Saving/loading issue with big item mods

[Aki K]

There are two home mods (with some added weapons and armors) that add huge locations to the game (and I mean huge.)  But I'm having an issue with random infinite loading and sometimes even infinite saving (which probably corrupts the save file.

 

Now I've made some backups of my saves, but I really love "one" of these mods and want to keep using it.  The other I discarded as it seemed incomplete to me, and I initially thought that one was the source of the problem.  I NEVER RAN BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!  (just feel I should make that clear).  The point is I want my favorite one to work, and it's actually the least burdensome of the two (lucky me).  But the issue described above is still happening.

 

I am already using multiple crash fixes including one for infinite load.  So I'm hoping for some advice on how to further reduce the problem.

 

I'm planning to get some papyrus logs if I can figure out which folder the logs are being sent to.  But I can't read them at all (and I can't even find them atm.)  I play LE and use MO2.

 

The problem only occurs so far if I have the mod installed.  BTW the mod is Aether Suite http://modimages.dysintropi.me/index.php/Skyrim/Aether-Suite .  It's so very cool.

[Akzyra]

One thing I only recently learned was the impact of temporary references: reddit PSA about them

Run xEdit the script on your loadorder to check.

 

 

Otherwise no idea, lots of mods or even just a few huge mods can always break the game in some way.

[Aki K]

13 minutes ago, Akzyra said:

One thing I only recently learned was the impact of temporary references: reddit PSA about them

Run xEdit the script on your loadorder to check.

 

 

Otherwise no idea, lots of mods or even just a few huge mods can always break the game in some way.

Temporary reference?  Never heard of it.  I'll read the PSA but I'm not skilled with technical vocabulary.  So if it's not simple I won't know what they're saying.

 

 

 

On a somewhat unrelated discussion.  While backing up my saves I noticed two saves dating all the way back to last Febuary that I had deleted, were still in the folder even though I didn't see them in the game.  Any idea what that's about or know if that could cause any issues?  They had the character names of old characters, but were a different file type than my other saves.

 

 

EDIT: I see.  I didn't get the script for xedit but the concept "could" be the problem.  But a vast majority of the mods I use are pretty light I think.  I'm not 100% sure.  I'll mess around and see what happens.

[GenioMaestro]

I not think the problem can be related to the limit of 1 millon of references because normally cause CTD.

 

Aether Suite is a big mod but thousand of players use it every day without any problem.

I used it time ago in conjuction whit another bunch of big mods and not have any problem or CTD.

The size of the mods is not a problem. I played my game and load/save it a lot of times while make a lot of test after add 13 Gb of mods. Take a look to one of my test: 

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/113386-ctd-on-new-game-by-excesive-animations-explication/

 

 

I thinking in a problem in the savegame or a problem in one of the core mods.

Verify that you have PapyrusUtil and JContaines in the last version and none other mod overwrite it.

That core mods can cause problem while load/save the game because store a lot of data in the SKSE co-save.

If that not solve the problem try clean your savegame whit ReSaver and your SKSE co-save with Nio-Cleaner.

[Aki K]

15 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

I not think the problem can be related to the limit of 1 millon of references because normally cause CTD.

 

Aether Suite is a big mod but thousand of players use it every day without any problem.

I used it time ago in conjuction whit another bunch of big mods and not have any problem or CTD.

The size of the mods is not a problem. I played my game and load/save it a lot of times while make a lot of test after add 13 Gb of mods. Take a look to one of my test: 

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/113386-ctd-on-new-game-by-excesive-animations-explication/

 

 

I thinking in a problem in the savegame or a problem in one of the core mods.

Verify that you have PapyrusUtil and JContaines in the last version and none other mod overwrite it.

That core mods can cause problem while load/save the game because store a lot of data in the SKSE co-save.

If that not solve the problem try clean your savegame whit ReSaver and your SKSE co-save with Nio-Cleaner.

I have the latest version of PapyrusUtil and Jcontainers.  My animations (though near the limit) have not exceeded it and I recently reduced them a bit.  But it is possible it could be animation related.

 

However, I'm inclined to think it was the save.  Although it is a brand new character, one of the saves prior to installing the mod kept causing CTD.  But my other saves, even older ones, did not have that problem.  I don't know what caused the initial save to fail as it had the same mods as the older ones that still worked.  It's possible Aether Suite just pushed that save over some unknown issue.  I intend to try Aether Suite again later today to see if the problem happens again with a different save.

