ZeroListGram Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 I decided to post this question here, instead of the Technical Support forum, because the discussion and advice about certain mods is what I'm most interested in (since I will find out the first part eventually anyway). I. I updated from a very old PC (4 GB RAM, Intel Core Duo, 2 GB VRAM) to a newer one, and I'd like to know its limitation as that related to heavily modding Skyrim all-around, as well as whether there are mods that I missed that would come in handy for what I have in mind. My new specs are: Intel Core i5-7400 GTX 1050Ti, 4 GB VRAM Kingston 8GB RAM, DDR4 2400MHz 120 GB SSD My first question would be whether I should put the base game on the SSD (without mods), if I use Mod Organizer. I've wildly varying answers to this question from "your PC will explode" to "It doesn't make any difference", as well as "I did that all the time and it works much better". Secondly, what are the limitations of such a system in terms of modding? If I must choose (and I had to with my previous system), I would choose better gameplay over graphics any day, and if it would still come down to that, I would still choose that. That means scripts -- how well would that system handle them? Here I mostly refer of combat mods, most likely a combination of them, as well as a few others. Regarding textures, I intend to go with all 2k textures, I'm not exactly sure if 4k is pointless (I'll have a 1080p monitor). Would it make sense to use 4k skin textures? Right now, I don't intend to engage in "screenarchery", just general gameplay. II. The general direction to which I intend to bring Skyrim with mods is something along the lines of the lovechild of old school RPGs, Dark Souls and survival/horror games. II/a., Old School RPG Equipment Realizing that there cannot be any more depth added to the story or characters of Skyrim, what I am left with is trying to recreate the brute mechanics of old school RPGs. STR, DEX, INT, and so forth, but in a meaningful way. Personally, I really enjoyed the "unimmersiveness" of not even being able to hold a weapon unless you had the required amount of strength (as generally, I think the enjoyment of games comes not out of how well can they mirror reality (since you know, we have reality right here), but how fun they are). Sadly, I haven't found any mod that would implement such a system meaningfully. It doesn't need to be STR-DEX-INT-etc., it would be enough to not be able to equip certain items when certain requirements are not met. I know about TDF Equipment Restriction, but for some reason the author decided to make the player able to hold the weapon and only receive debuffs when the requirements are not met, instead of not being able to equip the weapon altogether. I have no problems to admit that it makes "more sense", but I'm not after "sense" here. Version 1.0 is still available, and it works how I want it to work, but I assume due to the updates, it had certain bugs which are only corrected in later versions, which also have this feature I dislike. Difficulty What I also consider to be a feature of old RPGs is an unleveled world, or something very similar. The point here is not about "levels", but difficulty, and when talking about difficulty, not "artificial difficulty" (enemies becoming damage sponges while you're oneshot by a low level bandit), but something that comes more "organically", perhaps through AI, perhaps through intelligent tweaking of certain stats. I know that there are certain mods that unlevel the world (even simple ones). The problem is their rigidity; it is extremely tedious and sometimes even impossible to make the world consistent (in terms of difficulty) when such a mod is installed, not to mention all the other edits that just somehow "slip in" unnoticed, and cause naked NPCs and all the rest. Consistency is key, and since I am not attached to a specifically unleveled world, but rather to a harsh world, I have no problems of letting these kinds of mods go for more consistency in the game. Is there something I missed here? Is there a mod that makes enemies stronger / more difficult (the good kind of difficult) to take on without it being rigid? I like ASIS because it distributes perks dynamically. I'm only interested in perk overhauls insofar as they are useful for NPCs, since I dislike the whole idea of perks, which brings me to my final point in relation to old RPGs. Progression Skyrim's, and generally modern games' progression scheme is meaningless. +10 here, +5% there, +1 for another thing. These are good for NPCs as buffs (thus I'm only looking for perk overhauls for my NPCs, I'll take whatever gives them the best bonuses through ASIS). In Old RPGs, at least this is my observation, advancement was based not on "progression" but on "investment". In other words, you weren't "going from one thing to the other", but you invested more and more into a certain skill. Say, your magical power grew not because you reached some new perk because you spammed enough fireballs, but because you invested