[Question] Some newbie questions on the CK.

[Tlam99]

One needs to make the effect a constant effect, not fire and forget.

Recommended to add absorb stamina, this prevents enemies from running, also constant effect.

Works perfect on my bow

[neghthraw]

56 minutes ago, T-lam said:

One needs to make the effect a constant effect, not fire and forget.

Recommended to add absorb stamina, this prevents enemies from running, also constant effect.

Works perfect on my bow

If you mean the field "Casting Type" of "Magic Effect", that should not be necessary. Every slow effect from mods i know and the base game itself always have fire and forget as value, and they work with it.

As far as I know, the only relevance of this field is for spells using the magic effect. From the CK wiki:

• Casting Type: Specifies how the caster triggers the effect.
  • Concentration Effects are cast while the button is pressed, and continually drain Magicka while the spell remains in effect.
  • Fire and Forget Effects must charge, then fire when the button is released.
  • Constant Effects are always active.
  • All of the effects on a Spell must have the same casting type.

For enchantments:

• Casting: Armor Enchantments must use the 'Constant Effect' casting type. Weapons and Staff Enchantments may be 'Concentration' or 'Fire and Forget'.

[neghthraw]

2 hours ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

I don't get it, at first it didn't work & it decided to work when I was about to give up. So Acolyte Jensen has involuntarily volunteered to be shot at. I installed the mfg mod as you suggested.

Before

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After

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Then he ran away, the effects disappeared, shot him again & everything works.

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Here's the bleeding damage if you want to see as well.

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Stupid steam didn't save a screenshot of a Whiterun guard who got shot trying to save acolyte Jenssen for some reason. The guy can't even run after he took just 1 arrow while Jenssen need to take 2...
 

Strange. I don't know why it should not work on the first shot.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

1 hour ago, T-lam said:

One needs to make the effect a constant effect, not fire and forget.

Recommended to add absorb stamina, this prevents enemies from running, also constant effect.

Works perfect on my bow

Now that you mention it, I've been dying to know how does the game even handle Constant Effect & Fire and Forget. Destruction spells are Fire and Forget yet the NPC still gets burnt & everything. My logic keeps telling me to go for constant, but the existing spells suggest fire & forget. 

[Lyman the Lunatic]

33 minutes ago, neghthraw said:

Strange. I don't know why it should not work on the first shot.

I also just realized something. I've been testing on creatures instead of humans. The slow effect doesn't work on creatures at all. Do you think if I put something like damage stamina will make it work?

 

Spoiler

 

[neghthraw]

8 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

I also just realized something. I've been testing on creatures instead of humans. The slow effect doesn't work on creatures at all. Do you think if I put something like damage stamina will make it work?

Did you check with the console if the effect is active on them? Creatures like bears or gargoyles can still charge you, this is unaffected of their speed value. It only affects their walking/running speed.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

6 minutes ago, neghthraw said:

Did you check with the console if the effect is active on them? Creatures like bears or gargoyles can still charge you, this is unaffected of their speed value. It only affects their walking/running speed.

Yes, sorry I edited my previous post to add the screenshot probably while you were typing this. But yes, the effects were applied to them. They were not slowed at all. But they were attacking my char, so if charges are immune to slow effects then that settles it. But I did tried on something that tends to run away most of the time, like deers. The slow doesn't seem to work on them. But they are so weak they die from the bleed out anyway.

[Tlam99]

constant effect and draw stamina works on trolls bears, NPC ,so far I tested. They cannot run anymore, walk slow.

 

fire forget is one hit event, burning afterwards is taper curve etc.

Changing values is constant, fire forget  effect might stop before, dispelled by another event or spell.

[neghthraw]

There is an error in the way I set this up. The first shot applying the effect decreases speedmult by 75 (from 100 to 25). The second shot also decreases speedmult by 75 (from 25 to -50). The game caps this at 0. This results in the game using 100 (default value) because it does not consider 0 a valid value.

 

This was not a problem with the original I copied this from, since it was considered by the mod author. It was a 10% reduction that was not applied to targets with 15% or less remaining speed so that it could not reach 0.

 

To fix this, the condition of the magic effect should be changed so that for example a 70% slow only gets applied if the target has more than 70% speed remaining. My example already has a condition for 15% remaining movement speed attached, you just need to change the value there.

 

Now the obvious problem is that if you want a big slow like 70%, you will have a problem if the target is already slowed below 70% by for example a frost spell (~50% slow), because then the slow would not be applied (50% < 70%). If your slow effect is around 30% or smaller (with the condition speed>30%), you probably are fine. If you want a bigger slow, I would know a possible workaround to realize this, but with more effort to implement.

 

Edit: The way the effect works right now is that the effect stacks as long as the condition is fulfilled. If you do not want it to stack, that can also be done.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

1 hour ago, neghthraw said:

There is an error in the way I set this up. The first shot applying the effect decreases speedmult by 75 (from 100 to 25). The second shot also decreases speedmult by 75 (from 25 to -50). The game caps this at 0. This results in the game using 100 (default value) because it does not consider 0 a valid value.

Edit: The way the effect works right now is that the effect stacks as long as the condition is fulfilled. If you do not want it to stack, that can also be done.

 
Wow I didn't know about that at all. I just leave the effect high because it's easier to see & so my char wouldn't die or spending the time chasing after the volunteers. But if what you said is true, that explains why it looks as if the slow effect doesn't work on creatures. Will stacking the effect a good way to work around this bug, or that is way too complicated?

 

[Lyman the Lunatic]

1 hour ago, T-lam said:

 fire forget  effect might stop before, dispelled by another event or spell.

