Stretching while using Gender-Specific Skeletons Mod

[adnblock]

I'm trying to get both the CBBE Skeletal Adjustments Knee Fix and ZaZ Extended Skeleton to work simultaneously with a Gender-Specific Skeletons mod (nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/40866?tab=description&BH=1) so both the Male and Female models look the best they can. The mod is supposed to provide a pathway for Male models to use ZaZ, but as you can see by the screenshot that it isn't working. Does anyone have any experience with the mod or suggestions on how to get this fixed (short of changing over to ZaZ if possible, I have a few mods that depend on the other skeleton I'd rather not have to get rid of)?

[VonHelton]

27 minutes ago, adnblock said:

I'm trying to get both the CBBE Skeletal Adjustments Knee Fix and ZaZ Extended Skeleton to work simultaneously with a Gender-Specific Skeletons mod (nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/40866?tab=description&BH=1) so both the Male and Female models look the best they can. The mod is supposed to provide a pathway for Male models to use ZaZ, but as you can see by the screenshot that it isn't working. Does anyone have any experience with the mod or suggestions on how to get this fixed (short of changing over to ZaZ if possible, I have a few mods that depend on the other skeleton I'd rather not have to get rid of)?

 

 

You need to run the male through bodyslide, looks like........

 

[adnblock]

4 hours ago, VonHelton said:

 

You need to run the male through bodyslide, looks like........

 

 

Unless I'm doing it wrong, which is possible, batch building the male bodies doesn't fix it. 

 

[Biollante]

Check again if you've installed the right esp and if you copied the right zaz files in the right folder (you need to copy and paste the skeleton files in /meshes/actors/character/NPCassets).

 

If everything is where it needs to be: is that male char from a custom race or something?

 

Also you'll have to edit the synth race record to use the new path too, because synths are not included in the Gender Specific esp.

[adnblock]

11 hours ago, Biollante said:

Check again if you've installed the right esp and if you copied the right zaz files in the right folder (you need to copy and paste the skeleton files in /meshes/actors/character/NPCassets).

 

If everything is where it needs to be: is that male char from a custom race or something?

 

Also you'll have to edit the synth race record to use the new path too, because synths are not included in the Gender Specific esp.

Skeleton files seem to be in the right spot, far as I can tell he shouldn't be a custom race. Is there any way to tell with the console? The only mod I'd figure would change custom races is Unique NPCs, I've been poking around in Fo4Edit to see if I could find the issue but no luck so far. 

[johnny_columbo]

So the Male is OP's character?  He look like he's not having a good time ?

 

Gender-specific skeletons are also the way I'd like to go.  It makes good sense, so one can have girls with feminine builds which arent disturbingly reminiscent of the boys with their masculine builds, and vice-versa.  Nature also uses distinctly gendered (or sexed, technically) skeletons, to facilitate child-birth for instance. 

 

Other Gamebryo games, if not all of them, already have sex-specific skeletons in their vanilla design.  It's curious Bethesda didn't do that here.  Perhaps another streamlining concession, I expect.   In any case, backpatching skeleton stuff has always been difficult in these games, because the skeleton is basal to every animate instance in its world.

 

Im gonna try the "gender-specific" thing real soon (comments section) and so are many other people.  Any information about its problems, and especially how it plays with AAF, since that is extra hard to test, would be appreciated. 

[South8028]

17 minutes ago, johnny_columbo said:

So the Male is OP's character?  He look like he's not having a good time ?

 

Gender-specific skeletons are also the way I'd like to go.  It makes good sense, so one can have girls with feminine builds which arent disturbingly reminiscent of the boys with their masculine builds, and vice-versa.  Nature also uses distinctly gendered (or sexed, technically) skeletons, to facilitate child-birth for instance. 

 

Other Gamebryo games, if not all of them, already have sex-specific skeletons in their vanilla design.  It's curious Bethesda didn't do that here.  Perhaps another streamlining concession, I expect.   In any case, backpatching skeleton stuff has always been difficult in these games, because the skeleton is basal to every animate instance in its world.

