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NightShade

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have been playing dota/hon for about 5-6 years now. Dota 2 is slightly slower paced than hon with lol being at a near snails pace, so when I got my beta invite the transition was a pretty easy one. Dota 2 is crazy fun, but I will say, coming from hon, I have found that high level dota players dont quite stack up to high level hon players and lol is just well... lol.

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well for me, just like you LoL is just...lol. but i really like dota and it is just not comparable to the other two :) but thats my opinion. for now, the hero pool for dota 2 is just sad but its steadily climbing. im going to wait for more people and heroes before transitioning to dota2. as for pacing. dota is the absolute best imo. just watch pro gamers play on the tourneys. you should watch replays of the recent dota 2 tourney. while some are a bore, the rest wont be as slow paced as you think. as for LoL, its down in the dumps! this game is bad for competitive gaming. im surprised to know that some company actually sponsored LoL tourneys.

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I have been playing dota/hon for about 5-6 years now. Dota 2 is slightly slower paced than hon with lol being at a near snails pace' date=' so when I got my beta invite the transition was a pretty easy one. Dota 2 is crazy fun, but I will say, coming from hon, I have found that high level dota players dont quite stack up to high level hon players and lol is just well... lol.

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I can assure you its just a illusion

High Lv Dota players are at least the same as HON, if not better, considering you have much more choice in Dota allstar.

 

LOL is on the other hand a complete different game, using Dota's concept to play will crash and burn for sure.

And no LOL is actually quiet quick paced if you choose to.

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I think all three games are great games, just for different types of players, although the fact that every person in LOL can essentially buy a blink ability for their hero is a deal breaker for me. I watched the Dota 2 million dollar tournament and although I completely understand it was its first tournament with a limited hero pool and players complained about lag, but just about every game was farm fest and I havent been keeping up with any other tournaments if they have even had anymore.

 

I also pretty much agree with you hinugundam as there is no real way to tell which game produces better players and you can easily make the argument that most (if not all good hon players) played dota first. Also, since I just recently got my key, its probably safe to say I have been thrown in against all levels of all players, so skill is all over the place right now. Hero pool doesnt really make for much better players in my opinion, just makes the competitive scene much more interesting, even more so if you consider that Hon has 93 heroes and Dota has 104.

 

My mention on fast pace comes less from the meta game and more from unit response time or the game just straight up moves at a slower pace so you have more time to make decisions, which for me makes the game so much easier.

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I also pretty much agree with you hinugundam as there is no real way to tell which game produces better players and you can easily make the argument that most (if not all good hon players) played dota first. Also' date=' since I just recently got my key, its probably safe to say I have been thrown in against all levels of all players, so skill is all over the place right now. Hero pool doesnt really make for much better players in my opinion, just makes the competitive scene much more interesting, even more so if you consider that Hon has 93 heroes and Dota has 104.

 

My mention on fast pace comes less from the meta game and more from unit response time or the game just straight up moves at a slower pace so you have more time to make decisions, which for me makes the game so much easier.

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Not hero pool, item selection, there's a LOT more activation gear choice in DOTA, makes it much more complicated.

Do you know in league battle there's a rule taht only 1 necro book is allowed?

 

No lol don't have more responds time, unless you never played LOL at a real game, don't use the low lv game to judge a game, LOL was designed so low lv is for newbies, you will only get the game once you hit a high rank and players you play with are acutally good instead of casual dummies.

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I only played LOL for about 2 weeks then uninstalled. I just dont want to deal with all the free to play crap like buying heroes and such. I wanna buy the game and have everything available, although Hon did just recently switch to LOLs ftp system, but I already bought the game so I get to bypass all of that.

 

Trust me the noob factor in Hon is as present as it is in any game. I am currently sitting at 1946 MMR in Hon if you have any idea where thats at on the rating system, but generally player skill starts to drop fairly dramatically once you start to get south of 1800. The vast majority of players sit around the 1500-1700 area.

 

As for items, both Hon and Dota have items that neither have, but its only like 1 or 2, the item pool for the most part is pretty much identical. The only item I think really makes a difference in either game is probably the smoke of deceit.

