What libraries should I use for a slavery mod? (ZaZ, FNIS, SexLab, OStim, etc.)

[fallenmystic]

I've just started making a player slavery mod, and I need some advice on what libraries and frameworks I should use.

 

Initially, I thought I could just go with the familiar ZaZ and SexLab as I once did several years ago. But it looks like things have changed much since the last time I tried modding Skyrim.

 

I chose ZaZ over Devious Device because the former provides animations and convenient APIs that I can use in my mod.

 

However, I am confused about which version I should use. Searching for "ZaZ Animation Pack" on the internet gave me these results:

• ZAZ Animation Packs for SE 2023
• Zaz Animation Pack V8.0 plus 8.0 plus
• ZaZ Animation Pack V.9.0
• ZaZ Animation Pack 8.0+2023 - UBE Patch and BodySlide - UBE 2.0 1.0.0
• ZaZ Animation Pack+ CBBE HDT V.8.0+SEREV3_Voice.7z 1.0.0

It's my understanding that 9.0 was never ported for SE, so I probably should choose one of the others. But which one, exactly?

 

By the way, I'm also planning to switch to Skyrim VR since I got a VR headset a few days ago. I'm not sure if it'd be ok if I just think of SkyrimVR as a sort of an old SE version when it comes to mods that don't specifically provide a VR version.

 

I also noticed that there's something called OStim which I can use instead of SexLab. It looked interesting, but I got a feeling that it seems to focus on consensual animations, although there seem to be a few rough/non-consensual animation packs on this site.

 

The problem is that ZaZ depends on SexLab, and I'm not sure if it'd be worth—or even feasible—to use both SexLab and OStim to make a slavery mod. I doubt OStim would respect ZaZ restraints or provide its own bound animations, but I can't be sure.

 

Also, it looks like FNIS fell out of fashion since I left, and people seem to have migrated to something called Nemesis. But I just found out it hasn't been updated for a while, and there's yet another similar mod called Pandora. Am I understanding it right that both Pandora and Nemesis are drop-in replacements for FNIS (except for the creature animations), so I can just use either one with ZaZ/SexLab? OStim lists Nemesis as a hard requirement, so I wonder if it'd be ok to use Pandora. And I'm also curious if it'd be ok to install both FNIS and Pandora (and run them in this order) if I really want creature animations.

 

And again, would SkyrimVR make any problem with such a setup?

 

I was quite surprised that so many things have changed. I didn't expect the modding scene would still be so active for a 13-year-old game.

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited November 26, 2024 by Slaves of Tamriel

[BattDaPsycho]

I've browsed a LOT of mods here 😅 zaz 8+ seems to be popular to use so to cut down on end users having to download multiple things to make everything they want work that may be a good start point.

And yea, given the content of the mod you want to make I'd say probably SL framework would already be in the wheelhouse of your target user base.

I have seen guides to run both fnis and nemisis concurrently  but it's not something I've dabbled in personally.

However, if using SL framework then nemisis wouldn't be needed I think

[belegost]

8+ CBBE if you plan a 3BA support.

Edited December 1, 2024 by belegost

[fallenmystic]

I decided to go with ZaZ 8+ CBBE, as suggested. I managed to install both FNIS + Pandora and SexLab + OStim, which seem to run fairly well.

 

I haven't been able to make ZaZ furniture animation work with Skyrim VR, however, which I suspect has something to do with physics or collision settings. But it's something unrelated to the original question, so I'll start working on this setup.

 

Thanks, both of you!

[ag12]

I know I'm two weeks late and you've probably already started, but I read your original post and have to say...

 

Quote

I chose ZaZ over Devious Device because the former provides animations and convenient APIs that I can use in my mod.

 

You must be looking at different mods than the rest of us, because DD's APIs are *much* more advanced and modern than ZaZ, which is basically abandonware at this point.

The trend in the BDSM mod scene for SE is definitely to *remove* ZaZ dependencies and sunset that mod. Of course, this might change if 9 got ported to SE, but that seems unlikely. ZaZ 8+ is horribly outdated. I'd recommend for you to take a look at DDNG with contraptions and mods like Trappings of Fate as an example of what can be achieved with a modern library. If you were going to make an LE mod, sure, use ZaZ; but in the SE space you're going to have a sizeable portion of users that want to avoid ZaZ at this point.

