[WIP] A new body replacement idea.

[barjack]

I had a look at the meshes in game and they did not show the diffuse properly, the right side was stretched.

So i opened it up in max and looked at its UVs and they was not mirrored, so i edited the mesh to properly mirror them.

I made 2 versions, one that overlaps the other is off set.

 

Both handled the seam where they meet very well which was a surprise especially for the overlap test (Fallout NV shows errors if you do this)

 

But light is not calculated properly, so you have highlights and shadows where there not meant to be or none where they are supposed to be.

 

 

So to sum up no it doesn't look like skyrim can do mirrored object space normals.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/41at4twesa4s1dp/Mirror%20Tests.7z

 

Yeah,,I've the same result of lighting,I suggest we compare the character model 's shader flag setting with those static objects,,maybe we set them all the same with wall/static objects then it will be fixed.It's worthy a shot before giving up the idea of mirrored UV.

For your convience,,,i uploaded a random vanilla static mesh for comparison.

And,,basic figure is done,now waiting for UV layout.I will use CBBE's hands to save some modelling time for this project.Current poly count : about 6000  ,just a bit lower than CBBE:P

farmbench01.nif

[Vioxsis]

The player/npc body is the only mesh making use of an object space normal (that i have come across), everything else uses tangent space.

so i made a quick tangent from the diffuse and unset the 'model space normals' flag in the nif. 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/bjd3hajx1ad3gov/Tangent%20test.7z

 

Light and shadows work properly, but the body looks plastic, this might be due to the quick normal map i did but tangent space normals store how they reflect light in the alpha and object space don't....

 

I would say that with some tweaking and a lot of compromise you could use a tangent normal map, but i don't think it would be worth it, at all.

 

Skyrim's shader supports object space for the body and it would be stupid not to take advantage of that, and if you mirror the UVs you limit what tattoos, scars and other things that can be added like that to practically none.   

 

Also show some pics with edged faces on, i want to see some topology.

[barjack]

The player/npc body is the only mesh making use of an object space normal (that i have come across), every thing else uses tangent space.

so i made a quick tangent from the diffuse and unset the 'model space normals' flag in the nif. 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/bjd3hajx1ad3gov/Tangent%20test.7z

 

Light and shadows work properly, but the body looks plastic, this might be due to the quick normal map i did but tangent space normals store how they reflect light in the alpha and object space don't....

 

I would say that with some tweaking and a lot of compromise you could use a tangent normal map, but i don't think it would be worth it, at all.

 

Skyrim's shader supports object space for the body and it would be stupid not to take advantage of that, and if you mirror the UVs you limit what tattoos, scars and other things that can be added like that to practically none.   

 

Also show some pics with edged faces on, i want to see some topology.

 

Yea,I know object space normal gives you better quality of lighting

Here is the comparison

http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap

But,,the plastic looking you said,i'm sure it's lacking of specular map,you can try to apply specular map to fix it.

However most of the games,i would say 90% of them still using tangent space normals today.And i don't see much difference between them.

For saving ram usage/computing power is the meaning of this project.

As for tattoo,,there is a very simple solution,just paste a simple shape of mesh above the skin that you want paint tattoo,then you can paint on it(with alpha mask transparacy).

Anyway,,i will use tangent if i can find solution,,if not,i will use object space one.

Here is the preview,,I will try to cut more polygons and make the spacing of wiring evenly.

[Vioxsis]

It is using the spec map that comes with cbbe and it is completely black.

 

Body's in skyrim use 3 sets of maps head, hands and body/feet are you trying to merge them into 1 set of maps?
 

[barjack]

It is using the spec map that comes with cbbe and it is completely black.

 

Body's in skyrim use 3 sets of maps head, hands and body/feet are you trying to merge them into 1 set of maps?

 

 

For hands,absolutely yes,therer are lots of spacing remaining if you look the cbbe's body UV assignment.

For heads,,it depends if i can find a way to use mirrored tangent space normal,

It's a bit hard to maintain the detail with full body/head/limbs in the same map without using mirrored UV

 

Edit,,hold!  Did you transform your normal map from object space to tangent space first?

If not,,use a program called xnormal to do it first,,you can find it in google,it's free software,very useful one.

[Vioxsis]

If you combine maps you will probably need to do some editing in the CK to get it to work.

 

And no i made the tangent from the diffuse in PS.

My xnormal is a little busy at the moment doing some test bakes for some stuff i'm messing around with.   

[barjack]

I got pretty weird result with offset&mirrored mesh you uploaded.

Here is the screenshots

http://www.sendspace.com/file/v1jqjz

my normal map is converted from xnormal.

trying some adjustment in shader flag atm.

 

Edit:

Forget about tangent space,,object space normal with mirror+ offset 100% working .

Look the seam line in the center of the body,almost invisible.

[Vioxsis]

This is what it looks like in my game using the tangent test.7z i linked earlier.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/9o59phyzma12bkn/pics.7z

The only odd thing was the top of the back, not sure if its because the verts aren't welded, vertex normals or the normal map its self thats the cause.

 

Mediafire is being stupid and not showing the pictures i uploaded so i zipped them.

 

*edit*

it just occurred to me that i never changed the BS Num UV Sets to 4097 when i linked it to the tangent normal.

you should change it, as it will give better results, and remove that weird back seam.

[macdefault]

i like the idea but there are prob. already mods for that

[barjack]

A bit more progress,and the comparison with vanilla body.

It will take a bit longer to finish this project,here are things need to be done.

 

1.model and re-topology a head.

