[question] removing/reordering ESP from load order

[Fraying9981]

Hi,

I'm in the middle of my modding journey and still trying to understand the danger of removing/reordering ESPs from my load order.

I use MO2, and resaver frequently.

 

Here are my observations/questions:

• It seems to me that the reason it messes up the game when reloading it is not so much missing stuff from the save, but that skyrim uses a hexa ordering system for esp that is used to reference spells, items etc. => if you change the load order, mod A might move from A0 to A1 in the list => references (such as A0x01234) to that mod that may be baked in the save become broken => in the worst case a function using these reference might not find them => similar to a bus error/segfault in C -> is this correct?
• when I remove a mod that simply adds a new location: it seems fine in general -> why?
• same for esp outfits
• In general I'd like to understand why "small mods" such as "Simple Bedroll" (item), "Cool new location without quests or npcs", or "cool outfit" are fine to remove & their order doesn't seem to matter at all?
• when I remove a mod with a lot of scripts but that I never activated in MCM and probably not triggered in anyway in game -> save becomes corrupted -> why?

 

 

Thanks in advance for your inputs!

Edited November 6, 2025 by Fraying9981

[Gukahn]

2 hours ago, Fraying9981 said:

when I remove a mod that simply adds a new location: it seems fine in general -> why?

No. It can fuck things up you just got lucky.

There are still things that might happen, like suddenly you walk around a certain place and there is a fucking hole on the ground. (You never now, until you checked them in SSEdit, what a mod might change outside it's radius of influence. There are mods that just change character information they have no business touching and fuck up npc replacer mods or quests. This is why we clean mods when we encounter such shit. Can't tell you how much I had to do that just because a mod put glasses on a character or similiar shit. 

 

2 hours ago, Fraying9981 said:

In general I'd like to understand why "small mods" such as "Simple Bedroll" (item), "Cool new location without quests or npcs", or "cool outfit" are fine to remove & their order doesn't seem to matter at all?

Again, luck. It matters, especially locations matter.

However there are chases where bad changes  only happen when you "visit" the place and then remove a mod. Without ever being there, some things are fine (Sometimes.)

 

Just do what everyone does since over 10 years.

Never, remove a mod mid game and done. Safest way. Outfits might be fine most of the time, but most things are not. If you really have to, you'll want to get Fallrimtools and clean a save after removing a mod that may cause issues.

This isn't rocket scienece my friend. Just what we call modding ettuiqette. ^^

 

 

Edited November 6, 2025 by Gukahn

[NymphoElf]

You have to think of your modded game similar to building something with Legos. Each mod you install either adds or changes bricks (many times both).

 

If you remove a mod without starting a new game, then suddenly your Lego Building has holes in it. Sometimes these are "ok" holes that don't affect anything, sometimes they cause weird things to happen, or the hole could cause everything to collapse.

 

This is why it's best to build everything you want before playing in the first place, because then the game has no holes and all of the Legos are in the right place.

 

=================================

 

This is an oversimplification, and there are SOME things you can safely add or remove mid-playthrough (adding is generally safer than removing), but that takes a deeper understanding of what is and isn't being changed by the addition or removal. You can get there if you're very patient and willing to break and fix your game many times to gain the understanding. I've effectively been doing that for over 10 years now and have a relatively solid grasp of what does and doesn't work - though I still have my slip ups.

 

Ultimately, be patient with yourself and the game. The knowledge will come with experience.

[NymphoElf]

3 hours ago, Fraying9981 said:

when I remove a mod that simply adds a new location: it seems fine in general -> why?

 

It depends on the location mod. If the location is a brand new cell that the game has never seen before, then it's fine to remove if that mod is the only one that wants to use that cell. However, let's say one of your mods adds a bunch of stuff to Whiterun and overwrites the main game's location. If you remove that mod, then you're very likely going to cause a lot of problems in Whiterun.

 

3 hours ago, Fraying9981 said:

same for esp outfits

 

Again, this is because it's data that the game has never seen before and is only present in that specific mod.

