Frontier controversy is a perfect showcase why sex mods should be kept separate

[Mars1991]

As the title suggests. The whole America sex slave thing looks like something someone from this site could have come up with, with one key difference, mods on this site are opt in, and so it should stay. I don't care how appropriate to the setting it may be, pushing such things on unsuspecting players is not cool. Most people are still extremely uncomfortable with things like that, we are still extreme minority.

 

One may think they are slipping things under the radar, but they are not, sentences like "my little slave girl" are anything but subtle.

 

I am not saying such things should not exist, far from it, this site contains many such mods and i personally downloaded and installed many of them, but again, they should be opt in, such things should never come bundled in with a big and highly expected mod.

[steelpanther24]

47 minutes ago, Mars1991 said:

As the title suggests. The whole America sex slave thing looks like something someone from this site could have come up with, with one key difference, mods on this site are opt in, and so it should stay. I don't care how appropriate to the setting it may be, pushing such things on unsuspecting players is not cool. Most people are still extremely uncomfortable with things like that, we are still extreme minority.

 

One may think they are slipping things under the radar, but they are not, sentences like "my little slave girl" are anything but subtle.

 

I am not saying such things should not exist, far from it, this site contains many such mods and i personally downloaded and installed many of them, but again, they should be opt in, such things should never come bundled in with a big and highly expected mod.

 

That is an option for the mod designer of course.   Since it is generally in bad form to use another mod author's assets without acknowledgment, "bundling" shouldn't occur in most mods.   Will you point to a specific mod that "bundles" as example?.    For example, AAF has modules for certain fetishes that require you to download individually.   There may be "hooks" in that mod (for easy of incorporating the other mods), but AAF wouldn't, by itself, be a "slave" mod.   

 

As for the "opt in", what do you mean?    Generally, the title, category, description of the mod and its required support mods should give a person enough info to not click on "view file" where they may see screen captures of distressing (to them) images.   Are you suggesting that there be a built in filter to filter out those kinds of mods?    There a feature like that already and I use it as some modders are blocked from my view, though that was based on their egregious behavior, rather than mods).  

 

You have been here long enough (since 2014), so perhaps I am not seeing what you are seeing so a follow up post would be most welcome.

 

Edit:  I just read about the controversy and  now I may have a better understanding.   That mod was a total rebuild using either assets with permission or development of their own assets using FO4 engine.   However, the "blow up" issue was what appeared to be illegal activity (underage sex).   As for the other distasteful things that might appear (slavery, prostitution, murder, arson, destruction of private property, etc.)  precedence, for now, seems to support mods that affect those things, as they already appear in the game itself. 

[Mars1991]

37 minutes ago, steelpanther24 said:

 

That is an option for the mod designer of course.   Since it is generally in bad form to use another mod author's assets without acknowledgment, "bundling" shouldn't occur in most mods.   Will you point to a specific mod that "bundles" as example?.    For example, AAF has modules for certain fetishes that require you to download individually.   There may be "hooks" in that mod (for easy of incorporating the other mods), but AAF wouldn't, by itself, be a "slave" mod.   

 

As for the "opt in", what do you mean?    Generally, the title, category, description of the mod and its required support mods should give a person enough info to not click on "view file" where they may see screen captures of distressing (to them) images.   Are you suggesting that there be a built in filter to filter out those kinds of mods?    There a feature like that already and I use it as some modders are blocked from my view, though that was based on their egregious behavior, rather than mods).  

 

You have been here long enough (since 2014), so perhaps I am not seeing what you are seeing so a follow up post would be most welcome.

 

Edit:  I just read about the controversy and  now I may have a better understanding.   That mod was a total rebuild using either assets with permission or development of their own assets using FO4 engine.   However, the "blow up" issue was what appeared to be illegal activity (underage sex).   As for the other distasteful things that might appear (slavery, prostitution, murder, arson, destruction of private property, etc.)  precedence, for now, seems to support mods that affect those things, as they already appear in the game itself. 

