Regeneration - More Action, Less Sitting in a Corner

[Hentai-chan]

Today, I wanted make another discussion topic. But this time, about regeneration in action games.

 

It's a fact well-known that regeneration has existed in nearly all shooter or hack'n'slash and various other types of action games in some form. Pickups dropped by enemies, on occasion or with every kill, killing enemies in a special way to regen and so on and so forth. The worst of them all is when you're forced to sit in a corner avoiding gun fire or enemy, or enemies, entirely to get your regen so you can go out and fight. Do you like that to sit in a corner? Praying to god, no one will throw a grenade that will take whatever sliver of your life is left? Or a cheeky bastard that can hit even when you're in cover and kill you? That is what I don't like. Neither do I like being for forced to play defensively only to survive one area. I mean, one area or bosses I don't really mind. What I don't like when that's what all I have to do.

 

I'll be honest, I am not so hot when it comes to shooter games. That is to say I am not very good at it. I have my moments but I still don't consider myself the best shot ever. I was playing COD:MW2 on Veteran when I first realized this and saw just how shitty it is when I died in battle for the first time in SR:TT.

 

In an action game, whether it's hack'n'slash or shooter, I quite simply hate the thought of sitting in a corner or even running away to catch my breath. I'd like a risk-reward system in games that promotes my aggression. Make me think that I have to kill that dude to survive. There were good examples of in games relatively recently.

 

Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance

No idle regen in the game. To replenish health you have to either kill enemy soldiers with Zandatsu or use Nanopaste. It was possible to Zandatsu all enemies, save for Dwarf Gekkos choppers and bosses. That game's awesome!

 

 

Remember Me

Similar to MGR, no idle regen. But unlike MGR, no regen by items, either. the only way to heal is to align and use special moves called Regen Pressens. Which was your typical attack except the it healed you at the same time.

 

 

Saints Row IV

I can talk how ridiculously awesome this game all day but regen is what we're dealing with at the moment so I refrain from indulging you in that. In the real world your typical idle regen was existent, but in the simulation any enemy you killed dropped health pickups that restored a portion of your health. That surely give öe that impression I mentioned earlier.

 

 

What I would like to see in a video game is removal of idle regen entirely or strictly out-of-combat regen. There are lot of ways to improve regen. If it's items...

 

- One unlimited item that partially restores health over time that is upgradeable, has colossal cooldown time, and can only be used out of combat.

 

- Limited number of healing items scattered throughout the game that can prove useful in an emergency situation. They can partially or fully restore health, be upgradeable or un-upgradeable.

 

or ablities/perks/whatever

 

- Some form 'vampiric' ability that allow you to heal as you strike whose efficiency increases as you keep attacking but is broken when hit.

 

- Special form of attack that allows you to instantly heal and gain short invulnerability (like two whole seconds or during animation if there is any) that is more effective if timed perfectly and needs warm-up.

 

Regen is a crucial in all action games where survivability determines progress and for that reason only it needs to be so much more than what it is that is so commonly expressed.

 

So what do you think? Do you think regen is fine as it is or does it need to improve?

[Captain Cobra]

In Spess Mehreen, you had to kill enemies with execution attacks to get health back, which I thought was pretty neat.  Wish more games would try it that way, because I'd much rather go back to health packs than "Sit behind the wall for 20 seconds to wipe the jelly off your face."

[Kpnut]

In Spess Mehreen, you had to kill enemies with execution attacks to get health back, which I thought was pretty neat.  Wish more games would try it that way, because I'd much rather go back to health packs than "Sit behind the wall for 20 seconds to wipe the jelly off your face."

Actually in Spess Mehrehn multiplayer you had idle regen just because the execution attacks took too long and you'r end up getting sniped by a lascannon halfway through.

[gvman3670]

Haven't you guys played any Halo: Reach online? You get a shield that's good to take a couple shots before a death shot to the head, but you have a health bar after the shield that needs replenished with health packs.

 

I find this the best system yet for a FPS multiplayer shooter. You can be near death and get away to allow the electronic shield to recharge, but you'll still die more easily in your next confrontation if you don't make it to some health.

 

If anyone here wants to play some Reach let me know. I run with several guys who are all pretty good (better than I am! ). The GT is "S0n1cButtM0nk3y", so add me and shoot me a message if you wanna' play and have a good time with some laughs.

[Someone92]

I liked how Aeon Flux handles this; if the enemy was low on health you could perform a finishing move on them, and depending on what kind of finishing move you chose you either dealt damage to other eneimes, recovered health or recovered "mana".

[YX33A]

And old game called Jade Empire has some awesome stuff in it as far as "healing" went.  First off, you have three types of attacks in Jade Empire; Martial Arts, Magic, and Weapons.  Weapons did a crap ton of damage, usually, but consumed one of your resources for every attack, Focus.  Focus has uses beyond using weapons as well, as using it can allow you to slow time and move faster, making the use of "fatal resonance" attacks much easier(aka executions).  Using these techniques tended to causes your foes to 'splode real good too.

