Perhaps it's time for LL to implement some Patreon policies?

[Kendo 2]

Not really no and thinking about it and if we are being very anal does not the benefit of the $750 mile stone break rule 12 - it doesn't literally say patreon supporters only but you would only know about it by visiting the patreon site which if you do not donate you have no reason to

 

So if i have mod version 1.0 here on LL and i decide to carry on development and make version 2.0 and while i'm doing that i allow patreon donators the chance to beta test it for me i'm breaking the rules? version 1.0 is still here and free for all, you only know about the existance of version 2.0 by either me telling you about it or by donating so how are we breaking the rules? Also there seems quite a sense of entitlement there that if you use version 1 of my mod you should have access to version 2

 

Sticking a mirror download to a pay site and having dead links on the LL download page is more to my mind the sort of behavior rule 12 is aimed at or creating version 1 of a mod and then sticking version 2 of it elsewhere where you have to pay and having links to it on the version 1 page and thus making it into an advertisement for version 2

 

What I have underlined.  Yeah, all of that is against the rules because you are offer something to donors that others don't have access to and you''re using LL to do it.  It doesn't matter if v1 is free and v2 isn't, you're charging money to access an updated version of the mod or one that has different/better content.  And you're using the LL exposure of v1 to garner attention AND MONEY for v2.

 

No one cares if people are charging money for mods.  At least I don't.  In fact I'm all for it.  You just can't use LL as a vehicle to do it or advertise it.  I don't know how clear a rule has to be before people stop trying to justify them breaking it or splitting hairs as to what constitutes paying for content.

 

And no one is saying if they have v1 of a mod they have automatic access to v2.  If you want v2 to be better and charge YOUR FANS money to get it then that's your business.  But you can't link v2 here or use LL to advertise it.  Again, rule #12.  It isn't confusing.

 

Now explain to everyone why you should be allowed to, even though you're breaking a forum rule.  THAT is a sense of entitlement.  Being intentionally obtuse so you can get your way won't work here.  LL hasn't change that much.

 

How about this: you don't link the paid version of the mod on Lover's Lab.

[pinky6225]

 

Not really no and thinking about it and if we are being very anal does not the benefit of the $750 mile stone break rule 12 - it doesn't literally say patreon supporters only but you would only know about it by visiting the patreon site which if you do not donate you have no reason to

 

So if i have mod version 1.0 here on LL and i decide to carry on development and make version 2.0 and while i'm doing that i allow patreon donators the chance to beta test it for me i'm breaking the rules? version 1.0 is still here and free for all, you only know about the existance of version 2.0 by either me telling you about it or by donating so how are we breaking the rules? Also there seems quite a sense of entitlement there that if you use version 1 of my mod you should have access to version 2

 

Sticking a mirror download to a pay site and having dead links on the LL download page is more to my mind the sort of behavior rule 12 is aimed at or creating version 1 of a mod and then sticking version 2 of it elsewhere where you have to pay and having links to it on the version 1 page and thus making it into an advertisement for version 2

 

What I have underlined.  Yeah, all of that is against the rules because you are offer something to donors that others don't have access to and you''re using LL to do it.  It doesn't matter if v1 is free and v2 isn't, you're charging money to access an updated version of the mod or one that has different/better content.  And you're using the LL exposure of v1 to garner attention AND MONEY for v2.

 

No one cares if people are charging money for mods.  At least I don't.  In fact I'm all for it.  You just can't use LL as a vehicle to do it or advertise it.  I don't know how clear a rule has to be before people stop trying to justify them breaking it or splitting hairs as to what constitutes paying for content.

 

And no one is saying if they have v1 of a mod they have automatic access to v2.  If you want v2 to be better and charge YOUR FANS money to get it then that's your business.  But you can't link v2 here or use LL to advertise it.  Again, rule #12.  It isn't confusing.

 

Now explain to everyone why you should be allowed to, even though you're breaking a forum rule.  THAT is a sense of entitlement.  Being intentionally obtuse so you can get your way won't work here.  LL hasn't change that much.

 

How about this: you don't link the paid version of the mod on Lover's Lab.

 

 

Unless i'm reading this wrong paragraph 1 and paragraph 3 contradict each other so we will most likely keep justifying rule breaking and hair splitting until you can atleast stay consistent within one post paragraph one you say everything in my scenario is wrong, paragraph three you say its fine as long as i dont post/link/advertise my version 2 on LL (none of which i said i would have done)

 

That said i'm not justifying rule breaking or hair splitting i'm advocating we fully explore all the grey area's inbetween before we say stuff should be enforced bearing in mind how stuff like this rapidly turns into witch hunts that does nobody at all any benefit (becuz you know we have all been on the internet for more than 5 minutes)

 

Edit: Also a literal definition of Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded would include offers of support/troubleshooting for a donation over a certain threshold or as a milestone

[Kendo 2]

You're reading it wrong, conveniently omitting the caveat of paid vs free.