There is a very clear delineation there, IMHO it's better not to try mixing sex mods with regular mods in one packet but if you have to do it then being that explicit is really bad idea. The mod had to be rebuilt from the ground up because some modder could not keep his fetishes out of it. Making mods that use other mods as a base is pretty common, not sure what permissions are needed but i would say if you want to add such things to a popular mod make it a separate file. Mods on this site are opt in because you have to actively seek them out. At that point seeing something that is offensive to you is really on you. What i am against is "hiding" or "burying" such content within larger mods where people can unknowingly stumble on it.

[steelpanther24]

4 hours ago, Mars1991 said:

There is a very clear delineation there, IMHO it's better not to try mixing sex mods with regular mods in one packet but if you have to do it then being that explicit is really bad idea. The mod had to be rebuilt from the ground up because some modder could not keep his fetishes out of it. Making mods that use other mods as a base is pretty common, not sure what permissions are needed but i would say if you want to add such things to a popular mod make it a separate file. Mods on this site are opt in because you have to actively seek them out. At that point seeing something that is offensive to you is really on you. What i am against is "hiding" or "burying" such content within larger mods where people can unknowingly stumble on it.

Ah ok, yes I see your point now, but I doubt it needs to be rebuilt.    For FO4 (and all of them really) that have children in them, there is an "invulnerable" toggle in their dat file.   It is different than the "protected" toggle, where a protected NPC can be "killed", but they will revive automatically.   There was an issue with a mod here that ran into the same issue.   The dev pulled it and added the "invulnerable state" back in and it was back up.  However, Nexus, given recent management policies, may require one of their programmers to go through the code, line by line.  

 

In any event, I think most people will agree with embedded sexual content of a questionable nature.     It seems to me that most of the mods that make my game "adult" are ones that are not "accidental" items.  

[Heinos]

the real thing is that what i've seen about the frontier was like yes lets put this and that make it better, without thinking of the risks it could have and did brought.
it attemped to make see that sexual thing are funny and yeah... that does not work like that, especially if you want to sell sex like an everyday thing... like the deathclaw sex-pun

that was the kind of things why god doesn't care now for us

 

also the politic propaganda it make it even worse because you can't join a whatever it was clan because they do bad things, and you can enslave a girl called america to have a fetish with her foot later....

 

it literally makes adult mods like a normal thing... if i miss something lets say im just wasting time

[Guest]

I'm confused. What happened? Sex was included in Frontier?

[Guest Shadd Ashborn]

Yes. Absolutely yes.

 

Coomer mods and normal mods need to be separate. Including dark themes is one thing, putting asian waifus with personal creepy fetishes to mod that pretends to be serious - is other.

[Mars1991]

7 hours ago, endgame † addiction said:

I'm confused. What happened? Sex was included in Frontier?

Among other things there is an option to emotionally manipulate a 16 year old girl called America into becoming your sex slave. This is no exaggeration, the whole conversation sounds like it was lifted straight from a BDSM fic.

[Guest Shadd Ashborn]

Also Mae dialogues have horrific lines. An while they pretend America to be 18, Mae is certainly underage and proves it in her dialogue. 

 

 

[Wired]

1 hour ago, Shadd Ashborn said:

Also Mae dialogues have horrific lines. An while they pretend America to be 18, Mae is certainly underage and proves it in her dialogue. 

 

The whole female population in Frontier either catched a horny virus and acts like that or just cringy. (the legion officer one for example)

America and Mae are just isolated cases with the most outrageous for normies fetishes (slavery and 17 year olds) which gets so much flak that everything else (bad derivative post-modernist fanfic writing, awful balance, pew-pew gameplay, consistency problems, worldspace design, it's a long list) just flies under the radar.

[Guest Shadd Ashborn]

44 minutes ago, Wired said:

The whole female population in Frontier either catched a horny virus and acts like that or just cringy. (the legion officer one for example)

 

Yes. And this is what ruins all good parts of the mod, all male personalities are ripped from modern shooters, female personalities are ripped from hetai games.

 

Awful.

[Guest]

Wow Mae looks like she has diarrhea.

 

@Wired

 

I read on Reddit about how Frontier is very unstable and has really bad dialogue.

[Darkpig]

I can't believe I didn't see this thread before. Well slavery bad kay?

 

Okay. Now what? CHEESE CANNON!