Also, DD has a very active developer discord, whereas, again, ZaZ is abandonware. I'd steer clear. But that's just my two cents, either way, good luck!

[fallenmystic]

On 12/16/2024 at 2:18 AM, ag12 said:

I know I'm two weeks late and you've probably already started, but I read your original post and have to say...

 

You must be looking at different mods than the rest of us, because DD's APIs are *much* more advanced and modern than ZaZ, which is basically abandonware at this point.

The trend in the BDSM mod scene for SE is definitely to *remove* ZaZ dependencies and sunset that mod. Of course, this might change if 9 got ported to SE, but that seems unlikely. ZaZ 8+ is horribly outdated. I'd recommend for you to take a look at DDNG with contraptions and mods like Trappings of Fate as an example of what can be achieved with a modern library. If you were going to make an LE mod, sure, use ZaZ; but in the SE space you're going to have a sizeable portion of users that want to avoid ZaZ at this point.

Also, DD has a very active developer discord, whereas, again, ZaZ is abandonware. I'd steer clear. But that's just my two cents, either way, good luck!

 

I agree that ZaZ's development has been stale, while DD is much more actively maintained. However, DD's scope is much smaller than that of ZaZ unless there's a different DD project I'm not aware of, as you seem to suggest.

 

I haven't used DD yet, but I skimmed their documentation from here:

https://github.com/DeviousDevices/Docs/wiki/API-Reference

 

As you see, the small set of functions they provide is mostly for managing restraints, while ZaZ also covers things like furniture interactions, animations, slave management, and more. For example, ZaZ provides a good selection of various submissive poses with bound and struggling variants. Where can I find an alternative for them if I switch to DD?

 

I may still try DD because it isn't too difficult to replicate those APIs, and I'm using TypsScript anyway (which can't directly call such APIs). But I want to have some of the furniture devices in ZaZ anyway, and my personal preference is for a more 'serious' kind of slavery rather than the consensual, BDSM play kind of aesthetic that DD seems to provide.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Slaves of Tamriel

[ag12]

10 minutes ago, Slaves of Tamriel said:

 

I agree that ZaZ's development has been stale, while DD is much more actively maintained. However, DD's scope is much smaller than that of ZaZ unless there's a different DD project I'm not aware of, as you seem to suggest.

 

I haven't used DD yet, but I skimmed their documentation from here:

https://github.com/DeviousDevices/Docs/wiki/API-Reference

 

As you see, the small set of functions they provide is mostly for managing restraints, while ZaZ also covers things like furniture interactions, animations, slave management, and more. For example, ZaZ provides a good selection of various submissive poses with bound and struggling variants. Where can I find an alternative for them if I switch to DD?

 

I may still try DD because it isn't too difficult to replicate those APIs, and I'm using TypsScript anyway (which can't directly call such APIs). But I want to have some of the furniture devices in ZaZ anyway, and my personal preference is for a more 'serious' kind of slavery rather than the consensual, BDSM play kind of aesthetic that DD seems to provide.

https://discord.gg/NvptazZV

^ Devious Devices NG discord. Lots of updates, discussion, etc. there. Just sayin'.

 

And yes, you're completely right. There is stuff in ZaZ that is missing from DD, but I wouldn't call it a scope thing. DD's scope has expanded, it has it's own furniture implementation with some two dozen furnitures, etc. Most importantly, you're not asking people to install a dependency that is abandonware. ZAZ isn't "stalled", it's been abandoned for years!

 

Good luck either way, I'm just encouraging you to join an active community rather than a dead one.

 

[fallenmystic]

5 minutes ago, ag12 said:

https://discord.gg/NvptazZV

^ Devious Devices NG discord. Lots of updates, discussion, etc. there. Just sayin'.

 

And yes, you're completely right. There is stuff in ZaZ that is missing from DD, but I wouldn't call it a scope thing. DD's scope has expanded, it has it's own furniture implementation with some two dozen furnitures, etc. Most importantly, you're not asking people to install a dependency that is abandonware. ZAZ isn't "stalled", it's been abandoned for years!