 

3 hours ago, Fraying9981 said:

when I remove a mod with a lot of scripts but that I never activated in MCM and probably not triggered in anyway in game -> save becomes corrupted -> why?

 

This is more complicated. However, just because you didn't touch the MCM doesn't mean the mod isn't activated. Every mod gets initialized when you start a new game or load a game with a mod installed for the first time. Therefore, you have SOMETHING from that mod in your save, even if you didn't interact with any of the added content. (The only exception to this is if you didn't save AT ALL after adding the mod - No Quick Saves, No Auto Saves, and obviously No Manual Saves. If you don't save your game, then the mod's data can't get saved either - therefore it's safe to delete that mod because the previous saves never saw it in the first place.)

 

As far as save corruption, that's harder for me personally to explain because I still don't fully understand it myself. As far as I understand it, corruption is the result of the save needing something that no longer exists, and for some reason it cannot safely resolve the fact that such thing no longer exists. This could be from a script that's still trying to run, but now doesn't exist, but since the save is in the middle of performing a task from that script it HAS to resolve the script, but since the script no longer exists it can't resolve the script. So it's caught in an unresolvable death loop - aka corrupt.

 

========================================

 

Mods that are entirely standalone and don't touch anything from the base game, and are not needed by anything else in your load order, are almost perfectly safe to add and remove at any time (however, the more mods you add, the less likely it is for any of these mods to not be touched by something else).

 

Everything else requires careful consideration... or just a new game.

Edited November 6, 2025 by NymphoElf

[Fraying9981]

8 hours ago, Gukahn said:

There are still things that might happen, like suddenly you walk around a certain place and there is a fucking hole on the ground.

 

ah so that might be why i got a giant floating island above whiterun 🤣

 

8 hours ago, Gukahn said:

Can't tell you how much I had to do that just because a mod put glasses on a character or similiar shit. 

 

This scares me

 

8 hours ago, Gukahn said:

If you really have to, you'll want to get Fallrimtools and clean a save after removing a mod that may cause issues.

 

are you saying you should clean after you remove? I do it with Resaver every time (undefined and unattached instances). So I'm fine?

 

7 hours ago, NymphoElf said:

Ultimately, be patient with yourself and the game. The knowledge will come with experience.

 

Yes while I don't have 10 years, I did notice on my latest playthrough that things are much more crash free than when i started modding 10 months ago and fucked so many saves. To give you an idea, I used to run Loot EVERY time after adding a mod. Because somewhere in a tutorial I read something like run loot before launching the game, and I assumed it was every time, not just once 🤣

 

7 hours ago, NymphoElf said:

However, let's say one of your mods adds a bunch of stuff to Whiterun and overwrites the main game's location. If you remove that mod, then you're very likely going to cause a lot of problems in Whiterun.

 

interesting. I did remove many mods in existing locations and it was fine. But good to know. my reasoning was that a location is a mesh with interactive elements on top of the existing mesh (like adding a tower somewhere where there is grass). so if you revert then there is simply just not the mesh and the objects anymore I guess?

 

7 hours ago, NymphoElf said:

Again, this is because it's data that the game has never seen before and is only present in that specific mod.

 

 

yeah but then if I may, can you develop a bit? because I've had the issue of adding outfits -> they are in my inventory -> i remove them from the load order -> the game simply doesnt display them in my inventory and it's fine. Can you really get a crash because an outfit is gone?

 

7 hours ago, NymphoElf said:

Mods that are entirely standalone and don't touch anything from the base game, and are not needed by anything else in your load order, are almost perfectly safe to add and remove at any time (however, the more mods you add, the less likely it is for any of these mods to not be touched by something else).

 

 

this is a solid baseline. How can a beginner determine with a reliable level of safety (not 100%) and time whether a mod doesn't touch anything from the base game. SSEdit is the first step I guess, but what would I look for?

