Skyrim: Embedded .esm... How is this even possible?

[cretin]

I have something here that confuses the hell out of me.  Six or seven months ago I removed the mod "Evil Lair of Hydra" from my game.  It's packaged up as a 600K .ESM and a couple scripts, and the .esm and scripts were removed completely.  Wiped out.  Eradicated.

 

Yet, in this savegame, even after several hundred (!) clean saves, there it is just across from Riverwood.  I can go in, the guardian pillars come out, I can attack them, read the book, get the key, and explore the lair.  It's all there, every bit of it.  Even the alternate entrance just outside Riverwood is there.

 

And yet, the bits just aren't there anymore in Data.  The .esm has completely embedded within this savegame.  The Lair does *not* show up for new games, or other characters.  It's just in this one long series of saves with this particular character.

 

How can an .esm embed itself into a savegame?  This is a big chunk of code.  Has anyone heard of this before?  Is it possible to remove?

 

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

Because it's a lair of evil. Once it taints you, it's there forever.

[Ark of Truth]

Because it's a lair of evil. Once it taints you, it's there forever.

 

 

Please only post if you have something useful to the matter at hand.

 

 

@Certin

 

If I remember correctly the mod saves the script inside your save file, make sure that you have deleted every to do with that mod as well. This includes the ESM and ESP if there is one.

[Arcueid Brunestud]

I don't if this going to help with the problem or not, but I found this on Nexus after someone told about it here.

 

How to REMOVE ALL embedded scripts from your savegame - Tutorial

 

 

I do have the mod but I don't want to install it because part of me too sceptical about it's file size which merely 500kb for a house mod, and the fact it is long abandoned and forgotten by it's own author.

 

But here what the script files were named;

SlaveDoorScript.pex

SlaveLeverArenaFightStart.pex

[cretin]

Thanks for the feedback.  But believe it or not, it's not a script issue.  I've even used that Nexus tool to zero out the entire script section, and the Lair is still in there.

 

So, to sum up:

1.  All traces of the mod (one .esm, two simple door scripts) are gone from Data.

2.  This is not a script issue, I've even zeroed out the script data in the savegame using the tool above, which is what motivated this post.  I really thought that would clean it out.  I have also used the orphaned reference deleter at http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/31724/ .  Nothing.

3.  The lair is fully in-place in this savegame, but not in new games or other savegames.

 

Based on the facts, it's become clear to me that this *esm* has embedded fully into my save.  Not scripts, and there's no .esp or other mod data involved; NO ADDITIONAL FILES related to this mod at all in Data.

 

I have never heard of this happening before.  I'm sure it has to do with being an .esm, and it's found a semi-official place in the savegame to embed.  But Wrye Bash agrees, when looking at the savegame, that it's not bound to the Evil Lair .esm at all.

 

But there it is.

 

Maddening.

 

[gregathit]

There are some real dangers when folks use esm files, especially to modify world spaces.  I would avoid any such mods at this time.  Unfortunately a reliable esm to esp changer is not yet ready so it isn't as simple as just switching it.

[cretin]

Thanks GT.  I'll chalk this up to "weird but not unimaginable".  I wonder if that's why Bethesda is hesitant to give us a map of the savegame format.  Because then they'd have to try to explain a lot of the bizarre and unpredictable behavior about the format, and a lot of lazy decisions as well.

 

Hell, it's probably just a tacked-on and unrecognizable version of the Morrowind save format.

 

[nekroskoma]

 

Because it's a lair of evil. Once it taints you, it's there forever.

 

 

Please only post if you have something useful to the matter at hand.

 

 

@Certin

 

If I remember correctly the mod saves the script inside your save file, make sure that you have deleted every to do with that mod as well. This includes the ESM and ESP if there is one.

 

 

if the script is running it embeds itself into your save. never make a savegame with mods you only want to tryout, i found this out the hard way well after i should have learned it already

[cretin]

if the script is running it embeds itself into your save. never make a savegame with mods you only want to tryout, i found this out the hard way well after i should have learned it already

Thank you, you speak the truth about saving crappy mods into your game.    But this is not a script problem.  This is an actual embedded world-space .esm, that has survived hundreds, possibly thousands of clean saves over the better part of a year.

 

Which kind of blows me away, because not many people speak of that like it's an actual thing.

 

It makes me wonder if I can zero it out by creating and loading an alternate Evil Lair of Hydra .esm with an emptied-out namespace.  Though now that I say it, that sounds pretty stupid as well.

 

[Symon]

Esms, esps and esss are very similar in format. I'd expect a save to contain records of changes to any esm/esp data you have (as a player) 'touched' in game. A set of 'over-rides' if you like.