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i never played HoN but i can say that item usage and skill abuse is what makes the dota better for competitive gaming and why it requires a higher skillset. its old engine actually opened up ways to dodge skills and do thing that LoL(nad probably HoN) can never do. speaking of communities. LoL community is just plain bad. backdooring, trash talking, afk-ing the whole game. well in dota, there's little to no noobs at all. the learning curve is so steep that new players stop playing after few matches. this is one of the advantages of not having a tutorial ingame. so decent matches are almost guaranteed. people do trash talk here too though.

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As for items' date=' both Hon and Dota have items that neither have, but its only like 1 or 2, the item pool for the most part is pretty much identical. The only item I think really makes a difference in either game is probably the smoke of deceit.

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Trust me when I tell you LOL got nothing but noobs at low lv.

in 2 weeks you will never get to play a REAL game that involves people that acutally knows how to play.

You can't even get a decent jungler out at that level.

A high end game and a low end game is not the same, not for DOTA, not for LOL.

 

 

there's little to no noobs at all. the learning curve is so steep that new players stop playing after few matches. this is one of the advantages of not having a tutorial ingame. so decent matches are almost guaranteed. people do trash talk here too though.

 

No, LoL intentionally cleared the way to dodge the skills

Flash use to work the same as blink, but they removed it.

 

Backdoor is legal in both DOTA and LOL, if you can do it, do it.

How is it bad?

afking , leaving and trash talking are both MASSIVE in EVERY ONLINE GAME THAT EXISTS.

At least LOL FORCE you to stay in the game so you can't just rage quit and join another like DOTA.

You almost make it sounds like you never played DOTA on B.net or Garena.

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As for items' date=' both Hon and Dota have items that neither have, but its only like 1 or 2, the item pool for the most part is pretty much identical. The only item I think really makes a difference in either game is probably the smoke of deceit.

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Trust me when I tell you LOL got nothing but noobs at low lv.

in 2 weeks you will never get to play a REAL game that involves people that acutally knows how to play.

You can't even get a decent jungler out at that level.

A high end game and a low end game is not the same, not for DOTA, not for LOL.

 

 

there's little to no noobs at all. the learning curve is so steep that new players stop playing after few matches. this is one of the advantages of not having a tutorial ingame. so decent matches are almost guaranteed. people do trash talk here too though.

 

Not really, LoL intentionally cleared out the skill dodge to avoid overpower. Flash used to work as blink, but they removed the dodge.

 

Backdooring is legal in both DOTA and LOL, if you can do it, do it.

How is it bad?

afking , leaving and trash talking are both MASSIVE in EVERY ONLINE GAME THAT EXISTS.

At least LOL FORCE you to stay in the game so you can't just rage quit and join another like DOTA.

You almost make it sounds like you never played DOTA on B.net.

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As for items' date=' both Hon and Dota have items that neither have, but its only like 1 or 2, the item pool for the most part is pretty much identical. The only item I think really makes a difference in either game is probably the smoke of deceit.

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Trust me when I tell you LOL got nothing but noobs at low lv.

in 2 weeks you will never get to play a REAL game that involves people that acutally knows how to play.

You can't even get a decent jungler out at that level.

A high end game and a low end game is not the same, not for DOTA, not for LOL.

 

 

there's little to no noobs at all. the learning curve is so steep that new players stop playing after few matches. this is one of the advantages of not having a tutorial ingame. so decent matches are almost guaranteed. people do trash talk here too though.

 

Not really' date=' LoL intentionally cleared out the skill dodge to avoid overpower. Flash used to work as blink, but they removed the dodge.

 

Backdooring is legal in both DOTA and LOL, if you can do it, do it.

How is it bad?

afking , leaving and trash talking are both MASSIVE in EVERY ONLINE GAME THAT EXISTS.

At least LOL FORCE you to stay in the game so you can't just rage quit and join another like DOTA.

You almost make it sounds like you never played DOTA on B.net.