enough in magic. Awakened Magicka perfectly recreates this kind of progression for magic. The most important feature it has (among other very useful ones), is that it scales spell magnitude by the amount of base magicka you have. In other words, you have to invest into magicka in order to become better at magic. Crazy, right? Spell Perk Restrictions applies a similar idea by restricting the available spells at certain stages. It makes absolutely no sense that you can cast a master level spell just because you have the required amount of magicka. These two create an environment where magic is actually for the mage type of characters (perhaps combining these with something that removes most mage enemies from leveled lists would be a good idea, in order to reinforce that magic is actually rare and requires study and investment -- i.e., not every other bandit is a mage. Skyband, although I haven't tried it yet, does something similar). I wonder if there are mods that were created in the same spirit for warriors and thieves. I don't know any of those, and I'd be glad if someone shared with me if they do. II/b., Dark Souls, survival/horror Combat This one seems to be the more common part in Skyrim modding. At least the Dark Souls part. I'm almost entirely sure that I know all of the big combat mods, and tested the greatest ones myself, too. There are also long and great posts about them over on reddit, detailing each. What combination of combat mods do you use to make combat the most varied and satisfying? I found that the better ones, such as Wildcat, sometimes achieve the exact opposite of what they set out to do. Often times I found that Wildcat made combat easier by its injury system, where you can down an otherwise extremely strong enemy simply because he gets an injury -- which is realistic, and makes sense, but as a reminder, I'm not looking for "sense", I'm looking for fun. If the injuries could only apply to the player, it would be perfect. Ultimate Combat 3.0, sadly, doesn't have an injury system, and has a supposedly stable locational damage system. Perhaps it is only me, but I still don't trust locational damage systems, and I have grown so used to Skyrim's combat that I don't even miss such rational things. I am unsure whether turning the damage multiplier down to 0 would turn it off. On the positive side, it adds great AI for group fights (when it works), as well as new moves (although, enemies stabbing with a mace is kinda weird), which are amongst the most important things for making combat feel something else (now, imagine if NPCs had attack animations that resemble sword fighting instead of ping-pong (onehanded) or baseball (greatswords)!). Vigor got the "potion system" (implemented as spells) right, as well as some parts of its injury system. What I like about the latter is that it has long(er) lasting injuries (well, up to 12 hours, that seems like a lot, especially when you lower vanilla timescale), which is a type of realism I personally don't mind in an action(-"RP") game, even though there are no perceivable signs of you being injured (generally implemented as debuffs, which are far from being as apparent as the tripping over effect in Wildcat, or the draining of certain stats, which I think is a negative). It also has a parrying system, I don't think I encountered that in other mods (i.e. swinging weapons at the same time cancels attacks). I also really like Deadly Combat Lite for its stagger system. The idea was that there should be some kind of reaction from NPCs and the player when a piece of steel cuts into their body, so it implements a very short stagger (with an option to avoid stagger-locking) when you land / get a successful hit from all kinds of sources (including magic). (Things like mortal enemies or any number of movement and angle of attack fixes in relation to combat, for me, belong the "fixes" category, instead of strictly combat itself). Sadly, none of these are "just perfect", and I'm not exactly comfortable combining huge combat mods together, especially when the most I've done in xEdit is some simple patching. Then there is insanity like this. What combination of combat mods do you use and recommend? Are there some niche mods that I missed? Environment By this, I mostly mean art style and atmosphere. Obviously, this is something -- like most things in this post -- that is up to personal preferences. For me, Skyrim is too bright, too bare and has extreme inconsistencies. Generally, I prefer dark atmospheres, in all sense of that word. Places that inspire certain (dark) emotions, places that tell such stories. Light should be used very sparingly (as well as bright colours), and it should be an inspiration for hope and safety -- as in, for example, a bright candle, with its orange light cast around it, lit in the endless darkness. Entering an ancient place should remind one of the feelings that are best described by Lovecraft, when the ignorant adventurer delves into greater-than-human, forgotten ruins, left behind by unknown creatures from an age that is only recorded