Monsto Brukes Posted June 19, 2012 Posted June 19, 2012 http://thenerfherder.blogspot.com/2012/06/leaked-documents-show-uns-internet.html?m=1 I keep telling anyone that will listen: i don't know what it is, but the current way-of-life for the entire world is unsustainable and in the next couple of years, something big is going to happen, and it will all be over. I really thought "arab spring" was going to find it's way into the arabian peninsula and put allies on opposite sides of a regional conflict. this is step 1 if it winds up putting the clamps on the broadest venue of freedom of expression ever known. just sayin.
thesapien Posted June 19, 2012 Posted June 19, 2012 Maybe you know, but a lot of people tend to think similarly, a lot, throughout history and not just today. It also tends to be somewhat true for every generation, some more than others. Just in the last hundred years, we've had two major world wars. What I disagree with is that the ebb & flow of these cycles of conflict are actually culminating into the mother of all cycles or coming to an end once and for all. Currently, we're experiencing major shifts of power, globally. If you live in Europe, Japan, or the US, you're about to have a rude awaking and hang-over for at least a generation or two or three. However, if you live in a BRIC country, your generation has already begun experiencing a rise in living standards and it's about to get a whole lot better (though expect a hiccup for maybe this decade). Will Israel and Western powers go quietly into the night as their banking system implodes? That's the big question as we threaten Iran and, thus, threaten the world with WWIII (Russia and China will likely help defend Iran, forming the good guys). (As for the bad guys...) It's no secret that the US (backed by Israel, England, and others) has been preparing for WWIII ever since WWII. The US empire has more military bases scattered about the globe than there are countries to put them in (exaggerating, maybe, but for a point). And now everybody and their neighbor has nuclear weapons. So, we could possibly be in for the end of a really big cycle. That said, I'm not yet convinced WWIII is going to happen any time soon. The countries that are doing well, like the BRIC nations, are also doing quite well in avoiding conflict so far. This is why Israel wants so bad to just attack Iran even though Iran is just minding their own business. Just attack them anyway, for trying to be good and productive. That's what dying empires do when they know they are dying. Hmmm. So, yeah, I dunno. Is a world war on the menu tonight? I sometimes speculate that the last really HUGE cycle that may had been global ended before what we refer to as "ancient history". Notice I didn't say before "recorded history". The ancients themselves from differing parts of the world all had records of a big end to what was before, so it is recorded history. It was common knowledge back then that they were the ancestors of a greater civilization from before, right? So maybe they were right and we're now starting to see how that might had played out as it repeats. Still, it wasn't the end all or mother of all cycles given that people survived to tell the stories and to start another cycle. Edit: So no one else is jumping in yet? Did I kill it with a the wall of text? PS: On rereading your post, monsto, or read another way, I do maybe agree, but in the way that I'd also say that of course whatever we're doing is unsustainable because, well, everything natural is unsustainable. Nothing last forever. It's kind of why all lifeforms die and another generation (cycle) takes over. Consider this: even if a civilization arose that was a utopia and just dandy, the people would eventually start to slack, let down their guards against evil, even forget there was anything to guard against, and one day fall victim to the other side of nature. In a world without struggles, no one would be strong. It's a brutal truth. And the fact that so many have already forgotten this truth is, well, a bad sign. So about that article, expect that liberty is something we will always have to struggle for. The struggle is not new, nor will it ever go away.
GrimReaperCalls Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Well.... Shit. I might not be able to ridicule the people proclaiming the end of the world if this continues D:.