 

Good luck either way, I'm just encouraging you to join an active community rather than a dead one.

 

I appreciate your concern. That was exactly the kind of advice that I wanted to ask when I created this thread. I didn't even know there was DD NG until now (by the way, has its documentation been published somewhere?).

 

As for the differences between DD and ZaZ, it's always been my understanding that DD is more suited for adding kinky flavour to ordinary gameplay, while ZaZ is better at creating a dedicated slavery environment full of bondage furniture. While I'm glad that DD now has some furniture items, it may need some time before challenging ZaZ in that specific aspect since there are literally a few hundred torture/bondage devices in ZaZ, even including some building blocks to create a dungeon cell.

 

I would definitely consider switching to DD if it provided at least the animations I need. But as for now, I have no choice but to stick with an unmaintained project, even if it means fewer people would play my mod when it gets released. I'm creating this mod primarily for my own enjoyment, so that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make if necessary.

 

Thanks again for the advice!

[ag12]

6 minutes ago, Slaves of Tamriel said:

 

I appreciate your concern. That was exactly the kind of advice that I wanted to ask when I created this thread. I didn't even know there was DD NG until now (by the way, has its documentation been published somewhere?).

 

As for the differences between DD and ZaZ, it's always been my understanding that DD is more suited for adding kinky flavour to ordinary gameplay, while ZaZ is better at creating a dedicated slavery environment full of bondage furniture. While I'm glad that DD now has some furniture items, it may need some time before challenging ZaZ in that specific aspect since there are literally a few hundred torture/bondage devices in ZaZ, even including some building blocks to create a dungeon cell.

 

I would definitely consider switching to DD if it provided at least the animations I need. But as for now, I have no choice but to stick with an unmaintained project, even if it means fewer people would play my mod when it gets released. I'm creating this mod primarily for my own enjoyment, so that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make if necessary.

 

Thanks again for the advice!

 

Your understanding is fundamentally wrong. DD is a framework, what you do with it is the modders' business. The reason you have that impression is because all the condensed "high quality" story mods use DD, because it's just the better framework. ZaZ doesn't even have a functionality to lock restraints. It's just an old asset pack. I wouldn't even call it a framework.

 

Beating a dead horse now, so I'll leave you to it - I just don't want you to say things that are objectively incorrect. ZaZ has no advantage outside the sheer amount of furniture, that's it. And even then, I'll take DD's furniture, which is more limited in variety, but at least DD's furniture has different animations for strugglging on the furniture and all that, ZaZ is just a pose mod in that regard.

 

Good luck, again!

[fallenmystic]

19 minutes ago, ag12 said:

 

Your understanding is fundamentally wrong. DD is a framework, what you do with it is the modders' business. The reason you have that impression is because all the condensed "high quality" story mods use DD, because it's just the better framework. ZaZ doesn't even have a functionality to lock restraints. It's just an old asset pack. I wouldn't even call it a framework.

 

Beating a dead horse now, so I'll leave you to it - I just don't want you to say things that are objectively incorrect. ZaZ has no advantage outside the sheer amount of furniture, that's it. And even then, I'll take DD's furniture, which is more limited in variety, but at least DD's furniture has different animations for strugglging on the furniture and all that, ZaZ is just a pose mod in that regard.

 

Good luck, again!

 

Just to join beating the dead horse (does it count as BDSM?) 😅, I suspect you're not as familiar with ZaZ as you seem to be with DD. You're wrong about the ability to lock restraint, for example. You can use `zbfUtil.WearItem(PlayerRef, WristBindings, abForced = True)` for that, which has been in ZaZ ever since I remember.

 

As for the difference of scope I mentioned, here are a few things that I believe ZaZ provides, but DD doesn't:

• A set of basic slave animations that reflects the status of the bound state of the actor.
• Many miscellaneous animations are useful for specific scenes, like peeing, dancing, beckoning a slave, and more.
• Slave management API, which makes enslaving, tracking, active and escaped slaves easy.
• There are some useful scripts and packages that allow you to do things like lead a slave in and out of a cage or punish them.
• API to control cum/dirt overlays.
• Tighter integration with SexLab, and support for mods like SlaveTats.
• Several hundred assets to build a custom dungeon & prison cell.