 

Morrowind was notorious for keeping remnants in a save game and cleaning was an art (the notorious doubling bug, where you would see (and could open) two doors in the same arch!)

 

Oblivion was much better.

 

Sounds like Skyrim is a step back. You need to perform some kind of 'clean save' to remove that flock, if Skyrim has such a concept.

 

Ah, now Morrowind Enchanted Editor allowed you to open and edit saves. Helped out with issues like this. That said, removing esms from a running game is ALWAYS tricky. Why the received wisdom is 'When making a mod, only use an esm if you know why you want one and know what you are doing'. Rampant esmitis and esmifyingitus caused FO3 great reputational harm in a very short time.

[nekroskoma]

 

if

the script is running it embeds itself into your save. never make a

savegame with mods you only want to tryout, i found this out the hard

way well after i should have learned it already

Thank you, you speak the truth about saving crappy mods into your game.  

 But this is not a script problem.  This is an actual embedded

world-space .esm, that has survived hundreds, possibly thousands of

clean saves over the better part of a year.

 

Which kind of blows me away, because not many people speak of that like it's an actual thing.

 

It

makes me wonder if I can zero it out by creating and loading an

alternate Evil Lair of Hydra .esm with an emptied-out namespace.  Though

now that I say it, that sounds pretty stupid as well.

 

because its not a thing, both esp and esms are the same thing only with one flipped bit and a different file extension but the game sees still sees no difference

 

scripts and objects that have been altered (items moved or dropped py npc/player) stay in the save which is what racks up bloat when the game doesnt reset cells right (or ash piles dont get marked for deletion)

 

but if the objects are vanilla with scripts attached then i can see them sticking around i would say try this since it bascially zero fills the saved scripts in your .ess but before you do this go to qasmoke and "pcb" wait one month then save and then do whats at that link then load it afterwards and wait another month

 

if the stuff is still there then its not your save and something is still in your data directory from the mod

[cretin]

 

 

Which kind of blows me away, because not many people speak of that like it's an actual thing.

 

 

because its not a thing, both esp and esms are the same thing only with one flipped bit and a different file extension but the game sees still sees no difference

 

scripts and objects that have been altered (items moved or dropped py npc/player) stay in the save which is what racks up bloat when the game doesnt reset cells right (or ash piles dont get marked for deletion)

 

but if the objects are vanilla with scripts attached then i can see them sticking around i would say try this since it bascially zero fills the saved scripts in your .ess but before you do this go to qasmoke and "pcb" wait one month then save and then do whats at that link then load it afterwards and wait another month

 

if the stuff is still there then its not your save and something is still in your data directory from the mod

 

I appreciate your help but I've addressed this above.

 

I have run the tool you mentioned and eliminated the script data in my save.  I did this prior to posting about this issue, and correctly waited 30 days in qasmoke prior to and after the script purge.

 

This is *not* a script issue.  As Gregathit and Symon have indicated, what I'm seeing *is* possible.

 

All data associated with this mod has been long, long gone from the Data tree for many, many saves now.  It's gone.  Completely.  No longer exists.  The bits haven't existed in my Skyrim data folder for nearly a year and a thousand saves.  Additionally, all Papyrus data has been purged.  Zeroed per flexcreator's nuke-from-orbit mod on the Nexus.

 

Except wholly within this savegame, it has found a place to embed itself; nifs, forms, actors-- everything.

 

I know this is possible, because I'm experiencing it.  With a new game, it is gone.  Not in the world.  Only in this savegame series does it exist, and it exists completely, down to the last .nif.

[nekroskoma]

upload your save let me look at it

[Symon]

If there is a 'blank esm' available for Skyrim. you could copy that to exactly the same name/load order as the offending esm and try loading the save with that.

[cretin]

upload your save let me look at it

OK, brilliant.  I found it.  And you're right.  "It isn't a thing."

 

I was thinking how I could package this savegame up for you, when I have 244 active mods.  I figured I needed to purge every mod including DLCs, so you had a chance of loading it.  By eliminating all plugins, I found that the Lair disappeared.

 

"OK.  That means it's either piggybacking on another .esp or..."  Well, or nothing.  That had to be the answer.

 

So I grepped for "Hydra" across all .esps, .esms, and .bsas in the Data directory.  Lo and behold, there was an .esp in there innocuously titled "Mjoll.esp", which was an old, old Mjoll appearance mod.  Inside, it perfectly replicated the Lair.  I guess whoever made that, included the Lair in it, in its entirety.  I didn't see the Lair in new games due to Wrye Bash's save profiles.

 

So you nailed it by giving me enough motivation to figure it out, and my world-view about how .ESMs work has been restored.  

 

Hey, sorry for the firedrill, but thanks, everyone for your help!