lakawana_shack Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 @op I wouldn't call it the end of the world or anything, but we are living in the golden days of the internet. It can only get worse from here, so live it up! (worse in terms of freedoms, not broadband etc) Maybe you know' date=' but a lot of people tend to think similarly, a lot, throughout history and not just today. It also tends to be somewhat true for every generation, some more than others. Just in the last hundred years, we've had two major world wars. What I disagree with is that the ebb & flow of these cycles of conflict are actually culminating into the mother of all cycles or coming to an end once and for all. Currently, we're experiencing major shifts of power, globally. If you live in Europe, Japan, or the US, you're about to have a rude awaking and hang-over for at least a generation or two or three. However, if you live in a BRIC country, your generation has already begun experiencing a rise in living standards and it's about to get a whole lot better (though expect a hiccup for maybe this decade). [/quote'] The BRIC's have their own challenges to deal with. Both China and Russia are screwed demographically. Russia currently has more people in their 20s, 30s and 60s than they do teenagers. They may be on the rise now, but in 10 years or so they might not even have enough people to man an army or support their society. China's booming economy is dependent upon cheap labor costs, however their 1 child policy and rural to urban migration has greatly lowered their birthrate(labor pool) and even if their economy does survive the next few years the odds are way against them to make it through the 2020's. India doesn't have the infrastructure or efficiency to maintain its economic growth, nor the political will to correct those problems. The man who coined the term BRIC called india a great disappointment and in less than 10 years they may not be the I in BRIC.(that'll be indonesia) Brazil is sitting pretty, no argument there and if they can navigate whatever challenges come their way they'll be a heavyweight on the world stage. The US is actually the only developed country with the population demographics(young people vs old people) that can continue to support its economic systems. Europe and Japan are screwed. It's all about the economy, and the economy is all about capital, and capital is all about population. Will Israel and Western powers go quietly into the night as their banking system implodes? That's the big question as we threaten Iran and' date=' thus, threaten the world with WWIII (Russia and China will likely help defend Iran, forming the good guys). [/quote'] Russia and China would probably join up to help Iran, which is why it is imperative for the US to make sure that a conflict with Iran does not happen. One of the few things we can thank Nixon for is separating Russia and China 40 years ago and they've been apart ever since, greatly benefiting the US. (As for the bad guys...) It's no secret that the US (backed by Israel' date=' England, and others) has been preparing for WWIII ever since WWII. The US empire has more military bases scattered about the globe than there are countries to put them in (exaggerating, maybe, but for a point) [/quote'] First, the US is not backed by Israel, Israel is backed by the US. Neither their economy nor military could not survive without our financial support. Second, you're right about overseas US bases. Once we set up shop we never leave, but that's about power projection, not empire. That said' date=' I'm not yet convinced WWIII is going to happen any time soon. The countries that are doing well, like the BRIC nations, are also doing quite well in avoiding conflict so far. [b']This is why Israel wants so bad to just attack Iran even though Iran is just minding their own business.[/b] Just attack them anyway, for trying to be good and productive. That's what dying empires do when they know they are dying. Hmmm. So, yeah, I dunno. Is a world war on the menu tonight? Minding their own business? You're talking about a country(iran) that denies the holocaust ever happened and has repeatedly stated their desire for the destruction of israel. Israel might attack Iran for legitimate security concerns, even though that would probably not be the best move. The israeli military does not support a military strike. Also, Iran itself does have legitimate security concerns to think about not relating to israel. They are a country surrounded by no natural allies, remember they're persians, not arabs. tldr: Same as the ending of Mass Effect 3, everyone's dead and screwed.
Monsto Brukes Posted June 20, 2012 Author Posted June 20, 2012 So about that article' date=' expect that liberty is something we will always have to struggle for. The struggle is not new, nor will it ever go away. [/quote'] sure, that's the essence of who was it Payne's quote? "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance". but the point i'm making is that relative to what "people think", it can't continue. It's not about slowly forgetting what got us where we are, it's about the apparent active dismantling for reasons unknown. I mean i'm as much an eyeroller as the next guy when THP (tinfoil hat people) decry illuminati and mason's and niphilim and all that. But when you see governments with vastly different appearances (agenda and governors) agreeing on clear Big Brother policies, it makes you wonder. and yes, btw, i'm an 'end of worlder' . . . because all that means is that it's the end of what you know. I mean the 'end of the world' doesn't have to be zombie apocalypes or alien invasion or asteroids or whatever. Imagine for a moment that Bitcoins wound up the 'strongest currency' in the world. And while Rome wasn't built in a day, it didn't fall in a day either. THP believe it'll be a 2 day event or whatever. Your description is a subtle evolution over time. I beleive it will be a newsworthy world changing extended timefram that we will have to deal with as people start to wake up. And from what i gather, i'm not the only one. The difference in our views is semantic. The core is the same.
