Looking for Advanced Modding Guides (Which FormIDs to compact and what to merge)

[fortylicks]

So, I've pretty much got the basics down. But I want to go over than just the basics. I've looked for detailed guides on compacting and merging, but they only explain how, not really the what. Are there any others out there or is it just trial and error?

[Just Don't]

Compacting (to ESL-flag the plugin I guess) can be done with these scripts, specific instructions are in the modpage. If you use Vortex I think there is an option to do this automatically without needing these scripts.

 

Avoid merging as much as you can, from the moment you merge something it's up to you to fix and maintain it (any new updates for a mod you've merged would imply updating your merge and fixing or changing any inconsistency or conflict with other mods on your loadorder). The stuff you can safely merge would likely be ESL flagged too, which is easier, less prone to user error and easier to maintain. If you really want to merge things start by simple outfit or weapon mods, plugins that edit a few records and so on. Avoid merging mods that are frameworks or requirement for other mods (these mods will look for the original plugin, not your merge, so you'll need to manually edit every mod requiring the thing you merged to require your merged plugin instead of the original mod).

[yorpers]

I'm not sure there are any actually good guides on this, but here are a few pointers.

 

1. Use xedit, not wrye bash and load every single mod, that way if you add an esl flag to a mod the records get updated in other mods that use those forms.

 

2. There is supposedly some kind of non-arbitrary limit of forms that can safely be added from an .esm or .esp with an .esl flag. The limit is 2048 I think. I don't actually know if this is true, personally. I still keep any esl flagged mods to below the 2048 (new) records to be safe. I'm pretty sure this is still a thing.?

 

3. There is a ton of misinformation in the modding community based on people not understanding that correlation doesn't equal causation. There are plenty of mods that people say are not safe to add an esl flag to that are actually completely safe, Sky UI comes to mind. (People break their game and don't understand why and blame the esl flags.?The game works without the esl flags and "AHAH!" They don't understand that they may have had something unrelated breaking their game.)

 

4. There are some problematic things that can happen with esl flagged files, most well known is form changes with follower mods causing the dark face bug. This can be circumvented by changing the face tint data and all that. I have read that mods with SEQ files and scripts are bad to compact, I have compacted many mods with these and haven't ran into problems. They can probably be problematic on a mod by mod basis.

 

5. One other potentially bad thing is adding an esl flag to mods with cells that are overwritten by other mods.

 

6. Never add an esl flag to mods in the middle of a playthrough if it is a mod you already have been playing with. Its just bad practice and can break things. 

 

I don't claim to know a lot about compacting and esl flags, but this is what I've observed in my own modding experience. Use it as you see fit.

Edited September 6, 2022 by yorpers

[traison]

One issue I ran into last night was that I had an ESL mod, and tried to get forms out of it with Game.GetFormFromFile and it did not work. Not saying I used it correctly, but the same (unchanged) code works as expected after converting it to an ESP.

 

My point here is that there's things outside of the CK/xEdit that may break if the plugin format changes, whether that is ESL->ESP or ESP->ESL.

Edited September 8, 2022 by traison
Confused myself with double negatives.

[fortylicks]

On 9/5/2022 at 9:46 PM, yorpers said:

I'm not sure there are any actually good guides on this, but here are a few pointers.

 

1. Use xedit, not wrye bash and load every single mod, that way if you add an esl flag to a mod the records get updated in other mods that use those forms.

 

2. There is supposedly some kind of non-arbitrary limit of forms that can safely be added from an .esm or .esp with an .esl flag. The limit is 2048 I think. I don't actually know if this is true, personally. I still keep any esl flagged mods to below the 2048 (new) records to be safe. I'm pretty sure this is still a thing.?

 

3. There is a ton of misinformation in the modding community based on people not understanding that correlation doesn't equal causation. There are plenty of mods that people say are not safe to add an esl flag to that are actually completely safe, Sky UI comes to mind. (People break their game and don't understand why and blame the esl flags.?The game works without the esl flags and "AHAH!" They don't understand that they may have had something unrelated breaking their game.)

 

4. There are some problematic things that can happen with esl flagged files, most well known is form changes with follower mods causing the dark face bug. This can be circumvented by changing the face tint data and all that. I have read that mods with SEQ files and scripts are bad to compact, I have compacted many mods with these and haven't ran into problems. They can probably be problematic on a mod by mod basis.

 

5. One other potentially bad thing is adding an esl flag to mods with cells that are overwritten by other mods.

 

6. Never add an esl flag to mods in the middle of a playthrough if it is a mod you already have been playing with. Its just bad practice and can break things. 

 

I don't claim to know a lot about compacting and esl flags, but this is what I've observed in my own modding experience. Use it as you see fit.