 

Sorry I'm leaving, I'm leaving.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

Sorry for the kind of sort of necropost. I just didn't want to express my opinions over something I don't know.

Generally I care very little for New Vegas mods scene as most people seems to have left. Yet for some reason people kept talking about this mod & all I've heard is 13 yr old sex slave concubine to the Legion & I was just like "I don't see any problem at all, sounds exactly like something the Legion would. So I assume you'll get to kill that guy & save the 13 yr old girl & hurray, you're the hero of the frontier blah blah blah war never changes!".

So if I understand correctly, there are 2 NPCs. 1 is named America but she may or may not be underage but a birthday card which may or may not be too old to be reliable says that she is & you can verbally abuse her into making her your slave.

The other is an NPC named Mae who said something like "I can't wait to be 18 so I can have drugs & do sex" in the text but the voice actress didn't say it & how she's sarcastically said she'll let you take her virginity for telling her that her brother is sick.

So..
America sounds like people just want to be upset for the sake of being upset. Mae sounds like a parody of some sort of hentai artist on Tumblr? (I assume from the hair colour) so I assume the mod team either wants to take jab at their artist friend or they really hate this artist & just want to put this artist on public display. I can understand that publicly roasting someone by making them a bad NPC in a mod is a dick move, I can understand the dark undertones about the life of America. To me, where the mod team fails is to give enough hints about America. With not enough hints, people can & will jump to the conclusion of her being underage. I get it that the world of Fallout is supposed to be a dark place. Slavery in general is a bad practice, if the birthday card wants to hint that America is still young & you're a big bad monster for enslaving a young girl. Well, what are the actual consequence of that? So if that birthday card is supposed to be a punishment, it's so obvious it missed the mark entirely.

I guessed I'll never know if she's actually underage now since the mod has been removed & reuploaded with a lot of things removed. But I supposed this little controversy did grabbed my attention back to the New Vegas modding scene. But alas, just to realize it's actually nothing. I am disappointed, even. I thought I'll get to kill some rapist pedophiles & save young girls so I could become the hero of the frontier.

But I do agree with you, if someone on Loverslab wanted to do something like the frontier but a lot darker & more fucked up. I'll be all over it.

[Super Villain]

The slavery issue in regards to America at the end of the day is plain & simple peak immersion, and in line with Fallout lore such as Bumble from Little Lamplight that you can sell into slavery. Lets just keep it real, in a post-nuclear war ravaged America, or any land for that matter it would be a anything-goes, do whatever the fuck you want.. kill, steal, rape, pillage & ravage till the sun goes down & after. And yes, in such a world there would be "underage girls" enslaved as has been the case throughout human history along many other things todays society clutches their pearls over. My guess is some woke SJW while sippin his/her Soy Latte got triggered by these scenes in The Frontier & made a issue out of it. Fuck'em, I still have the original with the update before it was pulled. I keep the classics, not interested some censored bend the knee version. 

[FauxFurry]

5 hours ago, A~Dark~Place said:

The slavery issue in regards to America at the end of the day is plain & simple peak immersion, and in line with Fallout lore such as Bumble from Little Lamplight that you can sell into slavery. Lets just keep it real, in a post-nuclear war ravaged America, or any land for that matter it would be a anything-goes, do whatever the fuck you want.. kill, steal, rape, pillage & ravage till the sun goes down & after. And yes, in such a world there would be "underage girls" enslaved as has been the case throughout human history along many other things todays society clutches their pearls over. My guess is some woke SJW while sippin his/her Soy Latte got triggered by these scenes in The Frontier & made a issue out of it. Fuck'em, I still have the original with the update before it was pulled. I keep the classics, not interested some censored bend the knee version. 

It was probably a combination of similar individuals to those whom you mentioned (the surface details such as attire, diet or even 'culture' are irrelevant to the way that many people react to given things, as much as that may surprise or even infuriate them, especially when it means that they are 'no better' than another group of people whom they see themselves as being more enlightened than), people annoyed that it came across as poorly written and people who are afraid of being associated with people who endorse things that could harm their reputations or even just tolerate intolerable things in works of fiction.

[Nessa]

Here's what I find astounding: all the NPCs are FREAKING UGLY. Give me a break, even when I was modding FONV we were able to spruce up the NPCs. This is a "modern" mod and everyone is a potato head!? ?