thesapien Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 dreapunk, I would almost had been disappointed had no one challenged me on my usage of "BRIC" for a shorthand of countries on the rise. I'm aware of those popular accounts as to why many people, some of whom I even respect, would say I'm wrong. But here's my overall problem with the many objections, including some of yours: They are based on analyses which use our current economic theory. For example, you say China has done well because of "cheap labor". This is only true when value is determined by a faulty measure that is fiat currency. There is nothing really "cheap" about someone in China working hard as compared to someone in the US doing the same job. Calling their labor "cheap", well, cheapens them. Working harder for less paper money is a distortion. Instead of looking at paper value, I try to look at real work being done and what is actually produced; real things instead of fantasy economics. Such delusions and distortions between the US and China are moving toward reflecting reality and balance as overpaid Americans are seeing higher inflation, finally. Made in China... that is what it says on most of the objects in my home that I can touch with my hands and see that are real. This is true for simple objects like the coffee cup I just now picked up and checked by reading the bottom, as well as for the most high tech and complex objects like both of my computer monitors, HDZune, and Xbox controller. I hear Apple's best products are produced in China, too. And if you're keen on high tech engineering, robotics, and automated manufacturing plants that can produce things with LESS labor (not cheaper), you see that China is leading the pack and seems to be years ahead of the US, for example. If you want something special made with a unique design, China's advanced manufacturers will take your order with their amazing convertible plants. Side note: Even when it comes to recycling, China is way ahead of the pack. They make amazing use of our waste with their advanced tech. This is why they actually buy garbage from us to use as raw materials. While the US has been expanding militarily, China has been expanding mining and production of raw materials within their borders and around the world by investing in such or via trade negotiations. Here's another secret that is not really a secret anymore: Much of our military weaponry cannot be made without importing rare earth elements from China. China is now the biggest gold miner in the world. Expanding mining takes years, and China did much of it without public awareness. Then, after rewriting their laws so that any citizen can privately own gold, they went mainstream internally, using government funds to advertise to their people to start converting their savings of fiat currency into physical savings in the form of gold (and silver). I'm not saying all is well in China. I'm highlighting important parts that are overlooked. We too often focus on things like GDP (gross domestic product which is really a gross distortion not based on production but rather lots of financial instruments and not just goods but a lot of mere services) or exports (which ignores the switch to making stuff for themselves). China is in many ways too complex and a whole world all on its own for someone like me to really judge, given its diverse population with many spoken languages and 2 thousand year history of trying every form of government known to us. It is the Middle Kingdom, really, not "China" named by the West after chinaware. Before writing a book within a post, moving on to India (which, btw, has one of the youngest population demographics) I'll defer to this excellent video about India: [video=youtube] As to aging populations, at least you're not one of those going on about exponential growth and a world becoming overpopulated. My own views on this are complicated and biased, given that I have not married and had our two plus children so have not done my part. On the other hand, I don't talk to my parents and have no intention of supporting them when they fail to support themselves, nor am I counting on anyone to ever support me. So... yeah. Russia and China would probably join up to help Iran' date=' which is why it is imperative for the US to make sure that a conflict with Iran [u']does not happen[/u]. One of the few things we can thank Nixon for is separating Russia and China 40 years ago and they've been apart ever since, greatly benefiting the US. Glad we agree on not attacking Iran. As to Nixon, you've got it all wrong. He was taking advantage of a split that already existed between the Soviet Union (USSR) and Communist China (PRC) of mainland China, taking sides against the Soviets and against the Republic of China (ROC) of Taiwan. He did it in secret because we were actively fighting Communist China support in Vietnam. He was playing both sides in a war involving his own country. Fuck that sicko. Dude took us completely off what remained of the gold standard, too. First' date=' the US is not backed by Israel, Israel is backed by the US. Neither their economy nor military could not survive without our financial support. Second, you're right about overseas US bases. Once we set up shop we never leave, but that's about power projection, not empire. [/quote'] You're playing a funny word game here. One backs the other without the other backing the one? And power projection is different than empire building how? Minding their own business? You're talking about a country(iran) that denies the holocaust ever happened and has repeatedly stated their desire for the destruction of israel. Israel might attack Iran for legitimate security concerns' date=' even though that would probably not be the best move. The israeli military does not support