Compared to ZaZ, DD is much more focused on managing restraints.

 

Also, that's why I said DD is more suited for mods that add kinky flavour to normal gameplay. If you just want to slap a gag and collar on the player and let them roam around in Skyrim, DD can be a perfect choice. However, if you want to build your dungeon and do things like a scripted event in which some NPC drags the player into a cage and punishes them if they don't comply, ZaZ certainly provides much more useful tools than DD does.

[fallenmystic]

Oh, by the way, I'm still willing to try Devious Devices NG because I'm currently struggling with a nasty furniture animation issue I have with ZaZ on SkyrimVR.

 

At least testing DD will tell me if the issue is on ZaZ's side or something more fundamental. In case it turns out to be ZaZ's problem, there's a good chance that I'll just switch to DD.

 

[ag12]

 

Umm, I think the easiest way to respond to this is "no" but I'll take the time...

 

- ZaZs WearItem functionality, at least as of the last time I checked, is simple force equips, which means they can equally easily be unequipped by any other script overriding it. There are no checks, it's just the vanilla force equip function. Very unrealiable. DD on the other hand has extensive locking functionality and tracking for devices, including inter-mod priority systems to make sure your important quest device doesn't get unequipped by some radiant mod or the player can't use a radiant functionality they might have from a different mod to get rid of the quest devices.

 

As for all the other stuff:

34 minutes ago, Slaves of Tamriel said:

 

Just to join beating the dead horse (does it count as BDSM?) 😅, I suspect you're not as familiar with ZaZ as you seem to be with DD. You're wrong about the ability to lock restraint, for example. You can use `zbfUtil.WearItem(PlayerRef, WristBindings, abForced = True)` for that, which has been in ZaZ ever since I remember.

 

As for the difference of scope I mentioned, here are a few things that I believe ZaZ provides, but DD doesn't:

• A set of basic slave animations that reflects the status of the bound state of the actor.
  False: DD has many, many more animations than ZaZ and they aren't just poses / arm offsets, but actual animations with custom idles and high quality loops. This includes everything from wearing binds, to struggling, to cumming. Additionally, DD has blended animations, e.g combining an armbinder with pony moveset, or hobbled, etc. And the animations look good!
• Many miscellaneous animations are useful for specific scenes, like peeing, dancing, beckoning a slave, and more.
  Maybe? DD has basic animations for slave posing. ZaZ mostly has poses. It looks like it was made 10 years ago, which is because it was made 10 years ago. And the dances, yeah, sure. They look just as awful. If you value poor quality animations (just to be clear here: it's a product of it's time, not a product of shoddy animation work by the creator. Things were different 10 years ago) then you might say ZaZ has these things, sure. In contrast, *everything* in DD is polished.
• Slave management API, which makes enslaving, tracking, active and escaped slaves easy.
• There are some useful scripts and packages that allow you to do things like lead a slave in and out of a cage or punish them.
  These two points are pretty much the same. If you want to use outdated things, then go for it. Everything in ZaZ is old. Very old. Not performant, not optimized, not robust against player input. I do not count that as a positive, it's legacy code. DD has a lot of utility things in it and they work, are optimized and play nice amongst the various DD mods, provided you follow the guidelines.
• API to control cum/dirt overlays.
  Ok, sure. Cum overlays are handled by SL these days automatically, but alright, there's no dirt in DD.
• Tighter integration with SexLab, and support for mods like SlaveTats.
  Hmm? Where are you even getting this information? It's hard to even argue something so ... wrong? DD's SL filters are much more advanced and DD NG literally offers programatic device offsets to apply the bound animations over the top of other animations. This means, *any* SL animation can be turned into a bound animation. I'm really baffled that you'd even begin to think that. ZaZ has the bare minimum rudimentary SL implementation imaginable, DD has a whole API just for sex and is on the cutting edge of animation compatibility in ways that were unthinkable when ZaZ was conceived.
• Several hundred assets to build a custom dungeon & prison cell.
  Okay, this is the same as the two purple points above: a flood of low quality assets does not make it good. Skyrim can be a fantastic looking game, but not if you use ported Oblivion meshes. "Custom" dungeon is one way to call porting assets. Especially if you want something story driven or intense PC slavery scenes, with ZaZ you can have 20 versions of the same furniture, all just having one single pose ("sitting") and that's it. With DD, you can have less furniture, but each available furniture is high quality, offers a range of animations that seamlessly blend, letting you actually do things with the player while in the furniture. Oh, and if you discount the furniture in ZaZ that has glaring camera issues, yeah, your number of usable assets just got cut in half.