 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Nessa said:

Here's what I find astounding: all the NPCs are FREAKING UGLY. Give me a break, even when I was modding FONV we were able to spruce up the NPCs. This is a "modern" mod and everyone is a potato head!? ?

 

 

 

But, but only the inside counts.

[Mars1991]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:46 AM, A~Dark~Place said:

The slavery issue in regards to America at the end of the day is plain & simple peak immersion, and in line with Fallout lore such as Bumble from Little Lamplight that you can sell into slavery. Lets just keep it real, in a post-nuclear war ravaged America, or any land for that matter it would be a anything-goes, do whatever the fuck you want.. kill, steal, rape, pillage & ravage till the sun goes down & after. And yes, in such a world there would be "underage girls" enslaved as has been the case throughout human history along many other things todays society clutches their pearls over. My guess is some woke SJW while sippin his/her Soy Latte got triggered by these scenes in The Frontier & made a issue out of it. Fuck'em, I still have the original with the update before it was pulled. I keep the classics, not interested some censored bend the knee version. 

Eh, i don't have a problem with the concept really, it happens in other Fallout games. What i have a problem with is it being so explicit. Besides i don't find it believable, it sounds like a scene from a BDSM porno, which is ok to get your rocks off but we all know that's not how it actually works. It just smells of someone trying to sneak their fetish in under plausible deniability. I saw such scenes many times before, i am not fooled.

[Nessa]

23 hours ago, Mars1991 said:

What i have a problem with is it being so explicit. Besides i don't find it believable, it sounds like a scene from a BDSM porno, which is ok to get your rocks off but we all know that's not how it actually works. It just smells of someone trying to sneak their fetish in under plausible deniability. I saw such scenes many times before, i am not fooled.

 

FONV was explicit too. You've got straight and gay sex slaves, one woman raped the hell out of then burned nearly to death, a mom forced into sex so her kid won't get killed, actual sex bots, and on and on. FONV was a lot messier on the "dreaded" SEX issue than even FO3 at least overtly.  FO3 was very messy too if you thought about it at all. (Which is more than Bethsoft did of course. Not sure "thinking" is something they do. ?) Little Lamplight alone is far worse from a pearl clutching standpoint. I mean come on, a normal group of devs capable of thought would stop at some point and think "Hey, wait! Where are the new kids coming from??" I wonder! Hmm.... ??

 

From what I've seen of the original Frontier, coupled with the authors reactions....  it's like they were putting in LL style dialog (or perhaps even worse ?) while trying to have some kind of moral high ground that they aren't as bad as "those LL sorts". All that plus their nauseating corporate speak announcements and I think they got exactly what they deserved.

 

For having a supposed moral high ground they sure capitulated fast too! So much for artistic integrity. ? Even though it was poorly written, I'd at least have some respect if they told everyone complaining to *&$%-off. At least have a real Fallout style reaction instead of: "We're sorry! Here's some bats. Tie us up and please beat us!" ... Then again, maybe that is the more fallout style reaction. Depends on the mods doesn't it? ? ?

[Kuroyami]

While I haven't yet played with the mod, mostly due to the file size last I checked, though I might get to it at some point.

 

But I think there is a certain, barrier that exists when it comes to certain forms of media, especially video games. You have a developer release a game with very mature content? To an extent, that can easily be considered fine - such as being able to stream a game like Conan Exiles, with the full nudity on, on Twitch, and that is apparently fine. The same likely goes for other game that have similar content - i.e it is a part of the released game. But even if the games content skirts the line, and that is okay, say you have a mod that extends the content, that arguably enhances the intent of the scene - suddenly streaming it or a video on Youtube is a problem. Understandable, sure. But it seems that some content is fine, so long as it seems not too, overt. Point an issue out verbally? Okay. Actually put the time and effort to put in full view, something that is clearly suggested to be BAD, and it isn't the framing that is the problem - it's the camera focusing on it at all, or for too long, which gets even worse when that camera is in the player's hands. 

 

Bit of potential spoilers here...