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and yet OP it still is. everyone with Flash would easily beat anyone without Flash. whut? better update your maps man. the towers regain a portion of their health if they are attacked without creeps to prevent backdoors. backdooring IS illegal in competitive matches. in pubs sure no one cares, it just shows bad sportsmanship. but then again i wouldnt want to win matches by backdooring would i? how is it bad? well maybe the fact that they are a shortcut to destroy the Throne/Tree/Nexus and thus winning the game straight up without much work and skill have something to do with it. how do LoL force you to stay in game anyway? the last few times i played i did see some people leave the game without reconnecting back. oh i do play A LOT in Garena. i prefer RGC rather than Bnet actually. only time im using Bnet is when im forced to use it (Starcraft 2) :D

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and yet OP it still is. everyone with Flash would easily beat anyone without Flash. whut? better update your maps man. the towers regain a portion of their health if they are attacked without creeps to prevent backdoors. backdooring IS illegal in competitive matches. in pubs sure no one cares' date=' it just shows bad sportsmanship. but then again i wouldnt want to win matches by backdooring would i? how is it bad? well maybe the fact that they are a shortcut to destroy the Throne/Tree/Nexus and thus winning the game straight up without much work and skill have something to do with it. how do LoL force you to stay in game anyway? the last few times i played i did see some people leave the game without reconnecting back. oh i do play A LOT in Garena. i prefer RGC rather than Bnet actually. only time im using Bnet is when im forced to use it (Starcraft 2) :D

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I don't use Flash on either my main character, Renekton or Blitz

And I am a platinum. Flash Beats EVERYONE? don't kid yourself man.

How high rank were you at to say something like this?

 

They are made to make backdooring MORE DIFFICULT, not IMPOSSIBLE.

The regenerate is limited to an amount and you can still kill it if you have good gear.

If he didn't want you to backdoor it, he would made it completely invulnerable without creeps nearby

BACKDOORING IS COMPLETE LEGAL. Read the rule you can find in quest log. Its the guy who got backdoored's fault that they let you waltz in there and backdoor it.

The only backdooring that's not allowed is teleport in with Prophet, since there's no way to prevent this backdoor.

 

You can't Log into another game with the same account/IP if you quit in LOL, so that means he is stuck in there even if he leaves, you can't just go join another game.

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I am loving all of this back and forth. I play HON, Nightshade plays DOTA, hinugundam plays LOL and we all could care less about DOTA 2, and on top of that it would seem that we are all high-level players of our respective games.

 

For flash... allowing every player in the game to have a blink ability can really pigeonhole the community and even with a 4 minute cooldown I would assume most games are heavy on farm and tend to be longer in length. I would get phased out if most games were like that. Long games are fairly rare in HON and that includes competitive games, I love all the constant movement around the map and ganking.

 

As for backdooring, I dont do it. The super regen that towers get when attacked without any creeps around really only works for early to mid game and I think that is a good thing, as I dont play my games to last for 2 hours, because the other team wants to farm all day and wait for Kongor/Roshan to respawn. Once you get to that point you're just taunting the other team to use any means necessary to win. Still... backdooring is pretty lame and although I say that I dont do it, it doesnt mean that I havent done it before. The match seems to lose a bit of its prestige or greatness and doesn't seem to really matter anymore or feels like a waste of time. Winning just for the sake of winning is boring and for me its always more important how you got there. A lot of wind is taken out of a win when its not really earned or deserved. Granted not everyone feels this way and thats just fine.

 

Item and skill abuse is as present as ever in all 3 games and they're always completely situational. I dont really see any special or innovative use for these things in Dota that both HON and LOL dont do just as well. The only thing DOTA really has over either game is the whole tenure thing.

 

I haven't played DOTA(for a prolonged amount of time) in a long time, but I played the shit out of it for a good 5-6 years, but trust me play HON for awhile and then go back to DOTA or LOL and just see how slow that shit is, its like playing in slowmotion. And I dont mean that to knock either game, and but I just cant see it any other way.

 

Also, HOLY SHIT WALL OF TEXT! I apologize in advance.

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I haven't played DOTA(for a prolonged amount of time) in a long time' date=' but I played the shit out of it for a good 5-6 years, but trust me play HON for awhile and then go back to DOTA or LOL and just see how slow that shit is, its like playing in slowmotion. And I dont mean that to knock either game, and but I just cant see it any other way.

 

Also, HOLY SHIT WALL OF TEXT! I apologize in advance.

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I play Dota too, just not as much as before.

I went pro on Dota Allstar for a while too, way harder than I am in LOL

Yes I am a very high rank player, in DOTA I was one of those you see in tournaments.

