Seams in Nifskope - suspected mesh issue

[Nexussux!]

Here's the problem:

 

 

Spoiler

 

This is a custom riekling model with custom textures, that is nevertheless UV-compatible with vanilla textures. It comes from "Tirk the Riekling" mod.

The seams appear both in-game and in NIfskope regardless of whether a custom or vanilla texture is applied to the mesh in nifskope. I've tried colour blending in photoshop - no result.

 

I suspect this might be an issue with the mesh. I have plenty of experience with Blender (and can import the .nif no problem), but I still can't find out why do these seams appear. UV-map is vanilla, and is correctly shown in nifskope and Blender.

 

Judging by the fact that seams appear on vanilla textures as well, this is probably an issue with the mesh, perhaps normals? Any clues on how to resolve it?

 

 

 

[MadMansGun]

20 minutes ago, Nexussux! said:

perhaps normals?

yes, smooth normals and update tangent space.

[Nexussux!]

3 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

yes, smooth normals and update tangent space.

Thanks a lot for the tip! Just minor clarification though-can I smooth the normals in Blender or does it have to be done directly in Nifskope?

[MadMansGun]

4 minutes ago, Nexussux! said:

can I smooth the normals in Blender

i don't use Blender but i would assume so (i also do that with 3ds max). you will probably still need to hit update tangent space in skope.

[Nexussux!]

7 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

i don't use Blender but i would assume so (i also do that with 3ds max). you will probably still need to hit update tangent space in skope.

Thanks, I'll check it out!

[Nexussux!]

On 8/26/2021 at 7:08 AM, MadMansGun said:

i don't use Blender but i would assume so (i also do that with 3ds max). you will probably still need to hit update tangent space in skope.

 

Smoothing normals helped initially, and it did reduce the seam visibility. Yet, that was not enough. Then I've re-opened the model in Blender and saw something weird.

 

The model had mesh "disconnections" along the UV seams when opened in blender. As in the UV "islands" of the mesh are not continuous - they are separate from each-other by 0.000001 unit or smth at the UV seams (basically double vertices). Weird, but mending those fixed the issue 99%. Some VERY minor seams persist in NifSkope, but are unnoticeable in-game.

 

On the other hand, updating tangent space instantly messed up all the speculars for some reason. I just rolled-back and let it be.

 

Thank you for the hint!

 

[MadMansGun]

3 hours ago, Nexussux! said:

they are separate from each-other by 0.000001 unit or smth at the UV seams (basically double vertices)

ah yes, that's a common problem that you will see with meshes that were imported & exported from 3ds max at some point.

the meshes get disconnected at the texture seams on import and then people fail to re-weld them before export.

 

i've lost count of how many mods i've seen that have that problem. (even ABC has it)

[Nexussux!]

5 hours ago, MadMansGun said:

ah yes, that's a common problem that you will see with meshes that were imported & exported from 3ds max at some point.

the meshes get disconnected at the texture seams on import and then people fail to re-weld them before export.

 

i've lost count of how many mods i've seen that have that problem. (even ABC has it)

Makes sense now, thanks again! Amazing how not a single "how to mod in-game models manual" out of available online mentions this. Or perhaps I'm not looking at the right ones hah.

[MadMansGun]

28 minutes ago, Nexussux! said:

Makes sense now, thanks again! Amazing how not a single "how to mod in-game models manual" out of available online mentions this. Or perhaps I'm not looking at the right ones hah.

they are probably unaware of it or just completely ignore it, many tutorials seem to be based on human body meshes and those don't even use mesh based normals

 

on a semi related note there is a new plugin available for blender:

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/174861-modders-importexport-skyrim-le-se-meshes-directly-from-blender/

 

[t.ara]

If using 3dsmax you probably also use an exporter like NIFexporter for 3dsmax and maybe also for blender. If you IMPORT a gamebryo-file, you mostly get a result inside of 3dsmax, which is "un-welded", which means that all the polygon-dots for each triangle or quad may be disconnected.