 

 

Yeah, this is really good advice. I 'eslified' all the 'dangerous' ones (Racemenu, Skyhud and Skyui) and haven't run into problems. I haven't used WB in ages, I stick to MO 2. I don't like Vortex all that much and the inability to order things (I don't want to start WWIII over here, Vortex just isn't for large load orders IMO). I also don't mod mid-playthrough. I mod first and make sure the build I want is complete and then I play. Its all testing before that. If I want to add mods, I pretty much delete my save (if they're game changing or new quests, if its just a companion or a weapon/armor, I won't bother).

 

On 9/5/2022 at 8:57 PM, Just Don't said:

Compacting (to ESL-flag the plugin I guess) can be done with these scripts, specific instructions are in the modpage. If you use Vortex I think there is an option to do this automatically without needing these scripts.

 

Avoid merging as much as you can, from the moment you merge something it's up to you to fix and maintain it (any new updates for a mod you've merged would imply updating your merge and fixing or changing any inconsistency or conflict with other mods on your loadorder). The stuff you can safely merge would likely be ESL flagged too, which is easier, less prone to user error and easier to maintain. If you really want to merge things start by simple outfit or weapon mods, plugins that edit a few records and so on. Avoid merging mods that are frameworks or requirement for other mods (these mods will look for the original plugin, not your merge, so you'll need to manually edit every mod requiring the thing you merged to require your merged plugin instead of the original mod).

 

Thanks! Its easy to find guides on *how* to merge, not *what* to merge. Honestly, I wouldn't merge ESLs unless my OCD kicks in and I want something super clean and orderly. I already have like 30 separators and probably suffer from 'eyes bigger than stomach syndrome'. But I'm at 660 with 211 active plugins (ESM + ESL), definitely not some of the insane 1200+ load orders I've seen floating around. 

 

I'm more worried about hitting the SL animation limit of 2k than having 1200 mods which I don't think is something I want or need.

 

17 hours ago, traison said:

One issue I ran into last night was that I had an ESL mod, and tried to get forms out of it with Game.GetFormFromFile and it did not work. Not saying I used it correctly, but the same (unchanged) code works as expected after converting it to an ESP.

 

My point here is that there's things outside of the CK/xEdit that may break if the plugin format changes, whether that is ESL->ESP or ESP->ESL.

 

I've seen that some mods like that have trouble when being converted to an ESL. Also you get big trouble if you convert big (heh) mods from ESP/ESM to ESL. The problem is that it completely fucks up the form IDs because the reason for the 255 limit is not engine based, but hexadecimal based. When you change a plugin from ESP to ESL, the form ID changes to 'FE'. Any mods referencing that file will break because the form ID changed. So you'd need to change the form ID of the file or reference that it was calling to. I've noticed SOME ESPs do this automatically in xEDIT but its not perfect, and if there's a lot of calls, you'd have to edit them all which would be a pain. Which is why its just not worth it with bigger mods. 

 

Also you should probably wait to install everything before you compact something (unless you know its isolated and not connected to other mods). Because if the flags automatically change in xEDIT, then you download a new mod which references the old ESP form ID, you'll run into problems. 

 

Another thing and misconception is that you shouldn't flag esm files. You can flag them, because esm, regardless of flag, will still load first in your load order. What you don't want to do is rename them as ESL, because then they'll just go wherever the hell in the order (though this can also be circumvented using LOOT to forcefully load it after another plugin. Why you'd rename when you can compact and flag is beyond me tho). 

[Nuverotic]

I wish someone would go through the SexLab based mods, and just see which of them can be compacted. Not just ELSified. 
I've got about 50-100 more mods to install, and I've only got like 10 or so ESP slots left. I've Compacted a LOT of mods, but only ones I knew were safe, via guides. In fact the only mods I'm unsure of are the Sexlab ones. They all have scripts. And that's why I'm scared to touch them. And my damn follower mods. I might have to bite the bullet and learn how to move Facegen Data around after Compacting Form ID's.

I do know for a fact the ELS number can be higher than 1024, or whatever was said in this thread. My game is currently STABLE AF. In fact, it's probably the most stable I've ever had it. Granted I've spent two weeks getting my load order to where it's at but, I'm SUPER proud of it.
 

Edited January 18, 2024 by Nuverotic

[tdkq413]

8 hours ago, Nuverotic said:

I've got about 50-100 more mods to install, and I've only got like 10 or so ESP slots left. I've Compacted a LOT of mods, but only ones I knew were safe, via guides. In fact the only mods I'm unsure of are the Sexlab ones. They all have scripts. And that's why I'm scared to touch them. And my damn follower mods. I might have to bite the bullet and learn how to move Facegen Data around after Compacting Form ID's.
 