 

All of this is basic shit.  A few here want to be paid to mod and they are using LL to advertise donor-only 'betas'.  That's against the rules.  Of course these people think they are clever, but the staff is on to what's going on.  And that 'what' is the bait and switch.

 

Users play v1 of a mod and like it.  The modder has his Patreon linked here for donations.  When the users get to the Paetron they see a better version of the mod that's only available to donors.  The modder is charging for access to a mod that wouldn't have exposure if not for the LL fan base and he is using LL to draw people to his Paetron.

 

That is what some here are doing and that's against the rules.

[Vemm]

 

This is one heavy as lead subject, an't it?

I suggest to solidify LL's stance on earning funds and content creators earning funds.

The current state of LL's financial wellbeing is unknown to me, but i do hope it is more than sufficient to keep maintaining/improving.

 

 

I personally don't mind if a content creator says "hey, if you want to ... you can always help me by supporting my patreon.", but if the creator creates some sort of paywall-bargain between the content and the user ... such as a pay-2-play, he/she would just grind my gears. For a mod is technically just an "adjustment/change/addition" of already payed assets/engine of a gamecopy, we are not talking about official dlc's for which payment was required. (like the oblivion horse armor the bastards thought i forgot about that little travesty !)

The practice of "demo's" for pay-to-play mods is in my personal view something to be shunned and be disgusted about.

 

So far goes my opinion 

 

 

This is really what it's all about. If I create a mod using assets from another person's resources like FNIS (which that author has made clear how they feel about paid mods using their resources) then it's a clear violation of ethics between the two. Uncertainty creeps in when authors don't care what people do with those resources but the people using them have done so in a questionable manner, such would be with my mods for FNV's T6M body in which I used Izumiko's assets to create new armors if I had tried to charge people for them; I may have created desired content but most of the effort was not done by me and I should not profit from someone else's hard work.

 

LoversLab, Nexus, SexLab, FNIS, Script Extenders, plugin editors, skeletal assets, etc. are what make most mods function, in addition to that, key framework mods like SexLab are what draw people to LoversLab to begin with; without the success of mods from generous authors, most pay mods wouldn't retain the same value that they're asking for.

 

I don't mind pay mods, and there are plenty of sites for people to promote their pay mods on, but LL as it's been stated is not the place to do it.

[afa]

I think I kind of get what Pinky is saying, I can try expand on it further.

Let's suppose I have a patreon page or my own dev page or some other hosting site for whatever other mods, it has multiple mods in it with varying degree of accessibility, paywall, free, donation, covering different facade of modding armor, textures, framework what have you.

One of the mod that is discuss in LL is a free mod, but the link to the other page contains things other than that free mod and the other mods could be pretty much anything related to that free mod or not, and you won't see that unless you go over to the other page. It isn't some exclusive page, if you go there directly off your search engine of choice you would be able the see the same thing.

At some point if you block that you are essentially saying we are blocking all other site that host mods.

[Kendo 2]

It's still a paywall and at SOME POINT the people perpetrating this really should grow a spine and just fucking admit they are using LL as a bill board to advertise their pay-to-play content.  But that ain't gonna happen by the tone of posts in this thread and elsewhere they think they're justified or ALLOWED to break the rules.  They're special.

 

"I just happen to have a better version of a free mod I hosted at LL on my Paetron and it's only available to donors.  It isn't my fault they saw the better version when they visited my Paetron."

 

That's what I'm reading and it's a chicken-shit bait and switch.  And that whole premise is bullshit anyway because there are Paetron donor versions of mods getting technical support in the LL upload threads of the free versions.

 

There are people here who want to be paid to mod and they want to use LL to advertise it.  And they'll bend over like a Filipino tranny during Fleet Week to make excuses and justify why they should be allowed to do it.  FUCK THE RULES.

[afa]

If you want to go down the possible ulterior motives and people's personal interests in this I can go on for days, but that doesn't solve the issue here. At some point a subjective labeling things for whatever reason you have in your head in itself is an unreliable judgement call.

[Guest]

Hello, please keep the tones down.

 

We all know that having something that "was" | "is supposed to be" free being under a cover a "you pay if you want it" is not something we like.

 

Rules? They are rules. And rules can be updated if required.

Fuck the rules? Nope, usually this means jail.

 

Is LL free? Yes it is. Will you be required to pay for it? (I am not Ashal) but I don't think so.

Check the next milestone for Patreon LL account: no more banners for everybody. And the actual milestone is really low compared to other projects that are just negligible compared to the effort to maintain this site.