in mythology (as were the dragons in Skyrim lore, a great missed opportunity). Where are the women driven to the edge of insanity due to the war, because they doubt every day that they will ever see their son/father/brother again? Most appearance overhaul make them even younger, even more plastic-looking (skin textures), and even cleaner than they were in the base game. From those that I encountered, there isn't even one that would go to the opposite direction. The range is from anime to supermodel. Where are the deserters, the coward men, the over-indulgence in all material pleasures "before it all ends", as a common feature of war on the population (and I assume, as a "common feature" of the end of the world itself, brought by Alduin)? Where are the desperate and hopeless people, selling everything, even their own bodies to feed their children? Where are the opportunistic parasites, seeking to make a profit from the misery of others? Where are the militant religious fanatics? Not even the Stormcloaks seem too upset about Talos. Where is the re-emerging Dragon cult, condemning the Stormcloaks themselves and positioning them as one side of a false dichotomy, when the real gods, according to them, are in fact the Dragons? (Let's not be hypocrites, if vampires, cutting and ripping off human heads and cannibals are fine and "family friendly", then the above are not different in intensity, only in nuance). So many missed opportunities. Although few of these are connected to the art style itself, and more to the story, I rather wanted to use those words to create a certain atmosphere and to give an idea about what I have in mind when I say "changing the art style/atmosphere of Skyrim". That is the direction I have in mind. Obviously, making everything that is above a reality in game would require more than a few darker and more gritty textures (and if I knew how to make it, I would probably go and do it), but right now, let's focus on what can be changed. Is anyone here playing in a similar world? What ENB do you recommend? I know of Bleak ENB, and I will try it out, but from the pictures I've seen, the goal is not get rid of most colours in the world. I find the atmosphere of Dark Souls and Bloodborne very appealing. It has just the right about of bright colours, which are also directly associated with "hope" and "safety" (see Bonfires). Perhaps Skyrim could bear a little more dark greens and blues, but I definitely want to get rid of the yellows and oranges (I'd need a (dark-)greenish Whiterun tundra, if not a forest... as well as a (dark-)green Rift). Almost continual foggy - overcast - rainy - stormy weathers would be nice too, as I found lighting mods alone cannot deliver this. Clear and sunny weathers should be kept to a bare minimum, as they achieve the same thing as too much light and bright colours (I really don't get the endless fascination with sunsets). For lighting mods, I intend to use Relighting Skyrim combined with ELE-LITE. ELFX has better fires, but I don't know if I can afford it performance-wise (note: I have no idea, I haven't even put my PC together yet). If you'd advise me against using the RS-ELE combo for my specific purposes, I'd reconsider it, or use something else. The important part is not the tools for me, but the product. Further, mods like Vaultman30's armors and Real Weapon Replacer fit into this vision perfectly, I have nothing to add to those, I just mention them for the sake of completion. Also, if anyone has knowledge of similar mods, don't hesitate to share. Economy I'll leave this one quite short. I'm looking for a few very specific things: 1. Scarcity of resources. 2. A general feeling of poverty, both for the player as well as for the merchants, good, fantasy or magical gear should be made or found, not bought. At all. 3. If it is at all possible, removing higher than steel weapons and armor from leveled lists. (4. And/or replacing them with models that fit the theme). These are all things that impact the game in a significant way, and not in the way of "well, you belong to another race which I must hate, so I will sell you this enhanced dwarven gear 5% more expensive, sorry". Overall, just simply a general sense of "I just don't have enough money for this" (although with all of your savings, you might), and the creation of an environment where rare gear can be truly appreciated. Regarding the survival part, I am unsure about Frostfall, as it seems rather a major source of micro-management (which I wholeheartedly hate in every game). Any argument to the contrary would be considered, I never understood why people think it's a good idea, although I am open to it. Survival, in the sense of "dangerous, scary nights" outside of the safety of the cities, would be much appreciated. To give the player a feeling similar to that in the movie "I am Legend"; i.e., the absolute need to return to safety before night, if s/he doesn't want to be the victim of all kinds of horrors (I already know of Survive the Night, and I'm looking for something else, not necessarily a quest).