a military strike. Also, Iran itself does have legitimate security concerns to think about not relating to israel. They are a country surrounded by no natural allies, remember they're persians, not arabs. [/quote'] Thanks for pointing out that they are Persians. Wish more Westerners knew that. Yes, they do have security concerns, especially now that we've surrounded them on both sides in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fortunately, they've already been publicly supported by Russia with Putin's warnings to the rest of the world. Iran is the non-aggressor; a fully modernized nation with strong trade ties to Russia, China, and India. As to your first part, you're mostly referring to President Ahmadinejad of whom is no fool and understands that Zionists leaders are out to get him. He's smart to want them gone. He's not out to get Jews though, just their extremist leaders who probably aren't really Jews anyway. You're also misunderstanding his position about the Holocaust (which is a Zionist word referring to their sacrificial baby burning, seriously). He is not a "denier". The Holocaust appears to had been Zionists sacrificing Jews in order to gain Israel and it worked. Ahmadinejad doesn't deny that many Jews were wrongly persecuted. He might challenge that the numbers were exaggerated and point out that we never uncovered any evidence that Hitler ordered the killings or knew of them. Hitler had blamed Zionist bankers for devastating Germany's economy and causing the Great Depression, was forced into War, and was another of those paranoid fucks who really did have his party infiltrated and taken over and really did get "suicided" in the end. The same could very well happen to Ahmadinejad. But calling him a "Holocaust denier" is like wrongly calling someone who sees 911 as an inside job a "911 denier". It's more about the who is responsible question. Hitler didn't trust many Jews and did put them in concentration camps, just like Americans did with Japanese-Americans. But who gave the orders to kill them? No matter your answer, no one should have their country attacked just for answering differently. I would say more, but I've probably written too much already. Challenge me why I see the US as mostly a phony economy bloated with non-productive jobs, and I'll get back to you.
thesapien Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 sure' date=' that's the essence of who was it Payne's quote? "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance". but the point i'm making is that relative to what "people think", it can't continue. It's not about slowly forgetting what got us where we are, it's about the apparent active dismantling for reasons unknown. I mean i'm as much an eyeroller as the next guy when THP (tinfoil hat people) decry illuminati and mason's and niphilim and all that. But when you see governments with vastly different appearances (agenda and governors) agreeing on clear Big Brother policies, it makes you wonder. and yes, btw, i'm an 'end of worlder' . . . because all that means is that it's the end of what you know. I mean the 'end of the world' doesn't have to be zombie apocalypes or alien invasion or asteroids or whatever. Imagine for a moment that Bitcoins wound up the 'strongest currency' in the world. And while Rome wasn't built in a day, it didn't fall in a day either. THP believe it'll be a 2 day event or whatever. Your description is a subtle evolution over time. I beleive it will be a newsworthy world changing extended timefram that we will have to deal with as people start to wake up. And from what i gather, i'm not the only one. The difference in our views is semantic. The core is the same. [/quote'] Are there really tin hat people? I mean, why not gold which is more dense and malleable? I hear NASA uses a thin lining of gold on suits and such to block radiation, lol. As to niphilim, it is interesting the biblical references and the analogous beliefs found in Scientology, New Age, and such where the only difference is in terminology. Personally, I can't see a difference between aliens and angels. Same stories with different labels. For me to believe in any of them, well, let me say this: If a strange humanoid dropped from the sky and told me itself that it was from another world, I'd ask them to prove it. I'd be thinking it looks like it evolved from humans or at least on this planet and so far I've only seen one on Earth. It would be hard to prove its case with me without actually taking me to its planet or other dimension. Why do people believe in lizard people from other planets when lizards evolved here? (Did you know there are actually extinct lizards which had a third eye on the top of their forheads?) Today, I was watching The Thing (the 2011 prequel) and wondering why they assumed right away that what they found was from outerspace. I mean, they found it on Earth, a place we already know life exist, so why assume it came from a place where we have no clue about the existence of life? Ah, but Illuminati, they were once something quite real, no? They were the ones who infiltrated the Masons. Personally, I think early Masons were good guys. They were mostly scientists and such who had to meet in secret, else face persecution from the Church. They then helped do great things like form what they called the New Atlantis, otherwise known as the USA. But the Masons of today aren't what they used to be. And I think the Illuminati were discovered and chased out quite some time ago. All that said, I think it would be naive and ignoring history to say there are no international organizations vying for power, today. Of course there are. And conspiracies aren't the fluke; they are the norm. Leaders are no different than everyday people in their drama. And none have a complete picture or are any smarter (or much smarter) than you or me. Many of them are even just crazy fanatics who themselves believe in aliens/gods. AND WHO NEEDS ILLUMINATI WHEN WE HAVE THE ROTHSCHILDS? Illuminati are mysterious and faceless. The Rothschilds are people we can document and actually target. I do like what you're saying though and have that REM song stuck in my head now... It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