[NymphoElf]

11 hours ago, Fraying9981 said:

interesting. I did remove many mods in existing locations and it was fine.

 

Again, it still depends on what exactly is removed and how that thing does or doesn't interact with the rest of your game and mods. That's where experience and understanding will need to take over, and its simply too much to explain here.

 

11 hours ago, Fraying9981 said:

yeah but then if I may, can you develop a bit? because I've had the issue of adding outfits -> they are in my inventory -> i remove them from the load order -> the game simply doesnt display them in my inventory and it's fine. Can you really get a crash because an outfit is gone?

 

Ok, so what you described here is exactly what I would expect to happen when removing an entirely standalone mod. The outfit only existed in that one mod, so when you removed the outfit mod, the outfit disappeared.

 

However, let's say that outfit was used in some NPC mod. Any NPCs that are assigned that outfit could run into issues if that outfit suddenly doesn't exist anymore. It's not guaranteed, but it COULD happen. Also, these simple objects are less likely to cause problems because they almost never have scripts or other complicated interactions attached to them. Devious Devices is such a notorious issue causer for newer players because almost all of those objects DO have scripts attached to them and have a much deeper link to the rest of the game that can't be removed as easily.

 

 

11 hours ago, Fraying9981 said:

How can a beginner determine with a reliable level of safety (not 100%) and time whether a mod doesn't touch anything from the base game. SSEdit is the first step I guess, but what would I look for?

 

You're on the right track. xEdit can help you determine this, but is 50/50 at best.

 

Anything a mod requires to have installed is guaranteed to touch that mod. So if Mod A requires Mod B, then you can't remove Mod B or Mod A stops working. But you already know this. xEdit can at least show you what is being changed and by which mod.

 

Soft Dependencies (Optional Requirements) are another story. It depends on how the Soft Dependency is accomplished, and this varies between mods. This will require understanding what the mod in question does, and usually reading the mod's description (and/or linked guide, if provided) will help you know what's happening.

 

As an example, Advanced Nudity Detection has an optional requirement for DFFMA. AND overwrites DFFMA's configuration files. Therefore, any other mod that looks for DFFMA's original configuration files will be affected or possibly break. This isn't something you'll find in xEdit, but you'll notice the need to say which mod overwrites what in your Mod Manager and it's explained on AND's mod page and in its guide.

 

Unfortunately, this is also partially a "time and experience" answer, because it's not always perfectly cut and dry, and the only person who knows your load order is you. The biggest thing you can do is understand what each mod does. As long as you know this, you'll probably be right in your decision making most of the time, as long as you follow all other proper modding procedure. There are a lot of steps to remember sometimes, so it's easy to forget one.

Edited November 7, 2025 by NymphoElf

[Fraying9981]

20 minutes ago, NymphoElf said:

Ok, so what you described here is exactly what I would expect to happen when removing an entirely standalone mod. The outfit only existed in that one mod, so when you removed the outfit mod, the outfit disappeared.

 

However, let's say that outfit was used in some NPC mod. Any NPCs that are assigned that outfit could run into issues if that outfit suddenly doesn't exist anymore. It's not guaranteed, but it COULD happen. Also, these simple objects are less likely to cause problems because they almost never have scripts or other complicated interactions attached to them. Devious Devices is such a notorious issue causer for newer players because almost all of those objects DO have scripts attached to them and have a much deeper link to the rest of the game that can't be removed as easily.

 

Thanks for clarifying! Yes indeed I understood soon in my journey that all DD mods being connected to DD causes problems.
Which makes me want to ask again about Unforgiving Devices: if I want to uninstall it mid game, the mod author suggested that I should go to a secluded area + disable all DD mods including UD -> resave -> reenable DD (while saying pray it doesn't crash). Would you have any additional tips to try this? I really dont like UD lol.

 

23 minutes ago, NymphoElf said:

Anything a mod requires to have installed is guaranteed to touch that mod. So if Mod A requires Mod B, then you can't remove Mod B or Mod A stops working

 

Yeah this is a good rule of thumb I've followed so far. Thanks for reminding. 