Content Consumer Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 I can't offer much advice on any of this - I'm pretty much a vanilla game user, but in general there are a lot of mods out there that do things that may approach what you're looking for. Quote should put the base game on the SSD (without mods), if I use Mod Organizer. Your SSD is guaranteed to be faster than a magnetic drive, so *some* parts of the game might load faster. The speed increase might vary between "highly improved" and "not noticed at all," your mileage may vary. I don't use Mod Organizer, but from what I understand it's primarily useful for different mod profiles? If I understand how that works correctly, it will shorten the life of your SSD. All in all, I'd say it's probably not worth it, unless load times are the bane of your existence. In that case, I recommend trying it out both ways to see if it's really worth it. Quote what are the limitations of such a system in terms of modding? The same limitations as any other hard drive. Sheer number of scripts isn't the problem, it's what kind of scripts, how often they run, and how they are built. Here's an old dirty description of scripts and how they work. Quote I intend to go with all 2k textures, I'm not exactly sure if 4k is pointless (I'll have a 1080p monitor) Again, your mileage may vary. I try to go with lower resolution textures because my graphics card is quite old by now, but yours looks like it should be able to handle the higher resolution textures just fine. Discounting textures that are "upscaled" simply by doubling their size (I have seen one or two mods that purport to increase resolution by doing this - it's stupid, but it's extremely rare), 4k will almost always be noticeably better than 2k. Be discerning - textures on things you don't notice much (i.e. rocks, trees, the ground) aren't as important as things you look at a lot (i.e. NPCs, weapons, spells). Of course, it also depends on what you tend to look at a lot - if you play Skyrim because of the environment, you'll want higher resolution graphics on rocks trees etc. But in general with your system it looks like you'll be able to handle the higher resolution stuff just fine. Going with lower resolution won't necessarily harm the experience though. Try it with high-res stuff and then downgrade if you think you need to. NB: If you're using an SSD, try not to switch stuff around too much though, for the same reason that switching mod profiles a lot might harm the lifespan of your SSD. Quote Difficulty There are a whole crapton of combat overhaul mods out there, and I would recommend looking at them to see if anything hits your fancy, but TBH you're not going to find anything that really does a good job. You could try mods that add enemies to the world - to me, being swarmed by a number of smaller enemies is more difficult (in the sense of more challenging) than one single damage sponge. Quote Progression IIRC there was a mod that directly affected skills based on how much you used them, like the "sweet spot" for lockpicking would increase slightly every time you picked a lock, regardless of lock level. And so on. I can't remember the name though, and I think it had some serious bugs anyway. I think it got rid of perks entirely and based everything on skill use. I never used it though, so I can't say for sure. Great lot of help I've been so far. Quote Environment I don't use ENBs, but I've seen some screenshots of people with some ENBs that really make it look like an entirely different game. Look around for various ENB presets. Note that ENBs sometimes have problems interacting with other mods like lighting mods or anything that adds or alters imagespaces. There are a couple of good weather mods too - I can recommend True Storms Thunder and Lightning, and Pure Weather. Always Cloudy Weather makes for good darkish atmosphere, but it's kind of samey. I haven't tried these, but Climates of Tamriel, Vivid Weathers, and Wonders of Weather might help. For lightning, I recommend Realistic Lighting Overhaul. You'll also want to find some audio overhauls, I really like Sounds of Skyrim. You get used to it after a while, but when I first started using it, things like Nord ruins really felt quite different, much spookier. I also recommend either finding a music replacer or even just turning the music off entirely. For female appearance mods, Bijin has some problems (like you mention, most are much younger and smoother with *absolutely fantastic* hair) but it's still pretty good. The Ordinary Women was a pretty good one too IIRC. Mature Skin Texture and Body might also be something to look at. Quote Where are the <snip> I don't know of any, I don't think there's much call for that really. I don't use Interesting NPCs, but a lot of people love it, it might be a good place to start. I also recommend Skooma Whore. Quote Economy I've tried various economy mods, and so far my favorite is Trade and Barter. It's very simplistic, but if you set it to buy high and sell low, and combine it with needs mods and prostitution (i.e. you need sleep so you need money to rent a room so you need to sell yourself for money) it can really change the way you play the game. Of course, making massive amounts of money is still possible, but it takes a hell of a lot longer. I don't know of any mods that remove higher-tier gear from leveled lists, but there might be something out there. Quote Frostfall, as it seems rather a major source of micro-management It is, and so are needs mods, and it can get to be quite tedious and irritating. In that case, don't use frostfall, and pick a needs mod that only adds one thing, such as sleep, so you don't need to carry around extra food just to cram it down every X hours. I use a combination of Nord Needs (with food and water turned off, only sleep on), Sleep Anywhere and/or SD+ (SD+ includes sleep anywhere functionality), Sexlab Dangerous Nights, and Sexlab Parasites. No micromanaging - when you need to sleep, your movement speed is halved until you do sleep. It's not massively debilitating, but it's enough of a problem that you want to take care of it as soon as possible. And then you have a chance to get sexually assaulted on sleep, and/or get parasitized, depending on where you sleep (i.e. your bed in Breezehome is much safer than sleeping in the dirt in the middle of a vampire cave). TBH there are several mods for Fallout 4 that come closer to the kind of things you want than anything I'm familiar with for Skyrim. Dangerous creatures that come out only at night, dark and gloomy weather patterns, etcetera. I don't really know of any for Skyrim though.