lakawana_shack Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 For example' date=' you say China has done well because of "cheap labor". This is only true when value is determined by a faulty measure that is fiat currency. There is nothing really "cheap" about someone in China working hard as compared to someone in the US doing the same job. Calling their labor "cheap", well, cheapens them. Working harder for less paper money is a distortion. Instead of looking at paper value, I try to look at real work being done and what is actually produced; real things instead of fantasy economics. Such delusions and distortions between the US and China are moving toward reflecting reality and balance as overpaid Americans are seeing higher inflation, finally. Made in China... that is what it says on most of the objects in my home that I can touch with my hands and see that are real. This is true for simple objects like the coffee cup I just now picked up and checked by reading the bottom, as well as for the most high tech and complex objects like both of my computer monitors, HDZune, and Xbox controller. I hear Apple's best products are [b']produced[/b] in China, too. And if you're keen on high tech engineering, robotics, and automated manufacturing plants that can produce things with LESS labor (not cheaper), you see that China is leading the pack and seems to be years ahead of the US, for example. If you want something special made with a unique design, China's advanced manufacturers will take your order with their amazing convertible plants. Side note: Even when it comes to recycling, China is way ahead of the pack. They make amazing use of our waste with their advanced tech. This is why they actually buy garbage from us to use as raw materials. China produces(you used that word too) products, they do not develop products, not really anyways. That kind of innovation and development is still done in the US. That being said, when a country loses a manufacturing base, as the US has in the past couple decades, they also lose a lot of the innovation that comes with it which will be a problem in the future. We aren't that far away from a competitive Chinese developed car(see Top Gear) however, even that is based on stolen designs from western auto manufacturers. On your statement about economic theory. Cheap labor is not the same as Unskilled Labor. Unskilled labor is what would be used to manufacture T shirts, in both the US and China, however their Unskilled labor is less costly (i.e. cheaper) than ours. That is their advantage and is the driving force of their economic boom. If you remove the factor of what the worker is paid, then all of the manufacturing that used to be in the US but is now in China would still be here. If Africa got its act together and Microsoft could pay them less than the Chinese, that's where your zune would be made.(Note: Africa getting it's act together isn't that likely anytime soon) You kind of have to work with current economic theory on that issue, because that part of the theory isn't going to change. You can argue Keynesian vs. Austrian(austrian believer here btw), those ideas are relatively recent and both sides can support their ideas and disprove the other's. But the cost of labor? You pay them in a fiat currency or in gold, it's still going to cost something. And you'd have to pay the Chinese worker less gold than an american worker for doing the same job. Also, your point about china using less labor? That's bad news for them. It wasn't good news for the US workers when we started automated plants either. Such delusions and distortions between the US and China are moving toward reflecting reality and balance as overpaid Americans are seeing higher inflation' date=' finally. [/quote'] The inflation isn't due to americans being overpaid. If anything, wages have decreased in the past decade. Inflation is due to the money supply, which has greatly increased since Obama starting printing tons and tons of money. While the US has been expanding militarily' date=' China has been expanding mining and production of raw materials within their borders and around the world by investing in such or via trade negotiations. Here's another secret that is not really a secret anymore: Much of our military weaponry cannot be made without importing rare earth elements from China. [/quote'] The US has not been expanding militarily, not since the end of the cold war. The overall size of the US military has shrunk by roughly 25% since the early 90's and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are not about conquest. Theyre about punishment or prevention or taking out Saddam, all stupid reasons, but not military expansion. That being said, our military budget is bigger than the next 16 countries combined, just so the world knows who has the biggest cock on the block lol. You are dead right about China expanding mining within their own borders and making key agreements around the world. They are thinking smarter than we are in this area. They approach the world with an economic strategy and we still think we can swing our big dicks and make people do as we say. Before writing a book within a post' date=' moving on to India (which, btw, has one of the youngest population demographics) I'll defer to this excellent video about India: [/quote'] The video didn't work for me so I dunno what it said. India