Also any mod that overwrites another mod right? as long as it's not textures which are safe overwrites.

 

Can you confirm my understanding is correct about the hex references vs load order? = it's also a problem if you change load order not just because of priority in game of the esp, but also because the absolute mod code matters i.e. if a mod is A1 in the load order, it's bad if you remove another mod and the first mod becomes A0 in the load order? Is it correct this really breaks references or it's just a MO2 cosmetic thing.

I thought of this because recently I checked OAR conditions in details and another mod SL triggers and realized both can rely on formIDs i.e. [mod esp code][reference of item or faction inside that mod] in hexa.

[NymphoElf]

1 hour ago, Fraying9981 said:

Which makes me want to ask again about Unforgiving Devices: if I want to uninstall it mid game, the mod author suggested that I should go to a secluded area + disable all DD mods including UD -> resave -> reenable DD (while saying pray it doesn't crash). Would you have any additional tips to try this? I really dont like UD lol.

 

The author's recommendation is likely due to any scripts becoming "dormant" when in empty areas. You can use one of the empty cells listed here to attempt to perform the uninstall. Use console command "coc {CELL ID}" to teleport there.

 

Inactive/Dormant scripts are easier to remove because they aren't actively being used, and therefore are less likely to cause problems once they no longer exist. Therefore, uninstalling and using a save cleaner may produce the desired results. But again, this is not guaranteed. If the mod has an Uninstall function, make sure to use that and wait for any "Uninstall finished" messages that may appear (if there is no such message, try to wait up to 3 to 5 IRL minutes before saving and exiting).

 

I would recommend simply removing the one mod you want gone first instead of all of its dependencies. The more you remove, the more likely you are to break something. You need to use a "scalpel", not a "hammer".

 

Remember that this still isn't a guarantee. It's still somewhat luck dependent, but you can minimize the amount of luck you need in many cases.

 

1 hour ago, Fraying9981 said:

Can you confirm my understanding is correct about the hex references vs load order?

 

Yes. You're on the right track here. This is where the knowledge starts to deepen. So buckle up...

 

Spoiler

Every mod uses Forms. Forms are Skyrim/Creation Engine's basic "Object". There are TYPES of Forms - Actor (aka NPC), Location, Container, Potion, Weapon, Armor, Quest, Topic, and so on - but everything becomes a Form at some point. Scripts, however, are a bit different. The vast majority of scripts EXTEND a Form and therefore share the Form's ID, but they can also standalone workers that typically return some type of information TO a Form or other script somehow (I'm not 100% certain, but I believe these are given temporary Form IDs in the FF space explained below - I will try to investigate and edit with proper info).

 

Every Form has a Form ID. The Form ID is a Hexadecimal number that is 8 digits long. The first two digits are reserved for the Load Order index that the plugin originates from. So, everything in the base Skyrim Master Plugin starts with "00". Everything in the Update master plugin starts with "01", Dawnguard starts with "02", Hearthfire starts with "03" and finally Dragonborn starts with "04" (assuming you have all of the DLC, which at this point everyone should).

 

Therefore, let's say you have Mod A in Load Order index "11", and let's say you have a weapon with Form ID "0B002222". Let's also now say that Mod B is in Load Order index "12" and has a weapon with Form ID "0C002222". It is theoretically possible for things to go wrong if you remove Mod A, because now Mod B will shift to Index 11, and the weapon from Mod B is taking the place of the weapon from Mod A, and the data is similar enough to cause confusion within the game. Alternatively, replacing that Form ID with something radically different could also cause problems. It comes down to what is changing and what is interacting with what is changed or what WAS interacting with what no longer exists.