Compared to ZaZ, DD is much more focused on managing restraints.

See below. You're making these assumptions about DD that have absolutely no basis in reality. DD has literally got NPC support, it has far better SexLab integration and API, much higher quality assets, and there's a reason why the story mods use DD. Because DD is *not* just about roaming the world with a gag, it's the most comprehensive BDSM framework there is and it's not even close.

 

Also, that's why I said DD is more suited for mods that add kinky flavour to normal gameplay. If you just want to slap a gag and collar on the player and let them roam around in Skyrim, DD can be a perfect choice. However, if you want to build your dungeon and do things like a scripted event in which some NPC drags the player into a cage and punishes them if they don't comply, ZaZ certainly provides much more useful tools than DD does.

I really just don't understand how you look around and then come to this conclusion. All the higher quality bondage story mods like Trappings of Fate or Laura's Bondage Shop, which use very scripted scenes, utilize DD and not ZaZ. It's just completely wrong. Your knowledge of what DD does is completely false. DD is *not* made for "roaming" gameplay, it's deliberately made for both and that's why the BDSM story mods use DD. I simply don't understand where you're getting your information. DD is the more in depth framework with better player control, much more robust, especially for tight content such as scripted scenes and so forth - and once again, let me stress, DD has built in features to make sure your mod is compatible with the rest of the ecosystem.

 

Look, I'm trying hard not to sound rude or combative, but it's hard to do that when you say things such as "ZaZ has better SL integration", which is just such a ridiculous take.

So please understand that I'm just trying to inform you of the reality of SE in 2024, not be a dick about it.

 

Now, here's my closing argument:

 

IF it were 2016 again and you were modding for LE, didn't care much about how things look and don't care about compatibility with other BDSM themed mods, sure, use ZaZ over DD. But it's not and you're trying to mod for SE. The year is 2024, ZaZ9+ probably won't see the light of SE ever and DD NG is six thousand miles ahead of ZaZ. IF ZaZ 9 was on SE, I could *maybe* agree that the amount of furnitures and ported/remade assets are a valid advantage, but it's just not and probably never will be. If you had all the latest and greates that t'ara made, we might be having a different conversation. You don't have that. It's not between the flagship ZaZ9 and the flagship DDNG... For every one-pose-furniture with broken camera that ZaZ 8 adds, DD adds two new restraints and three new animations for furniture. Plus, DDNG is actively in development and cool people are adding new things to it *all the time*. ZaZ isn't even showing up to the race on SE.

 

Look, this has been enough for me to determine that you should take 2 days and examine exactly what the frameworks offer under the hood, because a lot of your opinions are based on simple misinformation and running ZaZ 8 up against base DD, when you should be running it up against DD NG. I was a ZaZ stan for many years, I talked to ZaZ' back in the day, both on Skyrim and on F4. Absolute legend. T'ara, also a legend in my book. ZaZ is long gone, t'ara shows no interest in the modern version of the game. If you *really* care about the furniture in ZaZ, use DD to handle the BDSM and have ZaZ as a quiet dependency asset pack. That's what I'd do. Running the old ZaZ script libraries is just not a good idea in this day and age. You will suffer and you will run into compatibility issues left, right and center. As time goes on, it's only going to get more outdated and DD NG is only going to get better, with support for all the modern things SE has to offer.