does have a young and increasingly better educated population, however if they don't get their act together they'll suffer from a brain drain from the developed world and the currently developing nations that do have their act together. Hopefully most of the them will come here, but the US has stupid immigration policies that don't take advantage of the desire of the world's best and brightest to come and work here. Glad we agree on not attacking Iran. As to Nixon' date=' you've got it all wrong. He was taking advantage of a split that already existed between the Soviet Union (USSR) and Communist China (PRC) of mainland China, taking sides against the Soviets and against the Republic of China (ROC) of Taiwan. He did it in secret because we were actively fighting Communist China support in Vietnam. He was playing both sides in a war involving his own country. [/quote'] Either way, he took advantage of a rift and we've been able to maintain it till now. First' date=' the US is not backed by Israel, Israel is backed by the US. Neither their economy nor military could not survive without our financial support. Second, you're right about overseas US bases. Once we set up shop we never leave, but that's about power projection, not empire. [/quote'] You're playing a funny word game here. One backs the other without the other backing the one? And power projection is different than empire building how? Well, another hypothetical. The US does something, let's say...we invade the seychelles. Does Israel support the US action? Do they condemn it? Correct answer: who gives a shit. Now, Israel invades the seychelles. Does the US support the Israeli action? Do they condemn it? The world tempers their response based on which path the US chooses. Sure, there would be a lot of bitching and moaning, especially from the arab states and maybe german tourists(not because they hate jews, they just love the seychelles), but if the US supports Israel, they wouldn't do more than bitch and moan. On empire. You could define American power projection and influence as empire, but not really. We don't have direct control over any of the places where our troops are stationed. We have influence, sure, but control? no. And that's not what it's about either. In the Middle East it's about regional stability so oil doesn't get too expensive. In Europe it's about making sure the Russians can't use their military as a tool for influence. Although these days, one could make a strong argument about this no longer being necessary. In Asia it's about making sure the chinese can't use their military as a tool for influence. The presence of a US fleet is a terrific stabilizing factor. We learned that from the Royal Navy back in the days of the old empire. Bottom line? It's about oil. it's always about oil. I'm not gonna touch this next part as it would completely derail this discussions. I'll just say I disagree with you and leave it at that. Minding their own business? You're talking about a country(iran) that denies the holocaust ever happened and has repeatedly stated their desire for the destruction of israel. Israel might attack Iran for legitimate security concerns' date=' even though that would probably not be the best move. The israeli military does not support a military strike. Also, Iran itself does have legitimate security concerns to think about not relating to israel. They are a country surrounded by no natural allies, remember they're persians, not arabs. [/quote'] Thanks for pointing out that they are Persians. Wish more Westerners knew that. Yes, they do have security concerns, especially now that we've surrounded them on both sides in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fortunately, they've already been publicly supported by Russia with Putin's warnings to the rest of the world. Iran is the non-aggressor; a fully modernized nation with strong trade ties to Russia, China, and India. As to your first part, you're mostly referring to President Ahmadinejad of whom is no fool and understands that Zionists leaders are out to get him. He's smart to want them gone. He's not out to get Jews though, just their extremist leaders who probably aren't really Jews anyway. You're also misunderstanding his position about the Holocaust (which is a Zionist word referring to their sacrificial baby burning, seriously). He is not a "denier". The Holocaust appears to had been Zionists sacrificing Jews in order to gain Israel and it worked. Ahmadinejad doesn't deny that many Jews were wrongly persecuted. He might challenge that the numbers were exaggerated and point out that we never uncovered any evidence that Hitler ordered the killings or knew of them. Hitler had blamed Zionist bankers for devastating Germany's economy and causing the Great Depression, was forced into War, and was another of those paranoid fucks who really did have his party infiltrated and taken over and really did get "suicided" in the end. The same could very well happen to Ahmadinejad. But calling him a "Holocaust denier" is like wrongly calling someone who sees 911 as an inside job a "911 denier". It's more about the who is responsible question. Hitler didn't trust many Jews and did put them in concentration camps, just like Americans did with Japanese-Americans. But who gave the orders to kill them? No matter your answer, no one should have their country attacked just for answering differently. I would say more, but I've probably written too much already. Challenge me why I see the US as mostly a phony economy bloated with non-productive jobs, and I'll get back to you. Not gonna challenge you that the US is more and more a service economy. However, we are still the world leader in innovation and still attract the best and brightest from around the world. Even if we don't always let them in.