 

EDIT: It seems you believe MO to be the problem.  I admit, MO does give me trouble frequently.  I intended to try switching to Vortex next time my game completely broke and I had to reinstall.  Since it is mostly stable for me (99% of the time) I didn't think it was worth the effort to switch until it broke completely.  But I may consider switching sooner from this information.  Because I have done everything else right so far. BUT: My issue is not CTD.  I have no CTD, just infinite load and infinite save, sometimes save corruption.  But CTD is not the problem.  So it may not be the

 

My animation count is  10476 total.

I had help setting up my ENB by the guy who made ENB.  He gave me a lot of good advice.

I have 186 mods with 161 plugins

My load order is correct

I do admit, I don't have any bash/smash patches.  Partly related to a glitch in my overall OS.  I'm working on that.  But I don't think that's the source of my problem.

 

It could be MO, it could be I don't have patches, it could be reference issue.  Or it could be rare coincidence.

[Aki K]

Seems like it might have been a fluke.  Haven't done much longterm testing, but I reinstalled Aether Suite, used slightly older save file.  I tried saving in one of the most stressed areas of Aether Suite (a large location with lots of items, and the same place the last save failed) and no issue saving so far.  Something weird must have happened somewhere down the line last time.  Even did a few quest elsewhere, tried saving in regular skyrim.  No issues yet.

 

I do think the reference issue might be more related now.  From what I've read, as the game goes on the more references are attached to a save.  And there are certainly longer save times (load times mostly seem unchanged though), but the longer times are from quest progression not the Aether Suite mod so far.  Aether hasn't impacted save/load time at all this time around.

 

Keeping this thread open just in case something happens though.  Like I said, no long term testing.  Gonna play for a few hours later today or tomorrow and see how things go.

 

Also, no CTDs beyond what can be expected of MO modding.  CTD wasn't really the issue though.

[GenioMaestro]

The manager is indiferent if you know how use it. Every body can have a perfectly stable game with any manager. The 99% of the problems not have any relation to the manager. Always is a problem in game configuration, mod instalation, mods overwrites, load order, incompatibilities... All that problems are present in the game no matter the manager.

Only some specific problems, directly related to the manager, are caused by the manager.

 

The size of the savegame not have any relation to the stability of the game. I playing now with savegames of 50 MB because i deleted some mods and cleaned my savegame. But one or two months ago i play with savegames of 70 and 80 MB. My game waste near 5-7 seconds in save the game and i play with autosaves.

Spoiler

 

The size of the savegame grow every time you start a quest because the game store all the data about the started and finaliced quest inside the savegame. The history of completed quest in my game is  gigantic. All the vanilla quest + dlc's and all the quest of all my mods are completed. I have near 3500 completed quest in my history. But that is not a problem for the game.

 

The number of mods or the number of plugings or the size of the mods not cause any problem to the game. I playing now with 272 mods an 249 plugins, some of them are very big, like Maid II Deception, Falskar, Frostfall, Legacy of the Dragonborn, 3DNPC, OBIS, Warzones... Half of my mods come from this web and some of them are very big, like DCUR, SlaveRun, SexSlaves, Sexy Bandit, Virgin...

 

But i can play for 5 or 6 consecutive hours whitout any CTD. If you have CTD every day something is bad configured in your game. I can have one or two CTD per week playing every day from 2 to 6 consecutive hours.

Take a look to one of my last sessions. You can see my pluging list inside the log.

Papyrus.6 horas.log

 

 

Seems that the only thing that you must learn is that the Skyrim Savegame is not perfect.

Normally, the game not have any problem when save the game but one of each 100 or 200 savegames is corrupt. The only way for know it is load one of the corrupted savegames for see that the game not works correctly. But loading another savegame the problems disapear.

I saved my game more than 3200 times, in the same character for more than one entire year, and i must delete a lot of savegames for have a real stable game whitout problems and whitout CTD.

 

That is my golden rule: If the game not works as expected not save the game. Load your savegame again and repeat. If the problem persist delete that savegame and load a more old savegame.

Not try continue always the game, in an obsesive way, from the last savegame because can be corrupt.