 

Either way, take this as one guy's advice, I don't think there's anything I can add to this now and I'm sure if you look hard enough you're going to find someone equally vocal about just staying on LE and using the ancient ways. Try to update your knowledge about what the frameworks do, and then reevaluate what you need and want. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with going against the grain if it suits your mod best, it's just going to suck all the way through. And if you run into any issues, well, you chose to live in a ruin instead of a house, so most likely nobody will have a solution for you, because the stuff you're using is literally a decade old.

 

Do yourself the favor and just mess around with DD NG 0.3.9.b2 from the discord and read the patchnotes for the last couple versions. I think you'll find your mind blown.

 

Or, prove me wrong and make the best damn ZaZ mod ever!

[fallenmystic]

@ag12 I NEVER said ZaZ is a better framework overall than DD or DD NG, or it's actively maintained. All I said was that ZaZ covers more features that I want for my mod, like slave management, various slave poses, and so on.

 

As I mentioned above, I'm even open to trying DD NG, and I still plan to do so, if just to see if the animation issue is related to ZaZ. If I find DD NG to be worth asking Tara for her permission to use ZaZ's resources and write a few missing scripts, I'll definitely use DD NG. Otherwise, I won't.

 

So, please let me decide what is best for myself, according to my tastes, and what I plan for my own mod.

 

I do appreciate your advice, and I can clearly see how you are very passionate about DD. But I don't think I need any more sales pitch about DD than I already had.

 

I hope you understand.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Slaves of Tamriel

[ag12]

Right, I specifically said to take what I wrote as an opinion piece and told you exactly that: choose for yourself! So I find it weird that you're responding as if I was telling you what to use. I literally ended my post with "Or prove me wrong and go do it anyways".

 

Don't pretend that you're being told what to do: you asked for opinions and said a bunch of objectively untrue things, I corrected them and emphasized that you should make your own choices, but that you were basing them off bad info. Now the information in the thread is accurate, you've been given all the information to choose what you want to do: good luck!

 

Apart from that, I corrected misinformation that you were spreading such as that ZaZ allegedly has better SL integration and such, which is simply false (to a ridiculous degree). I will continue to correct you if you post such misinformation, as it's bad for the entire community if outdated information is presented as up-to-date facts.

 

I hope you understand.

Thanks, and enjoy your mod making endeavours.

[fallenmystic]

20 minutes ago, ag12 said:

Right, I specifically said to take what I wrote as an opinion piece and told you exactly that: choose for yourself! So I find it weird that you're responding as if I was telling you what to use. I literally ended my post with "Or prove me wrong and go do it anyways".

 

Don't pretend that you're being told what to do: you asked for opinions and said a bunch of objectively untrue things, I corrected them and emphasized that you should make your own choices, but that you were basing them off bad info. Now the information in the thread is accurate, you've been given all the information to choose what you want to do: good luck!

 

Apart from that, I corrected misinformation that you were spreading such as that ZaZ allegedly has better SL integration and such, which is simply false (to a ridiculous degree). I will continue to correct you if you post such misinformation, as it's bad for the entire community if outdated information is presented as up-to-date facts.

 

I hope you understand.

Thanks, and enjoy your mod making endeavours.

 

I tried to be polite, but I no longer see the point. I don't think anyone asked you to defend the community against my "spreading misinformation", and I don't see there was anything "objectively untrue" in saying that I need animations and assets that only ZaZ provides for my own mod.

 

So, stop fanboying about DD unless you want the honour of becoming the first person on my ignore list.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Slaves of Tamriel

[ag12]

2 minutes ago, Slaves of Tamriel said:

 

I tried to be polite, but I no longer see the point. I don't think anyone asked you to defend the community against my "spreading misinformation", and I don't see there was anything "objectively untrue" in saying that I need animations and assets that only ZaZ provides for my own mod.

 

So, stop fanboying about DD unless you want the honour of becoming the first person on my ignore list.

 

You asked for opinions, then revealed a bunch of misinformation and when I took the time out of my day to give you the updated information so that you can make the best choices, you took it personally and claim it's fanboying. That's quite immature, so I don't really mind whether you put me on your ignore list or not - I'll still contest you if you say things that are wrong and I definitely don't need an invite or permission from anybody to do so.

 

Enjoy your day and your mod making (for the fourth time).