 

Honestly good question. I have experienced broken scripts compacting form ID's for a different but scripted mod before, so it isn't entirely safe. That one used .dlls and it said it couldn't find the dll, so that is probably a no go. Most of the sensitive bits for those mods aren't actually in the esp's though, so maybe it's fine if there aren't dll's and they aren't referenced by another mod? If you do have dependents that are small, i.e. voicepacks, you might even merge them with the main mod then compact FormID in the merge, but I'd do only 1 or 2 mods at a time and keep backups.

[Azailahab]

I used ESLify Everything to get a few more slots. Now I am far from an expert on this so take anything I say as insane blabber with a few coherent bits of knowledge thrown in that may actually be useful.

 

I was trying to use Nolvus as a base for my build. Of course this makes things complicated because using a modpack as a base introduces all sorts of problems and will never be as good or as stable as building one from scratch. However, I really liked the look and decided to give it a go anyways. I had to ESlify mods, remove mods, and ESLify mods I was adding to make room for the NSFW stuff I wanted. My build is quasi-stable it crashes every now and then when transitioning to areas that have a bunch of stuff going on (about once a play session on average, and will occasionally have annoying issues. I have played it through level 26 now and so long as I maintain my tolerance for restarting every now and then, and my discipline on saving more often, then I will probably try to actually finish the game for the first time ever (been modding the game for the last five plus years and never got above 29 let alone finished the main quest, something my wife teases me about constantly).

 

Some of the mods shown below are no longer part of my build and I cannot speak for the majority of mods out there. That said some of the Lovers Lab mods, and others I added that I ESLified by using ESLify Everything are as follows.

 

Spoiler

BuxomWenchYuriana-TheGreatTownOfShorsStone Patch.esp

TRX - DremEnchBench.esp
TRX - Statue MilkStation.esp
TRX - Statue WildPassion.esp
TRX - Statue CandiGirl.esp
TRX_Statue MagicMeditation.esp
TRX - Statue MagicLessons.esp
TRX - Statue Alpha.esp
TRX - Statue TriumphOfTheBeast.esp
TRX - Statue Trophy.esp
TRX - Enven Huntress.esp
TRX - Statue ArcherMasteryF.esp
TRX - AncientQueenV3.esp
TRX - Statue TrixieJoke.esp
TRX - Elnven Huntress V2NF.esp
TRX - AncientQueen.esp
TRX - VaerminaF.esp
TRX - DibellaF.esp
TRX - SanguineF.esp
TRX_ST_Champion.esp
SOS - Smurf Average Addon.esp
SOS - VectorPlexus Muscular Addon.esp
SOS - VectorPlexus Regular Addon.esp
SOS - TRX - Futanari Addon.esp
SOS - TRX - Futanari Addon Horse.esp
SOS - Pubic Hair for TRX-Futanari Addon.esp
SOS - Pubic Hair for Females Addon.esp
KSWigsSMP.esp
Deadly Wenches.esp
Deadly Wenches - Faction Addon.esp
Forgotten Wenches.esp
Judgment Wenches.esp
Sunstarved_Tanlines.esp
LetYourHairDown.esp
Immersive Wenches -Enslaved Wenches patch-.esp
RaceMenuMorphsTRX.esp
Recorder Follower Patch.esp
OAroused.esp
CBPC anus support.esp
CRF-SkyrimTeens.esp
DBVO.esp
PW SE G9 hotfix.esp
Skyrim Teens.esp
SlaverunEnforcerStandsalone.esp
ZMD'S Obscure Overlays RaceMenu.esp
Animal_SOS.esp
SOS - Animal Addon.esp
dD Enchanted Chests.esp
DeviousInterests.esp
FadeTattoos.esp
PaPunishmentPack1.esp
PrisonAlternative_Executions_Riften.esp
PrisonAlternative_Executions_WindHelm.esp
RapeTattoos.esp
SL Dirty Deeds Missives.esp
sl_triggers.esp
SLSO_F_VP_The Girl Next Door.esp
sr_FillHerUp.esp
ZAO_active_overlays.esp
AnubAnimObj.esp
NCK30Obj.esp
NibblesAnimObjects.esp
SLAL_AnimationsByLeito.esp
SLALAnimObj.esp
SLALAnimObjBillyy.esp

 

What many have said in this thread is true, the level of misinformation out there (which I may actually be contributing to) is huge. I wish I had more experience so I could write better instructions. If you are curious how I did this is and want to know more about what I did Nolvus NSFW Build: A Guide (Sort of), I go into more detail there on how I used ESLify Everything. Just understand I am on my own journey and am most certainly making more mistakes than I think I am so do not get angry when none of it works as planned. 

Edited January 21, 2024 by Azailahab