[Aki K]

3 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

The manager is indiferent if you know how use it. Every body can have a perfectly stable game with any manager. The 99% of the problems not have any relation to the manager. Always is a problem in game configuration, mod instalation, mods overwrites, load order, incompatibilities... All that problems are present in the game no matter the manager.

Only some specific problems, directly related to the manager, are caused by the manager.

 

The size of the savegame not have any relation to the stability of the game. I playing now with savegames of 50 MB because i deleted some mods and cleaned my savegame. But one or two months ago i play with savegames of 70 and 80 MB. My game waste near 5-7 seconds in save the game and i play with autosaves.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The size of the savegame grow every time you start a quest because the game store all the data about the started and finaliced quest inside the savegame. The history of completed quest in my game is  gigantic. All the vanilla quest + dlc's and all the quest of all my mods are completed. I have near 3500 completed quest in my history. But that is not a problem for the game.

 

The number of mods or the number of plugings or the size of the mods not cause any problem to the game. I playing now with 272 mods an 249 plugins, some of them are very big, like Maid II Deception, Falskar, Frostfall, Legacy of the Dragonborn, 3DNPC, OBIS, Warzones... Half of my mods come from this web and some of them are very big, like DCUR, SlaveRun, SexSlaves, Sexy Bandit, Virgin...

 

But i can play for 5 or 6 consecutive hours whitout any CTD. If you have CTD every day something is bad configured in your game. I can have one or two CTD per week playing every day from 2 to 6 consecutive hours.

Take a look to one of my last sessions. You can see my pluging list inside the log.

Papyrus.6 horas.log 16.92 MB · 0 downloads

 

 

Seems that the only thing that you must learn is that the Skyrim Savegame is not perfect.

Normally, the game not have any problem when save the game but one of each 100 or 200 savegames is corrupt. The only way for know it is load one of the corrupted savegames for see that the game not works correctly. But loading another savegame the problems disapear.

I saved my game more than 3200 times, in the same character for more than one entire year, and i must delete a lot of savegames for have a real stable game whitout problems and whitout CTD.

 

That is my golden rule: If the game not works as expected not save the game. Load your savegame again and repeat. If the problem persist delete that savegame and load a more old savegame.

Not try continue always the game, in an obsesive way, from the last savegame because can be corrupt.

That is basically what I am doing.  I have loaded an older save and things seem to be working.

 

CTD is not a problem for me right now.  I can play many consecutive hours with no CTD.

 

My save was not damaged from quest progression, I just had longer save/load times.  Not a lot longer, but a bit longer.

 

The only problem I had was that one save seemed to take a very long time to work and then broke.  Probably coincidence but it just happened just after I installed Aether suite, so I assumed I had done something wrong.  And it seems I may have been wrong.

 

I did however, struggle with another mod not too long ago that gave me a lot of trouble.  Every save that used the mod was corrupted (it happened to my friend's skyrim too), even though most other people are able to use the mod with no trouble.  I thought it might be the same situation or that I had done something wrong in my setup.  (That mod was this one https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/35774)

 

 

From what I can tell, everything is configured the right way.  My load order seems fine but I can post it if you want to see it.

 

 

 

I must be misunderstanding you about mod managers.  I thought you told me once before, in another thread, that I shouldn't use MO and that vortex was better.  If there is no difference (as long as I know how to use it) then I would rather keep learning MO than start fresh with vortex.

[GenioMaestro]

7 hours ago, Aki K said:

I must be misunderstanding you about mod managers.  I thought you told me once before, in another thread, that I shouldn't use MO and that vortex was better.  If there is no difference (as long as I know how to use it) then I would rather keep learning MO than start fresh with vortex.

I recomend Vortex because is 1000 times more fast as NMM and not have any Virtual Filesystem that can cause any interference. MO is good for enable mods and play but when you want make more spefic operations, like merge mods or patch mods or develop mods, the problems of the Virtual Filesystem show.

 

When ussing Vortex every file is in the real location and you can run any tool like, Wrye Bash, FNIS, BodySlide, Creation Kit... directly whitout have Vortex open.

When ussing MO the virtual filesystem create a false location for the files an any tool like, Wrye Bash, FNIS, BodySlide, Creation Kit... must be executed from MO while MO is open.