In LoL i am the top 0.2% of the player population, says the game developer.

 

The game is only heavy in farm when its a official Tourney battle, which is the same for every game. LoL is actually more intense than Allstar in this category.

A 4 min CD flash is not as useful as you might think when a LOT of character have blink/Blink like abilities.

And no, most LoL game end in less than 30 mins.

LoL is the most gank heavy of the 3 because it have the smallest map.

Lol is the most intense if you are talking about early fights

since there's jungle invade battle and lv2 gank that happens in 1 min after the game starts, earlier than creep spawns.

That's not counting the other system.

 

Its not how you feel, backdooring is written as a LEGAL action and is even necessary in some games when you get in a deadlock, when no one can get a actual upper hand and finish the game.

 

You can control extra units in DOTA means a lot more stratgy than the other 2. more tedious work, but the free roam extra units make a lot of difference.

 

And last, I have NO IDEA why you would even think LOL is slow when you can have the first group fight in less than a min after game starts, and a gank fight 2 mins after the game starts.

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Pro games in HON rarely showcase excessive amounts of farm, its more like they try to get as much as they can in the shortest amount of time possible. A lot of competitive games are under 30 minutes. The game just punishes you for every tiny little thing, get just a slight advantage and you can turn that into a large advantage in a very short amount of time, but make one misstep and its right back to square one. Its a lot of push and pull, which is what makes it so fun and interesting.

 

The point of backdooring was brought up more to prove how much of a dick move it tends to be. With there being a 2 buy back limit in HON you really dont run into a situation where backdooring is really necessary anymore. And no one is saying its illegal, except when in competitive play where it is indeed illegal. Whether its allowed or not isnt the point being made here.

 

What do you mean by extra creeps, like the summons various heroes have, or like the helm of the dominator or the necronomicon. Hon has all of these things. It has been quite awhile, but I dont remember LOL really having any summoned units, that still true?

 

The slowmotion thing isnt really an issue of both teams sitting on one side and farming all day. In HON in if you dont average at least 2 kills a minute your doing it wrong. Its more about just (this is what I feel anyway) that you have more time to make split second decisions, your not as punished for making a mistake or your not dead being a little out of position. Also in LOL, the fact that I cant deny creeps means I am spending a lot of time just standing around, which you could make the argument that maybe you can harass the enemy hero more, but to me its one less thing I have to worry about, so that means there is one less thing I have to divide my attention for. Maybe its better to say that HON is more crazy and LOL is more intimate, rather than fast and slow.

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That's JUST LIKE DOTA and LOL, there's no difference, you acutally have a longer farm time considering in LOL it normally ends at 10 and Allstar ends at 15

(yes, Allstar's standard for a good carry is you need to get a radiance at 15:00 minimum)

 

You can't even buy back in LOL and BD is still neccesary sometimes.

Its called DEAD LOCK because its DEAD LOCK, there's just nothing you can do about it.

 

No I am talking about how multi-lining in DOTA acutally works and helps.

Lol's summon is far less manuverable, but still exists.

 

Unless your enemy is crazy AND stupid, no way you can hit 2 kills a min for the entire game, ok?

LOL and Dota can be like that too if its a low end game, but no one make that kind retard mistake in High ends.

 

The reason why LOL removed deny is so its harder to control the creeps, giving you more chance to gank, which intensify the game and so you will acutally TRY to kill the other guy instead of denying all day in a high end game.

 

By high end I mean a ACTUAL high game, like a offical tourney battle.

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Haha, I am almost starting to wonder if you are just trolling me at this point.

 

You never stop farming in a game no matter how intense the game is, unless your mention on the 10 and 15 minute thing is when you consider the laning phase to end, but even that changes a bit each game, like maybe between 10-17 minutes depending on how the game is going.

 

I have played something like 2000 games in HON and I have actually never run into a game that couldn't be won at least somewhat normally.

 

I am still unsure on what you are exactly trying to say by multi-lining? Are you talking about a tri-lane, having a roamer, or just having a hero like chen be in one lane and his creeps in another? All these things can happen and do happen in HON and do work.