 

Im gonna try the "gender-specific" thing real soon (comments section) and so are many other people.  Any information about its problems, and especially how it plays with AAF, since that is extra hard to test, would be appreciated. 

Well, the bottom line is that there is no gender skeleton at all. Nobody has done it yet. All the skeletons there are - this is a regular vanilla skeleton with various small fixes, or added bones cbp, 3bbb and all that. Also, the skeleton itself is unlikely to make any fundamental changes. Heavy changes that break the hierarchy will kill the animation. Cosmetic won't change anything. If there is an anatomically correct mesh with a higher hip line, more feminine, then it can simply be correctly tied to these vanilla bones. Such a mesh is easy to assemble on the basis of cbbe. Just sculpt in outfit studio, add vertices, fix the weights of the shoulder girdle and arms, add sliders that move the whole body forward to the bones. I did just that for myself.

[johnny_columbo]

3 hours ago, South8028 said:

 If there is an anatomically correct mesh with a higher hip line, more feminine, then it can simply be correctly tied to these vanilla bones. 

 

But doesn't a skeleton determine how a figure moves?  It seems like that is why it is called a 'skeleton' in computer graphics.  And it just wont have the *differentiation*- because that is how gender is defined, by the comparison and contrast with its counterpart- without a skeleton difference, at least when in motion.  Its will be like watching a transvestite closely and wondering... "is it my imagination, or doesnt she just not quite somehow look right?".  I have that feeling watching FO4, a bit...

 

So, yeah, a unisex skeleton is a bit of a let-down... if youre in to phenotype-accurate representation in video games.

 

But thanks for clearing that up; that there isn't actually any purpose-made gendered or sexed skeleton FO4 mod.  yet lol. 

 

I dont really understand exactly how the different parts of the animation system work, but I think the mesh you speak of is what I am downloading with any of those body mods out there, right? mesh=body=a whole bunch of settings in bodyslide=a shape given to an otherwise protoplasmic blob or linked sequence of blobs more like a certain type of seaweed than a human body.  I also think you may be saying that gendered skeletons are basically not worth it, because there is nothing inherently feminine nor masculine about the CBBE knee fix, nor about the vanilla uni-sex skeleton, and neither is the ZEx Skeleton any better at depicting men or women.  So fudge it: just work with the body.  That is our level of sex-precision here.  

 

However, look: there is a "Legs for Days (Beta)" version right there, on the "Knee Fix" page, as well as some other skeleton "adjustments" ("Rocket-Bottom").  Long Legs!  That kind of works!  Its a start, anyways.  It is a skeleton change, right?  I have up until now assumed this change would constitute a partial, token, but noticeable sexing of the skeleton, justifying the trouble the "Gendered Skeleton" mod looks like its going to be.

 

...or maybe I'm over-thinking this whole thing.  It's definitely a pain, sexed skeletons are, and simply using two separate bodies on the same skeleton, and then some gendered (sic) animations, like you suggest, would be 'pretty good, I guess'.

 

hmmm... what to do?

[South8028]

10 minutes ago, johnny_columbo said:

 

But doesn't a skeleton determine how a figure moves?  It seems like that is why it is called a 'skeleton' in computer graphics.  And it just wont have the *differentiation*- because that is how gender is defined, by the comparison and contrast with its counterpart- without a skeleton difference, at least when in motion.  Its will be like watching a transvestite closely and wondering... "is it my imagination, or doesnt she just not quite somehow look right?".  I have that feeling watching FO4, a bit...

 

So, yeah, a unisex skeleton is a bit of a let-down... if youre in to phenotype-accurate representation in video games.

 

But thanks for clearing that up; that there isn't actually any purpose-made gendered or sexed skeleton FO4 mod.  yet lol. 