faky Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 if you want to get into proper skyrim modding you must get a harddrive to supplement that SSD - while the SSD might hold skyrim just fine, the sheer volume of mods you're likely to install, try out, update over time and so on will not only clutter it but also shorten it's lifespan (aaaand harddrives are cheap) (also go ahead and put skyrim on the SSD or put it on both SSD and HDD and see how load times compare?)(put MO and mod download folder on HDD) unleveled world? challenge? difficulty? combat? some mods unlevel the world and do nothing else (like run dragonborn run hosted here), some mods are complete perk overhauls and some go even further (ordinator, perkus maximus, requiem) - you should try (or at least get somewhat familiar with) each one to see what suits you best there are also combat overhaul mods (deadly combat? wildcat? archery gameplay overhaul?) you can use alongside environment and the atmosphere - here i feel like modding the nights to be pitch black and turning off the lights in dungeons to make them even darker is a must (darker nights? eternal darkness?) but if you dig a little further you can find some mods that actually change skyrim into a really bleak and foggy place you can also look into mods like mikhail monsters or revenge of the enemies to face some new and unpleasant creatures in your travels through those dark dungeons....just dont forget your torch also....interesting NPCS, the people of skyrim, populated skyrim and so on to make it....less empty? unless that is your thing economy - less loot and higher prices are easily done (scarcity, cutthroat merchants or tradebarter) - these 3 mods let you control the prices and loot rarity survival - check out minineeds? you can make it bother you with any needs you like (and it has plenty to choose from) as a bonus ill throw in mods like SXP (rework of a levelling system - now you get XP for various activities and spend it however you like instead of just grinding that one skill that never levels up) IAMYOURSHIELD lets you or your follower become a proper tank with taunt and all, enabling all kinds of roleplaying (protect your weak mage friend? or let lydia take the hits while you pew from the distance?) attack commitment - dodging is viable now! no gps in skyrim - get lost! literally! spell learning - no more instant knowledge afte reading spell tomes. partly because there arent any anymore SLSolutions - be that desperate gal you mentioned who would do everything for favors (or go ahead with radiantprostitution....or both) Backpack containers - set your carryweight to something law and set up backpack carryweight buff to whatever suits you and voila - no more armory in your pants! now you have to dig in the pack like everyone else would iHUD - no more cheats like sneak indicator, enemy health bars, compass...or even crosshairs, magicka, stamina....health?! configurable too now the one thing to keep in mind is that it wont all magically work together out of the box and you will have to finetune some of these mods to your desired difficulty you might also want to check youtube for mod spotlights (brodual is one such channel)
ZeroListGram Posted August 16, 2018 Author Posted August 16, 2018 I'm sorry if I have the impression that I don't have a HDD. I do, I just took it for granted that people will assume that I do, especially when I mentioned that I want to put base Skyrim on it (thus, mods to *somewhere else*). My HDD is Seagate 1TB SATA3 64MB. @Content Consumer Quote Again, your mileage may vary. I try to go with lower resolution textures because my graphics card is quite old by now, but yours looks like it should be able to handle the higher resolution textures just fine. Coming from such an old system, I still have my old limitations ingrained in my mind... going above 1k seems like playing with fire. Quote Discounting textures that are "upscaled" simply by doubling their size (I have seen one or two mods that purport to increase resolution by doing this - it's stupid, but it's extremely rare), 4k will almost always be noticeably better than 2k. I think you've correctly identified the problem. Most often I couldn't tell any difference between 2k and 4k (except that I knew the latter one was 4k because it caused a stutter every time it loaded, even in inventory). I've also noticed that not all 2k mods are made equivalent -- some advertise themselves to be the same 2k as any other, but then look significantly better as well as consume more resources. Quote I don't use Mod Organizer, but from what I understand it's primarily useful for different mod profiles? If I understand how that works correctly, it will