 

However, it is a bit more complicated than that, and believe it or not there are some safeguards in place. Remember, Bethesda didn't require all of their DLCs at once to play Skyrim back in the old days. It was entirely possible to play with Dragonborn in load order 02 instead of 04, and they had to account for this. Most Forms have extra data telling the game which plugin they came from, not just the load order number, and they are able to self correct in many (but not all) cases.

 

Light Plugins are slightly MORE complicated. "Full" plugins use Form IDs within a specific range (xx001000 to xxFFFFFF). Any Form ID below "xx001000" enters the "Light" space.

 

Starting in SSE, "Light" plugins reserve Load Index "FE" (254 in decimal) and the Load Order hexes for Light Plugins are found in the next 3 digits: FExxx000

 

This means a Light Plugin with "Load Index" of 5 will start with "FE005".

 

Since there are 3 digits for Load Order space in this case, you can have up to 4096 Light Plugins (16^3 aka 16x16x16) in addition to 254 Full Plugins (16x16 minus two). This means that at the cost of only one plugin slot, SE/AE has a net gain of 4095 plugin slots, so long as those plugins are within a more constrained Form ID space (which MANY are, or at least CAN be).

 

Light Plugins are more Corruption prone, because their Form ID space isn't well guarded by the engine and essentially no failsafe exists. It's very possible for a "Light" plugin to be outside of their assigned Form ID space, cause problems, and essentially guarantee corruption. This is why it's such a big deal when Light Plugins are found to be outside of their assigned range.

 

The ID Space for Light Plugins is "FExxx800" to "FExxxFFF" in Special Edition (without BEES), and "FExxx000 to "FExxxFFF" in Anniversary Edition (or Special Edition with BEES). This just means that AE can natively accommodate Light Plugins that are twice as large as SE can natively, but BEES makes this irrelevant.

 

Lastly, Load Index 255 (FF) is hard-reserved by the game for Save Data and Dynamically Created objects, which is why NOTHING is allowed to touch that space directly.

 

[Fraying9981]

1 hour ago, NymphoElf said:

 

The author's recommendation is likely due to any scripts becoming "dormant" when in empty areas. You can use one of the empty cells listed here to attempt to perform the uninstall. Use console command "coc {CELL ID}" to teleport there.

 

Inactive/Dormant scripts are easier to remove because they aren't actively being used, and therefore are less likely to cause problems once they no longer exist. Therefore, uninstalling and using a save cleaner may produce the desired results. But again, this is not guaranteed. If the mod has an Uninstall function, make sure to use that and wait for any "Uninstall finished" messages that may appear (if there is no such message, try to wait up to 3 to 5 IRL minutes before saving and exiting).

 

I would recommend simply removing the one mod you want gone first instead of all of its dependencies. The more you remove, the more likely you are to break something. You need to use a "scalpel", not a "hammer".

 

Remember that this still isn't a guarantee. It's still somewhat luck dependent, but you can minimize the amount of luck you need in many cases.

 

 

Yes. You're on the right track here. This is where the knowledge starts to deepen. So buckle up...

 

  Hide contents

Every mod uses Forms. Forms are Skyrim/Creation Engine's basic "Object". There are TYPES of Forms - Actor (aka NPC), Location, Container, Potion, Weapon, Armor, Quest, Topic, and so on - but everything becomes a Form at some point. Scripts, however, are a bit different. The vast majority of scripts EXTEND a Form and therefore share the Form's ID, but they can also standalone workers that typically return some type of information TO a Form or other script somehow (I'm not 100% certain, but I believe these are given temporary Form IDs in the FF space explained below - I will try to investigate and edit with proper info).

 

Every Form has a Form ID. The Form ID is a Hexadecimal number that is 8 digits long. The first two digits are reserved for the Load Order index that the plugin originates from. So, everything in the base Skyrim Master Plugin starts with "00". Everything in the Update master plugin starts with "01", Dawnguard starts with "02", Hearthfire starts with "03" and finally Dragonborn starts with "04" (assuming you have all of the DLC, which at this point everyone should).