 

The statement "In HON if you dont average at least 2 kills a minute your doing it wrong." was meant more as sarcasm than the actual reality. Its probably closer to 1.5 kills a minute average. So in a 30 minute game you would have 40-50 kills, although having 60 in that timeframe isnt really rare. A 1.5 kill per minute average in a pro game isnt that rare either and its not due to mistakes, HON is just really aggressive.

 

Still not being able to deny creeps means its less that you have to do. Simplifying the game does not make it more intense. Having some control over the creep wave is a huge dynamic especially when it means keeping the creep wave at your tower during the entire laning phase. It also promotes ganking and team fighting. Creep position has a significant affect on player level and farming potential. It forces people to roam to other lanes, whether that is to help a losing lane or maybe the player cant approach the lane so they go and help their other teamates lanes. This can of course be done the same way by harrassing and killing the enemies heroes, but I see no reason why I should be limited to just that.

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Haha' date=' I am almost starting to wonder if you are just trolling me at this point.

 

You never stop farming in a game no matter how intense the game is, unless your mention on the 10 and 15 minute thing is when you consider the laning phase to end, but even that changes a bit each game, like maybe between 10-17 minutes depending on how the game is going.

 

I have played something like 2000 games in HON and I have actually never run into a game that couldn't be won at least somewhat normally.

 

I am still unsure on what you are exactly trying to say by multi-lining? Are you talking about a tri-lane, having a roamer, or just having a hero like chen be in one lane and his creeps in another? All these things can happen and do happen in HON and do work.

 

The statement "In HON if you dont average at least 2 kills a minute your doing it wrong." was meant more as sarcasm than the actual reality. Its probably closer to 1.5 kills a minute average. So in a 30 minute game you would have 40-50 kills, although having 60 in that timeframe isnt really rare. A 1.5 kill per minute average in a pro game isnt that rare either and its not due to mistakes, HON is just really aggressive.

 

Still not being able to deny creeps means its less that you have to do. Simplifying the game does not make it more intense. Having some control over the creep wave is a huge dynamic especially when it means keeping the creep wave at your tower during the entire laning phase. It also promotes ganking and team fighting. Creep position has a significant affect on player level and farming potential. It forces people to roam to other lanes, whether that is to help a losing lane or maybe the player cant approach the lane so they go and help their other teamates lanes. This can of course be done the same way by harrassing and killing the enemies heroes, but I see no reason why I should be limited to just that.

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Hardcore players don't bother with trolling forums.

 

Yes that meant Laning phase was over, in LOL there's a faster timer because there exists dragon.

 

Only 2000? MY dota allstar game count alone is over 10000.

That's not counting other games, and yes I had no life.

Yes there are many dead lock situations where backdoor is neccesary.

 

Multi-laning as in fighting multiple lane as YOU, not about your teammate, just you. Only DOTA allows this since you can have more than just your 1 hero at your disposal that works separatly.

 

Like I said, even in Lol and Dota that can happen, "BUT THOSE GAMES ARE WHERE RETARDS PLAY". Any pro game will not have ridiculous kill counts, not even in HoN.

 

 

No it means you need to Force out your enemy SOME OTHER WAY.Not denying all day. Having the ability to deny means you spends far more time dealing with the creeps than with the hero in a actual league game.

And no, LoL's no-deny is what FORCE people to leave the lane, because

staying up there with pushing creep is never a good idea.

And you obviously doesn't know about Lol's jungler.

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The kill counts are like that in HoN for the majority of games whether it be noob, competitive or otherwise. Not sure how a game with a higher kill count means all of those players are bad either. The only games that tend to have low kill counts are really lopsided ones.

 

HoN players dont really spend all day denying, not sure where your getting that from... the focus is on getting creep kills and dealing with the enemy heroes. Denies arent generally a priority, just one more thing you can do and for me adds more to the game.

 

The only dota hero I remember being like that was meepo, but he is still just one hero. I dont really see how you can control more than one hero at time in a 5v5 as that wouldnt be a 5v5 match anymore. Its hard to follow what your trying to say sometimes.

 

The 2000 game count comes from after HoN went retail, so about a year and a half now. Its not counting HoN beta or any of the prior years I played DOTA. I only mentioned the the game count to cement the fact that you almost never run into backdooring in HoN. Sorry if it came across as anything else.

 

I see can your side of it, but for some reason I feel like your mostly ignoring mine, so I think I will just stop right here. Good luck in all your future games! :)

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You have answered your first question yourself.