shorten the life of your SSD. (...) NB: If you're using an SSD, try not to switch stuff around too much though, for the same reason that switching mod profiles a lot might harm the lifespan of your SSD. Profiles are nice, yes, but what I found to be the most useful is that it doesn't put any mods into the Data folder, so it doesn't mess up the vanilla game, even if you make some mistake. It has its own folder, and you can move around all mods post-intallation, depending on which one you want to overwrite an other. There are other, smaller features too. Based on the last time I used NMM (back in 2015), I can't see any reason to keep using it when such tools are available. It compares to the experience when one first sorts one's load order after realizing that it matters... Speaking of which, I'm not a beginner in terms of modding (as an user). In fact, I managed to mod Skyrim to quite a significant level on that old machine. :P Quote IIRC there was a mod that directly affected skills based on how much you used them Yes, that's what I called "level progression" instead of "investment". I find it wholly stupid from modern game developers to implement systems where the only thing you need to do to become the world's most powerful magician, swordsman, and so forth, is to mess around long enough with that skill. You don't need teachers, you don't need books, there is no investment, no hierarchy in skills (you can use a fireball even if your character is a complete failure in magic, as long as you have the magicka)... I find this to be a mess, and honestly instead of calling this a "new, revolutionary system", I think this is rather the lack of a system. @faky Quote (like run dragonborn run hosted here) See? This is what I am talking about. I've been looking for enemy mods since ages, yet there are mods, even in such a small category as "unleveling the world", which I missed. Although, looking at it, quite honestly it just seems like a mess without any thematic consistency at all (based on this). From the description I get the impression of massive stat-boosts and damage sponges as well as completely unfitting abilities -- everyone seems to be made into dragonborns and handed high level gear. It also doesn't affect Dawnguard... well... it's a mess for consistency too, then. Quote some mods are complete perk overhauls and some go even further (ordinator, perkus maximus, requiem) - you should try (or at least get somewhat familiar with) each one to see what suits you best there are also combat overhaul mods (deadly combat? wildcat? archery gameplay overhaul?) you can use alongside The thing is that I've used all of those (including Requiem with all its add-ons). By far, Requiem is the best among all of them, but you can make it insanely inconsistent with just adding a few other mods. It also has some features I don't like, and others that I miss (such as bull rushing and breaking bows with melee hits). Quote check out minineeds? Check the "author" of MiniNeeds. :D Although admittedly, I only gave the idea for a very simple needs mod, specifically for that old, beaten down system. Quote SXP I know this, and this is the closest to what I want (in fact, it's formula is the same as how you gain experience in my favourite game of all time), but I'm afraid that it's a script monster. It always significantly contributed to script lags and all kinds of jitters on my old system. I don't know if that would be the case with the new one, or whether its scripts are written improperly. There is also a mod like Experience, which is a godsend, but I am unsure whether it is fully functional already. I would love to use it if it is, but I'm afraid that it is still in very early stages of development. Quote Backpack containers Thank you for this one! I've been looking for something like this since ages. I wonder if it works with something that makes it so that you continually get slower as you fill up your carryweight, and if you can drop these backpacks in an instant (say at the start of a fight) to be lighter / quicker. Will go through the description in a minute. __________________ Generally speaking, I think I have seen all of the major and most popular mods. There are many that I do use. However, most of them are just "not quite" what I'm looking for. Mostly this topic was intended to bring forth certain niche and "hidden gem"-like mods (such as Experience above, or indeed the lighting mod Shadows).
faky Posted August 16, 2018 Posted August 16, 2018 get jaxonz diagnostics and check if your script latency is acceptable with and without sxp...or if you see a difference at all. alternate levelling system is a must
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