 

That simple diference cause a lot of stange problems that are reported by the users of MO and constanly patched by the MO developer team. A lot of patches has been released this year to solve the problems created by the Virtual Filesystem of MO an some of them are not trivial. Take a look to this:

https://github.com/ModOrganizer2/modorganizer/issues/709

That problem start been reported in 2017 and 2018 but until May 2019 none of the MO developers look the problem with enougth detail. And the patch was released in Aug 2019. The users must wait five months.

Others problems affect Tes5Edit and Wrye Bash when we patch mods. Some mod have specific problems when use it from MO and we must make special operations. The list is gigantic.

[Myst42]

Mod Organizer can give a lot of problems to many people since the VFS can be confusing but once you get the hang of it, it all starts to make sense, and not even once have I had a problem that can't be solved to this point.

 

IE; I also encountered script issues with CK on MO2, specifically, the first compilation of a script always gives me a"stdout" compilation error that makes no sense. A second attempt compiles correctly. I also found out that it's better not to compile a third or fourth time from the same CK session because the output can sometimes end up corrupt or it can even scramble the source.

Add that to location problems, for which, my solution is to optimize locations before compilation. MO2 is perfectly capable of compiling from the source folder of an installed mod, or from the game's source folder, and it all goes better if a compiled version of the script already exists somewhere too. Overwrite folder, or compiling new scripts with no previous files can be messy.

FNIS generation on MO2 also gives me problems; if run a first time it tells me "it cant find some skeleton file", but then try a second time and it all goes smoothly.

But anyway, the point is, it has issues, yes, but nothing "game-corrupting" or "impossible". Every problem I've found so far, has a way to be done right, and my mod list is massive.

 

What's even better, is that with this thing, one can easily untick mods and return to a vanilla game if needed.

Sometimes this is needed to see if one has a problematic mod, or something went wrong with the base game. Mods that overwrite base game files can easily mess up one's game if one is not being careful.

I also have Aether Suite, btw, and I also have huge load times, but in the end they come through. Also experienced the infinite loading screen bug a once upon a time, but it went away with the fixing mod for it and never ever came back, except maybe 2 times in the past year which is very rare.

 

Finally, if you manage to configure stuff correctly, you can know that with MO2, you can return to vanilla game, and see if the game is still alright. If it is, then you have mod problems.

Those mods problems can be related to 2 causes: either a bad mod, actually ill-designed corrupted stuff, or... a badly installed mod, that is not working properly either because you messed up the installation, or have a wrong load order.

Some mods, especially FNIS mods I guess, can easily incur in bad installations.

Another thing that can give you good throubleshooting intel, is disabling mods AND trying to load the save that gives you problems.

If problems go away with less mods, there's hope for your save yet. Else, you should try to fix the problem from a brand new game.

[Aki K]

5 hours ago, Myst42 said:

Mod Organizer can give a lot of problems to many people since the VFS can be confusing but once you get the hang of it, it all starts to make sense, and not even once have I had a problem that can't be solved to this point.

 

IE; I also encountered script issues with CK on MO2, specifically, the first compilation of a script always gives me a"stdout" compilation error that makes no sense. A second attempt compiles correctly. I also found out that it's better not to compile a third or fourth time from the same CK session because the output can sometimes end up corrupt or it can even scramble the source.

Add that to location problems, for which, my solution is to optimize locations before compilation. MO2 is perfectly capable of compiling from the source folder of an installed mod, or from the game's source folder, and it all goes better if a compiled version of the script already exists somewhere too. Overwrite folder, or compiling new scripts with no previous files can be messy.

FNIS generation on MO2 also gives me problems; if run a first time it tells me "it cant find some skeleton file", but then try a second time and it all goes smoothly.

But anyway, the point is, it has issues, yes, but nothing "game-corrupting" or "impossible". Every problem I've found so far, has a way to be done right, and my mod list is massive.

 

What's even better, is that with this thing, one can easily untick mods and return to a vanilla game if needed.

Sometimes this is needed to see if one has a problematic mod, or something went wrong with the base game. Mods that overwrite base game files can easily mess up one's game if one is not being careful.

I also have Aether Suite, btw, and I also have huge load times, but in the end they come through. Also experienced the infinite loading screen bug a once upon a time, but it went away with the fixing mod for it and never ever came back, except maybe 2 times in the past year which is very rare.

 

Finally, if you manage to configure stuff correctly, you can know that with MO2, you can return to vanilla game, and see if the game is still alright. If it is, then you have mod problems.