Spoiler

Take the scene in the Witcher 3, where the player can see full well what the character of Whoreson Junior actually is. The argument could be made that the scene is literally too much. That if the room was just bloody, with no bodies, you would get the point, but not stabbed with it. Sure, but then you don't know the target of his effective abuses and/or murders. Sure, you would have the previous comment from Radovid that tells you his preferences, but that is pointing the camera at something briefly, and moving it away, so you could technically forget upon finding the man, and the scene then would have a lot less impact. Does the scene suggest, all all, that what Junior is doing is in any way, right? Nope. Yet the same complaint I have not heard against say, the quest wherein Priscilla is attacked, and later others, including one you walk in on(albeit a distraction, something that can easily get some, myself included, pissed off enough to think this is the guy). The framing is the same - the murders are clearly wrong, as is the intent behind them, but sure, this one, if done to completion, ends in a boss fight - an an easy way to consider that outcome "right", which I don't disagree with. But with Junior? That quest, or part of a quest ends with a simple choice - kill him, or let him live, knowing his life gets worse from there. 

All the time you have all call for deep, complex, detail-rich stories, but when you give them exactly that, there are always those who will say it is too much - but only because they don't like that flavor they asked for. Or it's just that they don't want that(no matter the specifics) kind of detail, even if they can otherwise enjoy and admire a mature, well-thought out story. Again, a camera pointed at something for "too long", or at all.

 

As for Fallout though - you can have New Vegas with a major faction that practices slavery, indoctrination, etc, and that is fine, since it is a part of the base game. The same goes for some of the other mentioned bits of content. Even if people can complain about it, or simply not like the aforementioned content, there simply isn't or won't be the same revulsion against it that can easily exist with a mod that adds in the same effective level of content, even if said content only expands upon and goes further than what is already there. 

 

Simple point though. Put a strip club in a game, with some level of displayed nudity, and while some might not like it, it might be seen as less of a problem. But say you have that exact same club in a game, but no matter how provocative the dancers are, if they are at least wearing bikini's, it takes things down a bit, where there is much less of a problem. But then you have a mod that adds in the nudity, and suddenly some consider the mod in the wrong, even if it does not at all seem unfitting for where it is. 

 

But as for the Frontier, I would be far more likely to judge it on the progression of it's content, not exactly the content itself. Say if a easily hateable character(considering their actions, dialog, background, etc) is always out of the players reach, and if you can deal with them at all, it's only when the game allows it, no matter what your character can do. 

[RexxingFlex]

Before I say anything I'd like to state that I have never bothered to look at this mod when it was available! Mods that get too big are usually not my thing anyway, and having read the description of this one kinda gave me "A too much trouble to be worth it" vibe!

 

That being said! Having seen some reviews of The Frontier, some of which were rather surprisingly in depth (especially for a mod), and also having combed through the some comment sections! I've learned some very.....let's say surprising facts about the staff and their work process! Like the rumor of the main developer never actually having finished NV, which is absolutely astonishing to me! As far as I am concerned that detail alone makes the rest of controversies pale by comparison, because it implies things that now make perfect sense in hindsight. I honestly think it looks like the Coomer stuff was the least of this mods problems. It was merely a symptom of a much MUCH larger problem.

 

From what I've seen this thing has that distinct "Modder wants to have their toes licked" stench to it, you know what I'm talking about! The "Criticize my work even a little and I'll go full psycho on you" thing!

I think this mod was where this particular phenomena was taken to it's highest level. This apparently was amplified further by it having several of these nutjob developers on the this team, now of course all having bailed like the narcistic cowards they likely are, and leaving the work to be fixed and finished by the more normal part of the team that was likely left in the dark about most goings on.

 

Really I have to disagree on this one. 

[Guest]

I pretty much don't care where this mod goes. And what happened. I remember it being worked on for a couple years right after I opted out of FNV. Never was enthusiastic about it then nor now. Maybe if it was a FO3 mod, I would try it out. But it's for New Vegas and that is a no go zone for me. I too never finished the game. i gave up after helping Mr. House with his vault of robots and the game crashing constantly after that. I spent my last days taking screenshots in Goodsprings over and over and I found myself so bored of the game I couldn't last 5 minutes before logging off. That was way back in 2014.

[Jekson383]

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