 

Therefore, let's say you have Mod A in Load Order index "11", and let's say you have a weapon with Form ID "0B002222". Let's also now say that Mod B is in Load Order index "12" and has a weapon with Form ID "0C002222". It is theoretically possible for things to go wrong if you remove Mod A, because now Mod B will shift to Index 11, and the weapon from Mod B is taking the place of the weapon from Mod A, and the data is similar enough to cause confusion within the game. Alternatively, replacing that Form ID with something radically different could also cause problems. It comes down to what is changing and what is interacting with what is changed or what WAS interacting with what no longer exists.

 

However, it is a bit more complicated than that, and believe it or not there are some safeguards in place. Remember, Bethesda didn't require all of their DLCs at once to play Skyrim back in the old days. It was entirely possible to play with Dragonborn in load order 02 instead of 04, and they had to account for this. Most Forms have extra data telling the game which plugin they came from, not just the load order number, and they are able to self correct in many (but not all) cases.

 

Light Plugins are slightly MORE complicated. "Full" plugins use Form IDs within a specific range (xx001000 to xxFFFFFF). Any Form ID below "xx001000" enters the "Light" space.

 

Starting in SSE, "Light" plugins reserve Load Index "FE" (254 in decimal) and the Load Order hexes for Light Plugins are found in the next 3 digits: FExxx000

 

This means a Light Plugin with "Load Index" of 5 will start with "FE005".

 

Since there are 3 digits for Load Order space in this case, you can have up to 4096 Light Plugins (16^3 aka 16x16x16) in addition to 254 Full Plugins (16x16 minus two). This means that at the cost of only one plugin slot, SE/AE has a net gain of 4095 plugin slots, so long as those plugins are within a more constrained Form ID space (which MANY are, or at least CAN be).

 

Light Plugins are more Corruption prone, because their Form ID space isn't well guarded by the engine and essentially no failsafe exists. It's very possible for a "Light" plugin to be outside of their assigned Form ID space, cause problems, and essentially guarantee corruption. This is why it's such a big deal when Light Plugins are found to be outside of their assigned range.

 

The ID Space for Light Plugins is "FExxx800" to "FExxxFFF" in Special Edition (without BEES), and "FExxx000 to "FExxxFFF" in Anniversary Edition (or Special Edition with BEES). This just means that AE can natively accommodate Light Plugins that are twice as large as SE can natively, but BEES makes this irrelevant.

 

Lastly, Load Index 255 (FF) is hard-reserved by the game for Save Data and Dynamically Created objects, which is why NOTHING is allowed to touch that space directly.

 

 

Thanks for this.

So light plugins are more corruption prone! Learned something more.

I always assumed esp were the core focus.

 

For ud: the reason why i want to remove it is that it overwrites the dd keys, making it a pain in the ass to unlock devices.

So im not sure just uninstalling it will make the dd keys work again but thanks for the additional precisions!

[NymphoElf]

28 minutes ago, Fraying9981 said:

For ud: the reason why i want to remove it is that it overwrites the dd keys, making it a pain in the ass to unlock devices.

So im not sure just uninstalling it will make the dd keys work again

 

Since they overwrite DD's keys, the original keys should be restored because the overwrites no longer exist.

 

 

Also, I need to clarify that every mod that has a plugin uses forms, not every mod in existence. For example, SKSE is Skyrim mod, but it has no plugin. Therefore there are no Forms in SKSE. Mods like SKSE, Papyrus Tweaks, and Engine Fixes are known as "Engine Injections". These can cause corruption or other problems for a much wider variety of reasons, and can be much harder to diagnose. ENBs, Physics Plugins, Animations, and so on are much more complicated and are extra areas where things can go wrong and break things. Essentially, they reach deeper into the core workings of the Creation Engine, and that's where the REAL fuckery begins.

 

My experience is much more limited in these areas, so I cannot give a similar comprehensive breakdown like I did with Forms and Form IDs. I know enough to get by, and that's about it.

Edited November 7, 2025 by NymphoElf