Those mods problems can be related to 2 causes: either a bad mod, actually ill-designed corrupted stuff, or... a badly installed mod, that is not working properly either because you messed up the installation, or have a wrong load order.

Some mods, especially FNIS mods I guess, can easily incur in bad installations.

Another thing that can give you good throubleshooting intel, is disabling mods AND trying to load the save that gives you problems.

If problems go away with less mods, there's hope for your save yet. Else, you should try to fix the problem from a brand new game.

Most of this was too technical for me.  I'm not bad with MO/MO2, but I learned it through observation and practice.  I don't know most of the technical things/phrases like stdout, or how the overwrite stuff works exactly.  I just know it functions as a sort of virtual machine way of doing things, which i actually prefer.  For someone of my way of thinking that's an ease of access thing, even though to other's it seems like an extra step.

 

My load times with Aether suite aren't bad.  One file just had an issue.  I'm doing some testing but it seems like a fluke.

 

 

I haven't tried to do anything with CK yet.  I don't know much about CK so advice setting it up with MO would be appreciated.  I assume I would have to run it from MO the same way I do with FNIS.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

I recomend Vortex because is 1000 times more fast as NMM and not have any Virtual Filesystem that can cause any interference. MO is good for enable mods and play but when you want make more spefic operations, like merge mods or patch mods or develop mods, the problems of the Virtual Filesystem show.

 

When ussing Vortex every file is in the real location and you can run any tool like, Wrye Bash, FNIS, BodySlide, Creation Kit... directly whitout have Vortex open.

When ussing MO the virtual filesystem create a false location for the files an any tool like, Wrye Bash, FNIS, BodySlide, Creation Kit... must be executed from MO while MO is open.

 

That simple diference cause a lot of stange problems that are reported by the users of MO and constanly patched by the MO developer team. A lot of patches has been released this year to solve the problems created by the Virtual Filesystem of MO an some of them are not trivial. Take a look to this:

https://github.com/ModOrganizer2/modorganizer/issues/709

That problem start been reported in 2017 and 2018 but until May 2019 none of the MO developers look the problem with enougth detail. And the patch was released in Aug 2019. The users must wait five months.

Others problems affect Tes5Edit and Wrye Bash when we patch mods. Some mod have specific problems when use it from MO and we must make special operations. The list is gigantic.

Yes I am aware of many of these issues.  I happen to prefer the virtual filesystem even though it is an extra step.  It's just easier for my way of thinking about things.  I've taken the time to set it up carefully, and there was a lot of failure in the beginning.  But it is mostly stable for me now.  I still consider vortex for the benefits it has, but that will be in the future most likely.

 

I would like to learn how to use creation kit with MO, because I only intend to do little things with creation kit.  Very small mods that don't do much.  Although my computer is powerful, I don't know if I have the memory to run two different mod managers so I would prefer to stick with just one.

[GenioMaestro]

I not saying that MO not works. Is evident that works. Thousand of players use it every day.

 

What i'm saying is that MO have some specific problems caused by the Virtual Filesystem and, of course, none of that problems can exist when ussing Vortex, mainly because Vortex not have any Virtual Filesystem.

I never have a problem compiling scripts with CK or running FNIS or WyreBash or BodySlide or any other tool.

 

The extended idea about that MO leave the main game folder untouched not have any sense today because nobody play a vanilla Skyrim. The fact that we can start a pure vanilla game launching Skyrim from outside MO only can help us to solve the problems caused by the two tools that must be instaled manually whitout MO. I'm talking about SKSE and ENB.

 

In all other situations the problems are caused by the mods and the solution always is disable mods and we can made that whit any manager. I can press the purge button in Vortex for remove any file deployed/managed by Vortex and automatically i have a pure vanilla game whitout any mod. 

 

I use Vortex from more than one entire year and not found any problem until today.

[Myst42]

21 hours ago, Aki K said:

Most of this was too technical for me

Dont worry about it. Just describing some issues I had with MO2 while doing stuff.

The important part is, despite those issues, it's all doable.

Just think of the VFS as a floating install, as if every installed mod was placed on the game folder except it isnt. Biggest advantage of it is the game's real folder is kept intact and there's hardly any risk of fatal file overwrites that make the game unsueable until reinstall.