 

I dont really understand exactly how the different parts of the animation system work, but I think the mesh you speak of is what I am downloading with any of those body mods out there, right? mesh=body=a whole bunch of settings in bodyslide=a shape given to an otherwise protoplasmic blob or linked sequence of blobs more like a certain type of seaweed than a human body.  I also think you may be saying that gendered skeletons are basically not worth it, because there is nothing inherently feminine nor masculine about the CBBE knee fix, nor about the vanilla uni-sex skeleton, and neither is the ZEx Skeleton any better at depicting men or women.  So fudge it: just work with the body.  That is our level of sex-precision here.  

 

However, look: there is a "Legs for Days (Beta)" version right there, on the "Knee Fix" page, as well as some other skeleton "adjustments" ("Rocket-Bottom").  Long Legs!  That kind of works!  Its a start, anyways.  It is a skeleton change, right?  I have up until now assumed this change would constitute a partial, token, but noticeable sexing of the skeleton, justifying the trouble the "Gendered Skeleton" mod looks like its going to be.

 

...or maybe I'm over-thinking this whole thing.  It's definitely a pain, sexed skeletons are, and simply using two separate bodies on the same skeleton, and then some gendered (sic) animations, like you suggest, would be 'pretty good, I guess'.

 

hmmm... what to do?

It is a male skeleton, not neutral. This happened because initially a female character was not planned in fo4 at all. They figured out to stick it in, and generally rewrote the script, when it was too late to change everything, the whole base of animations already existed.

The mesh is also important. The result is determined by the complex of interactions of the bones and the mesh weights attached to them. Fixing the knee is also nothing more than cosmetic changes. These changes generally bring more problems than they solve (by the way, I have a skeleton with all the fixes and bones, I will throw it off for you exclusively, because I was forbidden to distribute).

In principle, one way or another, you will either have to play with what you have, or master the outfit studio perfectly (it's not difficult). Because for a unique mesh, nobody will ever make clothes and customize animations and all that. By working with the body mesh, you yourself will understand all the problems and their solutions. But in any case, you will have to assemble a complex of different bodies and bones, and adapt clothes to it, and adapt the complex itself for animation.

[johnny_columbo]

Alright, its a skeleton made with a male character in mind.  That would be why it looks so underwhelming on a female character, especially moving.  That fact will be one point in favour of using that "Gendered Skeleton" mod.

 

I would be glad to take a tested skeleton file.  But you should also tell me, considering that I aim for a game built with as many dimensions developed as possible- as well rounded that is, as possible- rather than a narrow glam fantasy, though glam is a legitimate dimension... considering this, what would you suggest I do with such a skeleton file (a .nif)? Use it for the ladies, maybe?

 

Its a bit late for me atm, but please do pm me any goodies and details you can.

[South8028]

31 minutes ago, johnny_columbo said:

Alright, its a skeleton made with a male character in mind.  That would be why it looks so underwhelming on a female character, especially moving.  That fact will be one point in favour of using that "Gendered Skeleton" mod.

 

I would be glad to take a tested skeleton file.  But you should also tell me, considering that I aim for a game built with as many dimensions developed as possible- as well rounded that is, as possible- rather than a narrow glam fantasy, though glam is a legitimate dimension... considering this, what would you suggest I do with such a skeleton file (a .nif)? Use it for the ladies, maybe?

 

Its a bit late for me atm, but please do pm me any goodies and details you can.

I kind of wrote (did you get my message in PM?) What to do. Master the oufit studio and forget about a separate skeleton for women. We must go the other way. Build yourself a complex of bones, weights and morphs that best suits your preferences. A separate skeleton is meaningless. All changes, if required, can be made to the regular skeleton.nif and only the female mesh can be attached to them separately. Some bones can be duplicated with female proportions on the verge of compromising with existing animations. Add some new bones, again exclusively for female meshes and without breaking the hierarchy of existing connections). That's all that can be fixed.

[johnny_columbo]

I have it.  It's quite a story you've written, but you seem to have a clear idea about what to do, which is more than I have. I'll get back to you over there, and thanks.

 

("Master outfit studio..." I'm not half worried.)