 

That would explain why I had to shoot the arcolyte 2 times for the effect to kick in. I can try changing all fire forgets to constants.

[neghthraw]

1 hour ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

 
Wow I didn't know about that at all. I just leave the effect high because it's easier to see & so my char wouldn't die or spending the time chasing after the volunteers. But if what you said is true, that explains why it looks as if the slow effect doesn't work on creatures. Will stacking the effect a good way to work around this bug, or that is way too complicated?

 

For testing, you can use a high value and set the condition accordingly. With stacking, that is a design choice of how you want to have it. Do you want a low but stacking slow or a greater slow of X that stays at X when you shoot more arrows.

[neghthraw]

Slow but stacking: Change the magnitude of the enchantment to a lower value (for example 10) and edit the condition on the magic effect to be at least greater than 10, depending on what % of speed you want the enemy to have as a minimum.

 

One persistent slow: Edit the condition on the magic effect to be at least greater than the slow magnitude so you don't reach zero. Define a Keyword (for example xxx_KeywordSlow), add it to the magic effect (make sure there no other keywords on it), and tick the "Dispel Effects with these Keywords" checkbox. This will cause the effect from a new hit to replace the effect from the hit before, therefore prolonging the duration. Otherwise the effect would keep the timer from the first hit and not get renewed.

[neghthraw]

1 hour ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

That would explain why I had to shoot the arcolyte 2 times for the effect to kick in. I can try changing all fire forgets to constants.

I think fire and forget works without problems once you entered combat with someone. The one case you described, it only did not work while you were not in combat and the NPC was not an enemy, but neutral.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

13 minutes ago, neghthraw said:

For testing, you can use a high value and set the condition accordingly. With stacking, that is a design choice of how you want to have it. Do you want a low but stacking slow or a greater slow of X that stays at X when you shoot more arrows.

To be honest, I haven't even consider the aspect of design choice at all. I am still thinking that if I am in a situation where I have to shoot at the same target multiple times (ie bosses), would stacking stops the game from resetting the slow effects.

I merely wanted the effect to stay, that's all. If stacking is easier, then okay. If it's not, while I want to know how to do it, I just don't know if I am capable of absorbing the knowledge.

On a somewhat unrelated note. I've been testing with some sabre cats. I found out that on some rare occasion, no status effects will be applied.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[neghthraw]

4 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

To be honest, I haven't even consider the aspect of design choice at all. I am still thinking that if I am in a situation where I have to shoot at the same target multiple times (ie bosses), would stacking stops the game from resetting the slow effects.

Stacking effects all have their own timer I think.

 

5 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

If stacking is easier, then okay.

10 minutes ago, neghthraw said:

One persistent slow: Edit the condition on the magic effect to be at least greater than the slow magnitude so you don't reach zero. Define a Keyword (for example xxx_KeywordSlow), add it to the magic effect (make sure there no other keywords on it), and tick the "Dispel Effects with these Keywords" checkbox. This will cause the effect from a new hit to replace the effect from the hit before, therefore prolonging the duration. Otherwise the effect would keep the timer from the first hit and not get renewed.

It is not that much more effort.

[Tlam99]

34 minutes ago, neghthraw said:

it only did not work while you were not in combat

constant works also out of combat on neutral

 

I test it always with 2 weapons, one normal damage hostile

one set not hostile 0 damage bow, 0 damage arrows.

Constant worked the best for those.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

1 hour ago, neghthraw said:

One persistent slow: Edit the condition on the magic effect to be at least greater than the slow magnitude so you don't reach zero. Define a Keyword (for example xxx_KeywordSlow), add it to the magic effect (make sure there no other keywords on it), and tick the "Dispel Effects with these Keywords" checkbox. This will cause the effect from a new hit to replace the effect from the hit before, therefore prolonging the duration. Otherwise the effect would keep the timer from the first hit and not get renewed.

 

This is what I feared, I don't understand what you meant. Where & how exactly do I insert these parameters? I'm sorry if I'm failing to understand something super obvious right here...
 

Spoiler

 

 

[neghthraw]

24 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

 

This is what I feared, I don't understand what you meant. Where & how exactly do I insert these parameters? I'm sorry if I'm failing to understand something super obvious right here...
 

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Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

The CK takes a LOT of getting used to.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

7 hours ago, T-lam said:

 

Recommended to add absorb stamina,

 

I don't know what's wrong, I put them on the arrows & the stats don't work on non hostile NPCs.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

15 minutes ago, neghthraw said:

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The CK takes a LOT of getting used to.

Just a screenshot, am I doing it right?

Spoiler

 

 

[neghthraw]

3 hours ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

Just a screenshot, am I doing it right?

Yes.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

7 hours ago, neghthraw said:

Yes.

Finally, now it works!

But I also ran into another problem. Now the arrow effects don't work on neutral or passive creatures. I keep tweaking stuff but it doesn't seem to work. Would you mind giving it a look?Tauriels Bow and Arrows(modded)-102966-1-6-1600291606.rar

[Tlam99]

Guard

 

Spoiler

Use draw stamina, no duratation recover

Block stamina regeneration recover, little less than slow.

All my magic effects are constant

Recover is important, otherwhise the effects on AV will be permanent.

[neghthraw]

7 hours ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

Finally, now it works!

But I also ran into another problem. Now the arrow effects don't work on neutral or passive creatures. I keep tweaking stuff but it doesn't seem to work. Would you mind giving it a look?Tauriels Bow and Arrows(modded)-102966-1-6-1600291606.rar

I have literally no idea why it does not work on neutral/passive NPCs.