 

Again: feel free to express all your ideas, point of views, hypotheses. You are 100% free.

Just try to have a friendly approach. There are no enemies on this site.

 

[zzz72w3r]

IMO the biggest obstacle is how to prevent people using LL as incubator for Patreon pay-to-play.

 

A Patreon modder can start development here on LL abiding by every rule to build a following.  Once the mod is popular the modder can simply cease activity on LL and focus on modding for patrons instead. 

 

There is nothing LL can do about it as no rule has been broken while the modder was here.  Just hiding the old mod once it became known the modder has gone pay-to-play is useless because people will still be talking about it in threads and everyone will know that newer versions have been moved to Patreon.  The shady modder got what he wanted.  What can LL do?  Have moderators spending every waking hours imposing totalitarian censorship like Nexus?

 

 

 

 

[Kendo 2]

Rules? They are rules. And rules can be updated if required.

Fuck the rules? Nope, usually this means jail.

 Unless it's Rule #12.  We're just ignoring that one. 

 

There are members here who are in direct violation of it and the staff isn't enforcing it.  If none of that was happening this discussion wouldn't be taking place.  2+2=4 and all of that.

[Guest]

 

Unless it's Rule #12.  We're just ignoring that one. 

 

There are members here who are in direct violation of it and the staff isn't enforcing it.  If none of that was happening this discussion wouldn't be taking place.  2+2=4 and all of that.

 

 

Agreed.

 

We are discussing about what to do.

Changing the rule? Enforcing it as is?

We don't know yet. And this thread is a good incubator to understand the thoughts of your members.

 

P.S. I share many (not all) of your point of views. I am just way more soft.

[Kendo 2]

Agreed.

 

We are discussing about what to do.

Changing the rule? Enforcing it as is?

We don't know yet. And this thread is a good incubator to understand the thoughts of your members.

 

P.S. I share many (not all) of your point of views. I am just way more soft.

 

As I have stated before there is nothing wrong with paid modding, BUT independent forums are not the platform to do it from.

 

TL;DR

 

Back before Paetron and LL, when Nexus was TESSource and Morrowind was 'the game' there was a huge rift in the Sims2 community because of people doing then what a few here are doing now.  A handful of Sims2 modders got the 'bright idea' that they could charge for content.  Then, like now there were two camps of thought.  It didn't take long for things to get to a boiling point on 'smaller' forums like SexySims.

This small handful of Sims2 modders (lead by Peggy and Stoya) decided they could charge whatever they wanted for content and people could buy it or not.  The problem was they were using sites they didn't own to promote it.  Aside from the expected internet drama, a crop of pirates popped up.  They would pool their money to buy the content and then distribute it for free.  This pissed off the 'pay-me' modders and their fan base, the existing Sims forums didn't have the fortitude to stand up to either group (free vs paid) and their memberships vaporized as people left out of frustration.  The 'pay-me' modders went off on their own to make blogs or their own smaller forums but the fan base and the revenue were gone, and they were too stupid to realize they had done it to themselves.

All of this because one group THOUGHT they were entitled to be paid for something that was otherwise free, and another group THOUGHT the opposite.  The people that suffered were the various forum members and site owners who were caught in the crossfire.

If it happened once it will happen again if the current tact at LL doesn't change.  Public forums ARE NOT the right venue for paid modding.  Look at what happened almost a decade ago and compare how tame the internet was then to the zoo it is today.  Lover's Lab getting involved or allowing paid modding to be facilitated here is asking for a bullet in the head.  If anyone doubts me pop over to SexySims and take a look at the forum.  It's a ghost town and modders wanting to be paid are the ones who caused it.  Peggy, Stoya and their group cared about getting paid, not the forums they were using to advertise and wrangle customers from.  The same attitude is starting to appear here.  Just look at this thread and the posts justifying getting paid to mod or making excuses for those using LL to do it.

 

No matter how the dice tumble people are going to be butt-hurt.  There are two choices here; the staff lets Paetron schemes and manipulations continue so they can pacify about ten people...as LL heads down the path of Sims2 forums and the site imploding.  Or do they simply say 'no more' and put an end to.  It's pretty basic, make ten people happy or save the site an ass-load of unnecessary drama and make almost 1,000,000 people happy.

 

DERP

[Ashal]

This was intended to be a discussion on how best to move forward with an issue facing the community and is quickly devolving. The rule as it is now is irrelevant - the point is to adapt or clarify it as best seen fit for the community. 
 
Thanks to all who contributed their thoughts on the matter. For now, it goes to myself and staff to finish discussing until we decide on a final course of action. Any other thoughts on the matter can be PMed to me for consideration.