Guest Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Meh. At least it isn't the entertainment industry. I have a tiny bit of more hope and confidence in the UN.
Kashiwaba Tomoe Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 I have a tiny bit of more hope and confidence in the UN. Isn't the UN unable to even get a vote together to condemn UN 'peacekeepers' in fucked up countries for using local children as sex toys. Yeah, google 'League of Nations' That is what the UN is 2.0 of.
thesapien Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 China produces(you used that word too) products' date=' they do not develop products, not really anyways. That kind of innovation and development is still done in the US. [/quote'] That you actually believe this says a lot. It's one of those myths in the US that just won't die. Only Americans are creative? Chinese can't do research and development? Those people only know how to copy? You're ignoring all the famous inventions from China as well as all of their recent innovation. You do realize how racist that sounds? I'll just presume you're grossly ignorant about China (like most Westerners) and not so much a racist, though not sure that's much better or different. If it helps, there does seem to be similar attitudes from Chinese about Americans. I just watched a Chinese film today that stereotyped Americans as Neanderthal like barbarians with no honor or wisdom. Made me laugh. So I can offer a smile to you, as well. On your statement about economic theory. Cheap labor is not the same as Unskilled Labor. Unskilled labor is what would be used to manufacture T shirts' date=' in both the US and China, however their Unskilled labor is less costly (i.e. cheaper) than ours. That is their advantage and is the driving force of their economic boom. If you remove the factor of what the worker is paid, then all of the manufacturing that used to be in the US but is now in China would still be here. If Africa got its act together and Microsoft could pay them less than the Chinese, that's where your zune would be made.(Note: Africa getting it's act together isn't that likely anytime soon) [/quote'] I never equated "cheap" with "unskilled". Though it kind of sounds like you might be. Making clothing is a skill! Seriously. If done mostly by hand, then skilled hands. If done mostly by machines, then skilled machinists. Sure, some economist (who themselves are unskilled in just about every way) have never tried making their own clothes or designing machines that can help and, thus, might see the production of clothing as involving unskilled labor. But they would be idiots. I was not intending for you to start ignoring the cost of labor. Industry should and does move toward those who can provide lower costs. But this is far more complicated than you're making it out to be. See your own example of African nations. Because it's not just about finding workers who will work for less. Politics, education, health... lots of other factors. For instance, one of the biggest reasons business is moving overseas is that the US makes doing business harder and harder here. In the US, you can't even sale lemonade on the street without license fee after license fee, food regulators, health departments, insurance, and taxes, taxes, taxes. Wasn't it just last year that a local farmers' co-op got raided by cops with guns drawn in California, caught on video and uploaded to YouTube? We're not even allowed to grow and trade our own food without paying off the right thugs and then being permitted by those thugs to do our business. You kind of have to work with current economic theory on that issue' date=' because that part of the theory isn't going to change. You can argue Keynesian vs. Austrian(austrian believer here btw), those ideas are relatively recent and both sides can support their ideas and disprove the other's. But the cost of labor? You pay them in a fiat currency or in gold, it's still going to cost something. And you'd have to pay the Chinese worker less gold than an american worker for doing the same job. [/quote'] No, I do not have to stay within common theory. However, I must be well versed in a theory if I'm going to challenge it. That I am. I also tend toward the Austrian school and enjoy commentators like Tom Woods from Mises University and Peter Schiff, a business man and investor, and James Turk, whom I bank with, just to name a few of my influences. Also' date=' your point about china using less labor? That's bad news for them. It wasn't good news for the US workers when we started automated plants either. [/quote'] Producing more with less labor is not good??? Now, you're taking a side against any and all schools of economics that I know of. Such efficiencies free up labor for other tasks. Economists do point out the growing pains for those not able or willing to learn new skills, however mostly agree that it is an overall good. So I'm not even sure where you are coming from unless maybe