2. do some sculpture to add detail in zbrush first,in order to eliminate the lighting seam,this need to be done combine with head,hands,feet.

3.make texture.

4.add morph of facial expression to tri

5.armor/hair/accessories importing to fit the new created race..

,,,

damn,,long list already:P

 

[dTd]

Coming along but I must say why? It's very close to a cbbe look alike and there's something funny with the top of the inner thighs eh?

[barjack]

Coming along but I must say why? It's very close to a cbbe look alike and there's something funny with the top of the inner thighs eh?

 

This is the shape i like,

and I only used about 1/2 polygons in the foot area compare with cbbe.

The less polygon/texture size,the more characters and smoother of game playing.

That means the more ENB effects you can use without losing frame rate.

In the mean while,i hope this project keep some level of quality despite of low-poly/smaller size textures.

 

[Arngrim11]

Coming along but I must say why? It's very close to a cbbe look alike and there's something funny with the top of the inner thighs eh?

I don't get why you say this is a cbbe look alike this is as different from cbbe as unp. To be honest the shape reminds me a lot of GND4. If you're referring to the test file that would be because that was cbbe set to use a mirrored uv if I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong barjack.

[dTd]

 

Coming along but I must say why? It's very close to a cbbe look alike and there's something funny with the top of the inner thighs eh?

I don't get why you say this is a cbbe look alike this is as different from cbbe as unp. To be honest the shape reminds me a lot of GND4. If you're referring to the test file that would be because that was cbbe set to use a mirrored uv if I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong barjack.

 

 

You're probably right, I notice the other renders are different.

[barjack]

 

 

Coming along but I must say why? It's very close to a cbbe look alike and there's something funny with the top of the inner thighs eh?

I don't get why you say this is a cbbe look alike this is as different from cbbe as unp. To be honest the shape reminds me a lot of GND4. If you're referring to the test file that would be because that was cbbe set to use a mirrored uv if I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong barjack.

 

 

You're probably right, I notice the other renders are different.

 

The main reason i don't want to use vanilla's head.

1. It's topology is very difficult for creating new facial expressions.

2. It's vertex count too less to form a smooth shell ,especially in chin area.

3. The place it separates with body,I hate this part most,why didn't they make seam in the center of the neck?

    it separates with part of the shoulder/body area.It means we have to adopt vanilla body scale as long as we  use this head set.You guys know the vanilla body figure scale looks like ape:P(sorry,,just personal opinion)

 

dTd,yea,,I just used cbbe to test mirrored UV,the nif i uploaed.I havn't released this figure replacement yet.It's still far away from finishing line.

 

[wolfbread]

Can you shrink the hands, they look terrifyingly large.

[barjack]

Can you shrink the hands, they look terrifyingly large.

 

yes,they're,and it's intentionally been made bigger.why?

,,because i can't adjust vanilla bones' joints location,so i have to model the hands to fit original skeleton's joint location.if you change the joint location,the animations/harvok related data will be messed up.(it's about matrix calculation,child bone is affected by it's linked father bone)

So,the solution is like this,,model the hands as the same size/joint location, after rigging,we can use scaled bones to make hands smaller.

Here is the reminder for me

if i scaled hands bone as the scale of 0.8

then weapon bone should be scaled as 1/0.8=1.25,because weapon bone is the child of hand bone.

Same as the legs and other parts.

This is not the best solution,,but for saving time,i choose this method.

If you have better idea,plz share,ty~

[dobmc]

Can you shrink the hands, they look terrifyingly large.

Or you could use ECE(and RaceMenu possibly) to adjust the hands to your liking. 

[wolfbread]

Sorry, wasn't trying to be a dick, and didn't know you could scale them so easily. 

[dobmc]

You're not a dick, its called feedback. Unless on the nexus(oh boy here I go), its called 'personal offence' instead of 'criticism'. 

[barjack]

After 1 week of fighting in face topology,,the basic shape of new face is decided.

I tried to make a younger and female like shape as hard as i can.

current poly count in head area: 518 triangles.

 

I will use vanilla mouth for saving time. But i will try to combine the textures of eyes and mouth,even face into single one when assigning UV.

[barjack]

Next step will be zbrush sculpturing.

Here is another question,,if separating legs and hands texture into another map gives game engine better performance?

when we playing game,,we sometimes equip armor without gloves or shoes,,then the hands/feet map will be loaded,,but if i used combined textures,,the game will load full texture with body,face,hands,feet, no matter they're not showed on screen.

So,,I'm thinking maybe combining feets/hands with body isn't really good in this game.

How do you ppl think about this point?

gonna use poly paint to bake textures,,so it should be seamless .

and my current UV arrangement.

 

[Vioxsis]

The game will load the body textures no matter what, if the PC is in a full gimp suit with no skin showing at all doesn't matter because the NPCs will be using the loaded texture. I would be surprised if it ever gets unloaded.

 

And you should give more pixel density to the hands as you will see those in first person, the face will probably benefit from more as well.

And the breasts will also need more density, the leg doesn't need as much as it has so you can reduce that.

 

Those are are the only things that jump out at me.

  

[barjack]

oh,i forgot npcs,you're correct,no matter what it gonna be loaded,

I also reduced the pixel area of rear head ,because it gonna be covered by hair and invisible.

so,the distortion in this area won't be a problem

Here is the updated version according to your suggestion.

if no other big problems,,i'm going to use this UV setting.

[Vioxsis]

Looking good, Its also packed much better. 

Though its hard to tell looking at a 2d UV but you might want to do a test paint on the breasts.

The under boob and nipple don't look as if they have much density.