stiff tail, and this ragdoll issue are all probably closely related, as the weapon and tail have no physics applied to them (in the universal skeletons) and also are probably stuck in the last played frame of the last played animation just like the pelvis (where the problem happens with every single released skeleton, including the default skeleton).

 

I'm now wondering if this contributes to the odd weapon floating in space bug too; lack of physics applied to skeletons, but that's a whole other discussion...

 

It made perfect sense, so I checked and you are right about this. By using a universal skeleton, you are gaining maximum compatibility while actually losing physics functionality.

 

edit: the forums took out all of my formatting. XD

 

 

 

That's pretty darn funny, lol! I'm tempted to set it up just to see happen.

 

It disturbs me so much. XD

[varenne]

Curious. Have you ever experienced a major drop in FPS, potentially followed by a CTD, during in-game testing of this pelvis lockup/mesh issue? Just comparing to my notes on the floating weapon bug, which is present in all skeletons I've ever tested, including the default that comes with Oblivion. This may also indicate either a memory and/or Havok issue as well. I've had prior discussions on this topic in another thread, maybe two. But as far as I know, Havok is NOT being applied to any body parts, at least not meshes. Otherwise when running PyFFI on them it would produce disastrous results.

 

Back to your regularly programmed station...

 

<END TRANSMISSION>

[ShiaNekoChan]

It hasn't crashed at all during my tests, but my tests are very short and are saved so I can quickly see if the problem is fixed or not. About 10-15 seconds per test.

[gregathit]

Plop this into Oblivion\Data\meshes\characters\_male\Idleanims\

See if it helps any.

 

Probably won't help but it is a start to narrow down what animation (or lack thereof) is being played at time of death.  If there is one then I "should" be able to bang a reset feature to keep it from spazzing out.

deathidle.7z

[gregathit]

You might also give these alternate skeletons a try and see if this fixes things.

I used the realistic ragdoll conversion conversion software on the LAPF skeleton (a modified version of the universal skelly).  Maybe this will do the trick.

 

Make a backup before installing any of this!!!!!!!!

skeletons.7z

[varenne]

@ gregathit

 

Yeah, I was just waiting to see what you discovered.

 

@ ShiaNekoChan

 

I have a sort of minor clothing MOD compendium I'm about to publish and then I may contribute some time to this as well, simply because it intrigues me. But I'll have to alter my current build quite a bit, so please do keep me posted on what either of you discover over the next couple of days and going forward too.

[varenne]

You might also give these alternate skeletons a try and see if this fixes things.

I used the realistic ragdoll conversion conversion software on the LAPF skeleton (a modified version of the universal skelly).  Maybe this will do the trick.

 

Make a backup before installing any of this!!!!!!!!

 

I'm almost certain you and I worked on a prior verision of this in the past, and they are LAPF skels. (I'll double check in the morning) I do know for a fact I have ragdoll physics in play in my current build as I often leave my victims in compromised positions when I'm done with them.

 

I just haven't explored any Lovers animations (or any others for that matter) leading to death scenarios, where this seems to occur, mostly because my PC rarely ever dies, and two, she has two Tameriel wandering companions that would immediately rez her once a day if she ever did.

 

[d4nt320]

physics is good but it only lasts a while. like when I install a mod of physical movements. when my character started walking or running, everything was fine but suddenly everything changed when my character started running and then stopped running my character started skating across the floor as if on a snowy track.

 

this is just a maybe you need to removed the ragdolls physics.

[ShiaNekoChan]

You might also give these alternate skeletons a try and see if this fixes things.

I used the realistic ragdoll conversion conversion software on the LAPF skeleton (a modified version of the universal skelly).  Maybe this will do the trick.

 

Make a backup before installing any of this!!!!!!!!

 

 I just tried both of your suggestions and the problem is still there.

 

Let me give some screenshots and graphics that show why I think the problem is the lack of a bone between the pelvis and spine bones. Since this same problem is present in every single released skeleton so far, I used the default skeleton for lack of clutter.

 

 

(just to be clear, the legs are not connected to the pelvis. There is a thin line that happens to be there which looks like it connects the leg with the pelvis area, but that's actually a graphic inserted by blender to represent xyz axis of that joint.)

 

 

edit:

 

While I'm at it...

 

this shows clearly the lack of physics due to the original maximum compatibility skeleton developer copy/pasting the tail from skeletonbeast.nif onto skeleton.nif

 

The skeleton without the physics is the one attached earlier in this thread, the output of using the LAPF skeleton with ragdoll conversion software, and the one with physics is the default.

 

 

 

one more edit:

 

This graphic just shows what I'm talking about for the position of the pelvis in the running animation and where it gets stuck in relation to the skeleton t-pose.

 

I loaded the skeleton without an animation (t-pose) and the skeleton with the nudeshy running animation that sticks the pelvis where it shouldn't be (the one that's leaning forward)

 

 

Compare its position to the strange pelvis position in the ragdoll in the second graphic.

[gregathit]

Bones not being connected can't be the issue as there are lots of cases of this.  The arms aren't connected to the spine, the breasts aren't either.  There is something more going on here.

 

The pelvis isn't the issue at all.  You can see this in blender.  If you move the pelvis the entire skeleton and mesh moves.  The problem appears to be the legs.  More specifically the upper leg bones.  At least from what I can tell playing around with it in blender.

[ShiaNekoChan]

I still think it's suspicious how the entire pelvis area will just roll away in the worst cases... but if you played with it in blender, then I guess the problem is with the thigh bones.

 

How do you suppose this problem might be fixed? Will adding a solid bone not work? What do you think?

[gregathit]

I agree it looks fishy but I really don't think the spine or pelvis is the problem.  The only thing I can think of is trying to mimic what happens with the shoulders to the thigh bones.  While I can see what bones do in blender, I am not as savvy with modifying the skeletons or tweaking the bones themselves.  There definitely is something messed up, I am just not sure how to fix it.  Perhaps the havoc of the thigh bones needs reworked.......

[varenne]

Do Oblivion skeletons use any form of kinematics? This may be a very simple or primitive form of it. I'm curious what it is you see with the shoulders, as they too should have a primitive form of kinematics being applied.

 

Gerra6 may be able to provide some additional insight here.

 

EDIT: Found it, same or similar to Poser: blender inverse kinematics Besides the bones you suspect are at issue, I'd take a look at this also as this deals with the relationship of bones, constraints that can be applied, etc. It may not be that some physics attributes are missing, it may be the Bethesda developers didn't make use of IK and IK attributes in developing the original skeleton.

 

The Doc2.4 version has a better explanation I think.

 

Another section I'd look at is where the skeleton begins or is created and that is Rigging, especially sub section Armatures.

 

It could be too that the Lovers animations are in some way exceeding the skeleton's original design constraints, as we can sort of guess the Bethesda developers never intended for their models to be in such positions or animations.