If you use the bespoken importers, you need to create ALWAYS a POLY-modell and then WELD it to be completely again "together, means "welded" again. And... if you want to be secure about the normal-handling, you use a function, which NORMALS all the surfaces again. After that function, the normals may point to their opposite sides, means the red markered surfaces of the modell are DARKER-red. U then have to FLIP  the model to bring the normals to FACE, so that all the triangles or quads will show up the LIGHT red/orange faces. After normalizing the model, you get an UNSMOOTHED surface, which then you should again SMOOTH with the dedicated function inside your 3d-software. With this stage of the model you can then think about an EXPORT again with the tools which we have for a NIF-file export. If you have built up clothing ALWAYS take care to store your work beside, create a WEIGHTED model by using a suiting skeleton and then export it again with NIF-exporter. Make sure to use OPTIMAL settings for the export. NIF exporters CAN destroy an original prepared modell if the settings are choosen wrongly.

The model in nifscope later should also being optimized for SKYRIM as you use UPDATE ALL TANGENT SPACE and RECORDER BLOCKS in the sanitize-menu. After that you can take your cloth and work at it in Bodyslide and also use the SOFTEN-TOOL without getting in troubles without mesh-destroying.

A fine welded object with those work-arounds is OPTIMIZED for the game and uses the most less engine-power.

 

 

By export some FACES of your model can become damaged again...specially on such models, which are complicated or made with MID-poly-amounts. Specially for those exports we use the FUNCTIONS in NIFSCOPE, which I mentioned on the button of that text. NIFSCOPE is NECCESARY as long you use the common exporters. If you use bethesdas´s original exporters, the preparation for the gamebryo-files is DIFFERENT (in that case you don t need NIFSCOPE any longer).

[Nexussux!]

2 hours ago, t.ara said:

If using 3dsmax you probably also use an exporter like NIFexporter for 3dsmax and maybe also for blender. If you IMPORT a gamebryo-file, you mostly get a result inside of 3dsmax, which is "un-welded", which means that all the polygon-dots for each triangle or quad may be disconnected.

If you use the bespoken importers, you need to create ALWAYS a POLY-modell and then WELD it to be completely again "together, means "welded" again. And... if you want to be secure about the normal-handling, you use a function, which NORMALS all the surfaces again. After that function, the normals may point to their opposite sides, means the red markered surfaces of the modell are DARKER-red. U then have to FLIP  the model to bring the normals to FACE, so that all the triangles or quads will show up the LIGHT red/orange faces. After normalizing the model, you get an UNSMOOTHED surface, which then you should again SMOOTH with the dedicated function inside your 3d-software. With this stage of the model you can then think about an EXPORT again with the tools which we have for a NIF-file export. If you have built up clothing ALWAYS take care to store your work beside, create a WEIGHTED model by using a suiting skeleton and then export it again with NIF-exporter. Make sure to use OPTIMAL settings for the export. NIF exporters CAN destroy an original prepared modell if the settings are choosen wrongly.

The model in nifscope later should also being optimized for SKYRIM as you use UPDATE ALL TANGENT SPACE and RECORDER BLOCKS in the sanitize-menu. After that you can take your cloth and work at it in Bodyslide and also use the SOFTEN-TOOL without getting in troubles without mesh-destroying.

A fine welded object with those work-arounds is OPTIMIZED for the game and uses the most less engine-power.

 

 

By export some FACES of your model can become damaged again...specially on such models, which are complicated or made with MID-poly-amounts. Specially for those exports we use the FUNCTIONS in NIFSCOPE, which I mentioned on the button of that text. NIFSCOPE is NECCESARY as long you use the common exporters. If you use bethesdas´s original exporters, the preparation for the gamebryo-files is DIFFERENT (in that case you don t need NIFSCOPE any longer).