you work for a labor union. The inflation isn't due to americans being overpaid. If anything' date=' wages have decreased in the past decade. Inflation is due to the money supply, which has greatly increased since Obama starting printing tons and tons of money. [/quote'] I never meant for you to turn the cause and effect relation around. During the inflation of the dollar over the last hundred years, wages have been trying to keep up (though keep lagging), not the other way around. Roughly, what I was pointing at, is an imbalance of wages between the two countries that is related to our credit induced, inflated economy. This is looking to balance out and higher inflation of the dollar will be one manifestation of it. China has actually been helping to slow the process, making it more manageable, as they keep pegging their currency to ours. The US has not been expanding militarily' date=' not since the end of the cold war. The overall size of the US military has shrunk by roughly 25% since the early 90's and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are not about conquest. Theyre about punishment or prevention or taking out Saddam, all stupid reasons, but not military expansion. That being said, our military budget is bigger than the [b']next 16 countries combined[/b], just so the world knows who has the biggest cock on the block lol. What are you looking at? What's your measure? I'm looking at the defense budget that has doubled in the last decade and the increase in troops overseas that shot up since 2002. I'm also willing throw in the fact that any industry, the industrial-military complex being one, can turn into a money machine with a life of its own without any overall direction or goal or leader with plans. This would help, actually, counter what I said about empire, lol. I like countering myself. You are dead right about China expanding mining within their own borders and making key agreements around the world. They are thinking smarter than we are in this area. They approach the world with an economic strategy and we still think we can swing our big dicks and make people do as we say. They could be drawing on their own long history with paper currencies and banking which goes way back in China. Mining also goes way' date=' way back in China. It seems to be more than mere accident that they are a creditor nation as opposed to our debt-ridden one. Ever notice, too, how when our media talks about the world's largest banks they omit the very largest ones which are actually Chinese? The video didn't work for me so I dunno what it said. India does have a young and increasingly better educated population, however if they don't get their act together they'll suffer from a brain drain from the developed world and the currently developing nations that do have their act together. It was a TED video from TED Talks featuring Yasheng Huang. It's on YouTube and TED's own website if you're interested. Thought it was perfect being by a Chinese talking about India to the English speaking world. Hopefully most of the them will come here' date=' but the US has stupid immigration policies that don't take advantage of the desire of the world's best and brightest to come and work here. [/quote'] I so agree. Glad we agree on not attacking Iran. As to Nixon' date=' you've got it all wrong. He was taking advantage of a split that already existed between the Soviet Union (USSR) and Communist China (PRC) of mainland China, taking sides against the Soviets and against the Republic of China (ROC) of Taiwan. He did it in secret because we were actively fighting Communist China support in Vietnam. He was playing both sides in a war involving his own country. [/quote'] Either way, he took advantage of a rift and we've been able to maintain it till now. Why can't we all just be friends? I see your point about the US backing Israel and it not always being the other way around. The US has too many national and international factions that don't all align with Israel. Israel seems more singular in leadership and their goals. This admission also helps dismantle my over-simplification of the US as empire building. However, I think it also contrasts with an over-simplification you're also making in saying: Bottom line? It's about oil. it's always about oil. We over-simplify to make a point. So I'm not really disagreeing with your point. However' date=' we don't really mean what we say to the fullest extent of which others might interpret our words, do we? It has a lot to do with oil. But it is not ALL about oil. Not gonna challenge you that the US is more and more a service economy. However, we are still the world leader in innovation and still attract the best and brightest from around the world. Even if we don't always let them in. We may had been for a very short while but not anymore. Just look at high tech, for instance, where those industries sit, where most of those jobs are now.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.