Good players kill people without dying on lane.

So why would you keep getting kill counts when the enemy already died and is in a large disadvantage, as you also stated? The only possible reason left is because they are stupid.

 

I didn't say HoN players, I said PRO guys in PRO games, not playing for fun, playing for win. Since denying is hurts much more than risking your neck doing harass.

 

You are ignoring all the hero with illusions and all the summon controls obviously.

 

Like I said, the 10000 is DOTA allstar ONLY, I played all 3 games and a lot of other similar DOta-Like game and I am taking the less count on DOTA-allstar, game count doesn't help when its me.

 

So this is why we have our difference, you are talking about guys slightly above average, I am talking about guys at the top of the player pyramid.

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Or... Maybe I wont stop right there. I thought the point of this thread was to discuss, not to point fingers and puff out our chest. Seems is missed the memo on that one, well here goes...

 

Good players kill people without dying on lane.

 

What types of games are pros playing, I mean I would go 15 and 0 if I smurfed too. You keep preaching about high level play, but all your saying is high level players get kills and never die. Apparently these types of players dont play against each other, because you cant have an all pro game were they only get kills and never die. The math simply does not work out.

 

Multi-laning as in fighting multiple lane as YOU, not about your teammate, just you. Only DOTA allows this since you can have more than just your 1 hero at your disposal that works separatly.

 

You also seem to be completely ignoring summons and illusions in that comment. Summoned units are not new heroes, nor are illusions. Nearly all summoned units and illusions last under a minute or less and they most certainly are not as strong as heroes. As I keep saying and as you keep ignoring, HoN has all of these things and in abundance. These summoned units and illusions on top of not lasting long dont teleport either. So "multi-laning" using these tools only really amounts to some extra jungle farm if the pro is in lane, or if some pro jungling is going on, they can be used to assist in harassing or ganking the other enemy heroes. Ezalor used to be able to summon a ball of light that could teleport, but they removed that a long time ago.

 

---->SOME<---- Notable exceptions:

 

Chen(as mentioned above) - Converted creeps are permant. - Hon equivalent, Ophelia

 

Syllabear - Spirit Bear(about as close to another hero a summoned unit can get) can teleport to the player, but not away and even if he could he cant attack without the player being right there(see radiance). - Hon equivalent, Wildsoul

 

Morphing - His illusion is slightly more powerful and he can teleport into his his created unit and again the unit cannot teleport by itself. - Hon hero with similiar ability, Silhouette(she actually swaps places though)

 

You also talk about how much focus is spent on ganking, roaming, and all the battling heroes do in the lanes, but deaths apparently rarely happen, but pros dont die, soooo... what was I saying again? I sense a contradiction here.

 

Pros either really suck at ganking or they spend all day polishing their own towers waiting for their courier to bring them more potions so they can have another vicious struggle were nothing happens. All that really sounds like is pros both stay on their own sides and hit creeps, and since pros cant deny either, pros what? Take a nap?

 

10000 games? For Dota Allstars only? Sounds like a king on a throne made of empty pizza boxes... I mean we're not even talking about the RoC versions here! I wasn't under the impression it took that long to get good and have completely skewed opinions.

 

I mentioned high kills counts, you said PAH! only big dummies make those kinds of noob mistakes. How does that help the discussion... Why dont you mention "WHY" lower kill counts are apart of the pros domain. One could point out something simple like map-awareness, but you dont. Its just FLAME ON!

 

Map-awareness helps alot, but when a pro sees a chance to initiate on an enemy, hes going to go in and his team is going follow. The other team isnt going to just stand there and get pounded either if they can help it. They will attempt to fight back and murder will ensue. If this isnt a full blown team fight, then you can bet, more often than not, there will be pros tping into the fight as well, creating more carnage. This happens alot in HoN, its called being aggressive, not being bad.

 

These debates?!?? can go on forever, and since they are vastly opinion based it makes a lot of sense when they do. However, the purpose is to express your points, while listening and trying to understand what the opposing side has to say. Both parties can also be on the same side, but maybe both think they should take differents paths that ultimately end in the same place. I am not saying one has to agree or even sort of agree, but it should be constructive, not "LEGAL."

 

Peace!

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