 That is roughly the pipeline I'm using (but with Blender instead of Max). Import .nif - > fix seams  -> do the mesh edits -> export. Didn't have the need to flip or recalculate normals... yet. Before Madmansguns' advice above, I wasn't aware of this weird seaming quirk tho.

 

Looking at your detailed explanation of a process, I realize I might have missed a couple of steps. Makes me once again wonder how Beth made the simplest of tasks (importing common format meshes and pre-made anims) so unnecessarily and butt-fuckingly complex compared to Godot, Unity and Unreal engines, its direct competition. Oh well, as long as it works (tm).

[Nexussux!]

2 hours ago, MadMansGun said:

they are probably unaware of it or just completely ignore it, many tutorials seem to be based on human body meshes and those don't even use mesh based normals

 

on a semi related note there is a new plugin available for blender:

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/174861-modders-importexport-skyrim-le-se-meshes-directly-from-blender/

 

 

Thanks! Worth checking it out. I'm currently using Blender 2.90 gamebryo .nif importer plugin which is more of a general-purpose (multi-game), so something more skyrim-oriented maybe will cut a couple of hoop jumps.

[MadMansGun]

3 hours ago, t.ara said:

.

none of my meshes have ever fucked up to that extreme, just the disconnect at the texture seams.

 

(but i have seen many 3d printer files that are fucked up like that)

[t.ara]

16 hours ago, MadMansGun said:

none of my meshes have ever fucked up to that extreme, just the disconnect at the texture seams.

 

(but i have seen many 3d printer files that are fucked up like that)

That workaround only will help getting optimal results-it is not always necessary-but a safe way to get the best by using the modding tools. In blender, the situation may be different, depending on that ex/importer-tool. Anyway would I always check out the quality of my work to avoid errors in the gamebryo-file.

[t.ara]

17 hours ago, Nexussux! said:

 That is roughly the pipeline I'm using (but with Blender instead of Max). Import .nif - > fix seams  -> do the mesh edits -> export. Didn't have the need to flip or recalculate normals... yet. Before Madmansguns' advice above, I wasn't aware of this weird seaming quirk tho.

 

Looking at your detailed explanation of a process, I realize I might have missed a couple of steps. Makes me once again wonder how Beth made the simplest of tasks (importing common format meshes and pre-made anims) so unnecessarily and butt-fuckingly complex compared to Godot, Unity and Unreal engines, its direct competition. Oh well, as long as it works (tm).

Gamebryo-files which have been used inside of the creation ENGINE are extreme complex and can have tons of parameters, which can only being handled by the original exporter.

Anyway is the tool made by figment (nexus/github) IDEAL for the statical mesh, for animated meshes (gamebryo-based animation-export), clothing-assets, skeleton/plus meshes with weighting, collision and also constraint angled-jobs as well (I exported NEW carriage-models with working wheels and collisions successfully with it). If you use a new exporter check it out in detail to get an impression about it´s range of abilities first, and before you work with it professional. I stayed after different tests with different versions to the figment´s latest version, available on GITHUB (for 3dsmax). The export is VERY FAST and with only some few checks of markers possible-that ´s the mega deal of those tools !!!

 

[Nexussux!]

On 8/28/2021 at 4:30 PM, t.ara said:

Gamebryo-files which have been used inside of the creation ENGINE are extreme complex and can have tons of parameters, which can only being handled by the original exporter.

Anyway is the tool made by figment (nexus/github) IDEAL for the statical mesh, for animated meshes (gamebryo-based animation-export), clothing-assets, skeleton/plus meshes with weighting, collision and also constraint angled-jobs as well (I exported NEW carriage-models with working wheels and collisions successfully with it). If you use a new exporter check it out in detail to get an impression about it´s range of abilities first, and before you work with it professional. I stayed after different tests with different versions to the figment´s latest version, available on GITHUB (for 3dsmax). The export is VERY FAST and with only some few checks of markers possible-that ´s the mega deal of those tools !!!

 

Sadly, I can't check out figment's plugin as I use Blender. Oof.