As for any aplication one needs to launch, one needs to do so from MO, IE, if you want CK or TES5Edit to recognize your mod list, it is launched from MO because that way it reads your mods before launching aplications.

Finally, the overwrite folder is just an open folder that is used for files that arent included on any installed mod. Say you Installed RaceMenu, all it's files will be on the RaceMenu folder, but if you generated a new file from game IE a face preset, then it's not yet included on RaceMenu structure, so it'll be in overwrite instead. Then, you can always move it.

Another example is generating new body meshes with BodySlide, if they dont yet exist on a mod folder, they'll be in overwrite.

 

CK works normally with MO, only that it needs to be launshed from it, that's it.

If you also want to script, you might encounter some complications regarding file locations as I described on my precious post, but nothing serious

Ofc, there's always the chance those problems I described are only mine or related to how I did stuff, since not everyone has the same issues.

 

I have yet to encounter any serious issues with MO

Genio says pple has them all the time, and he's usually right. But it's probably because they messed up somewhere or didn't fully understand the process or how to do things. MO is not exactly "fool-proof". It is possible to fuck up and if you're not aware of what you're doing, things can go wrong fast. Which is why understanding the VFS and where exactly do your files belong, is important.

The alternative, obviously, is using something that is less risky in terms of "what can possibly go wrong" And I guess Vortex is that option, tohugh I've never used it.

 

A long time ago, I used Nexus Mod Manager for Skyrim, but I had some bad experiences overwriting files. Tried to revert to base game, but some files were gone or overwritten by nonfunctional versions and it was very messey so I had to reinstall the game. With MO that can't happen since uninstalling is just a matter of unticking boxes and that doesnt remove base files nor leaves any trace of modded ones. I guess Vortex is more evolved these days and that's not a issue with it.

[Aki K]

5 minutes ago, Myst42 said:

Dont worry about it. Just describing some issues I had with MO2 while doing stuff.

The important part is, despite those issues, it's all doable.

Just think of the VFS as a floating install, as if every installed mod was placed on the game folder except it isnt. Biggest advantage of it is the game's real folder is kept intact and there's hardly any risk of fatal file overwrites that make the game unsueable until reinstall.

As for any aplication one needs to launch, one needs to do so from MO, IE, if you want CK or TES5Edit to recognize your mod list, it is launched from MO because that way it reads your mods before launching aplications.

Finally, the overwrite folder is just an open folder that is used for files that arent included on any installed mod. Say you Installed RaceMenu, all it's files will be on the RaceMenu folder, but if you generated a new file from game IE a face preset, then it's not yet included on RaceMenu structure, so it'll be in overwrite instead. Then, you can always move it.

Another example is generating new body meshes with BodySlide, if they dont yet exist on a mod folder, they'll be in overwrite.

 

CK works normally with MO, only that it needs to be launshed from it, that's it.

If you also want to script, you might encounter some complications regarding file locations as I described on my precious post, but nothing serious

Ofc, there's always the chance those problems I described are only mine or related to how I did stuff, since not everyone has the same issues.

 

I have yet to encounter any serious issues with MO

Genio says pple has them all the time, and he's usually right. But it's probably because they messed up somewhere or didn't fully understand the process or how to do things. MO is not exactly "fool-proof". It is possible to fuck up and if you're not aware of what you're doing, things can go wrong fast. Which is why understanding the VFS and where exactly do your files belong, is important.

The alternative, obviously, is using something that is less risky in terms of "what can possibly go wrong" And I guess Vortex is that option, tohugh I've never used it.

 

A long time ago, I used Nexus Mod Manager for Skyrim, but I had some bad experiences overwriting files. Tried to revert to base game, but some files were gone or overwritten by nonfunctional versions and it was very messey so I had to reinstall the game. With MO that can't happen since uninstalling is just a matter of unticking boxes and that doesnt remove base files nor leaves any trace of modded ones. I guess Vortex is more evolved these days and that's not a issue with it.

Certainly true about the user error being the root cause for MO trouble. In my experience MO has the biggest learning curve compared to NMM or Vortex.

 

In regards to CK, is there anything specific to setting it up aside from running it through MO?  Everything I've read about it seems complicated and I rarely get clarity on CK.  Can I just install and run through MO?  Or are there ini files that need to be altered, specific files to move, etc.?