 

Healing wasn't hard, though.  Press a button and you consume mana to recover health.  But that's shitty compared to using those "fatal Resonance" attacks, which if you use 'em correctly, cause foes to drop orbs that can recover one of your bars.  But while one can get a life stealing martial art, and Mana comes back on it's own(can be boosted with use of a technique IIRC), focus isn't as easy to get back in the middle of a fight, and it's a godsend, since you need it to use Weapons, which as previously stated, kill pretty damn well.  But there is hope; all non-weapon techniques allow for three types of attacks:  Direct weak, Direct Strong, and AoE.  One relatively useless Martial Art that can be obtained very shortly into the game proper can be upgraded so that it's it's AoE attack sets foes up for a Resonance that drops Focus Orbs.

Also:

 

Haven't you guys played any Halo: Reach online? You get a shield that's good to take a couple shots before a death shot to the head, but you have a health bar after the shield that needs replenished with health packs.

 

I find this the best system yet for a FPS multiplayer shooter. You can be near death and get away to allow the electronic shield to recharge, but you'll still die more easily in your next confrontation if you don't make it to some health.

 

If anyone here wants to play some Reach let me know. I run with several guys who are all pretty good (better than I am! ). The GT is "S0n1cButtM0nk3y", so add me and shoot me a message if you wanna' play and have a good time with some laughs.

 

Have you ever played Halo:  Combat Evolved?  AKA the first one?  Same mechanic.

 

Oh, that reminds me(also Deja vu), Borderlands has the same sort of style; you have health, which isn't as easy to get back, and shield's, which are lewt items with all kinds of fun stats.  Health goes up by a set amount every level, but your shield has to be replaced when it gets a few levels behind.

 

Now, this isn't as big of a deal since health in Borderlands is far from hard to get back; many characters have a skill that allows them to recover HP in some way.  Both Siren's have a technique for this.  Roland had his Turret, and Axton his his Girlfriend(a turret).  Axton's GF wins out by far though IMO due to having the ability to be deployed like Longbow Grenades while causing a freaking NUKE  to go off when it lands.  Or the Scorched Earth skill which caused it to have freaking ROCKET PODS.  Like, 5 rockets per tier in that perk, and that's per burst.

 

Very fun games.  I may end up going back to Pandora soon.  The call of Lewt is hard to ignore.

[Vancien]

I feel like regeneration should always stay in the form of attributes, skills, armor and weapons. One of my favorite setups was in Guildwars using a ranger with a vampiric bow (life stealing). If you wanted to regain health you had to hit targets and max damage was a 5 to 1 ratio so having multiple targets worked best. Also, I loved Necromancer there as well. The ability to absorb life or convert life forces into mana or health was amazing. And the ability to walk the thin line between life and death, sacrificing your own health to convert it into mana. 

 

Also in Guildwars II, I liked the Guardian class and my build revolved around a higher balance of sustainability and cure than actual damage. Even though my damage output was substantial it wasn't as high as it would have been had I gone into other trees. I had to use abilities to cause regen in order to sustain my health and take on enemies. I managed to get it so effective with gear that I could take on Champions by myself and survive. Albeit took me sometimes ten minutes or more to down them by myself. 

 

I also like the regen in battlefield you take after shrapnel or explosions, bullets. Obviously a direct shot to the head and you are screwed but it takes a while to fully regen from near death. I have countless times manage to escape death from a tank or enemy soldiers just because I am resourceful using cover. And if you aren't running medic you are virtually screwed for healing period unless your team mates actually give a shit about you, most don't. 

[Kpnut]

I feel like regeneration should always stay in the form of attributes, skills, armor and weapons. One of my favorite setups was in Guildwars using a ranger with a vampiric bow (life stealing). If you wanted to regain health you had to hit targets and max damage was a 5 to 1 ratio so having multiple targets worked best. Also, I loved Necromancer there as well. The ability to absorb life or convert life forces into mana or health was amazing. And the ability to walk the thin line between life and death, sacrificing your own health to convert it into mana. 

In GW I just used Troll Unguent on my Ranger. I used vampiric daggers on my assassin and I played as a Blood necro as well, nothing like stealing your opponent's health to regenerate your own.

[Vancien]

 

I feel like regeneration should always stay in the form of attributes, skills, armor and weapons. One of my favorite setups was in Guildwars using a ranger with a vampiric bow (life stealing). If you wanted to regain health you had to hit targets and max damage was a 5 to 1 ratio so having multiple targets worked best. Also, I loved Necromancer there as well. The ability to absorb life or convert life forces into mana or health was amazing. And the ability to walk the thin line between life and death, sacrificing your own health to convert it into mana. 

In GW I just used Troll Unguent on my Ranger. I used vampiric daggers on my assassin and I played as a Blood necro as well, nothing like stealing your opponent's health to regenerate your own.

 

 

No kidding right? With the right attributes, TU was unstoppable. Not to mention, I took part in the crafting of the Touch Ranger build initially. Ridiculous fun. "What you use a weapon?" Touch-Touch-Touch-Touch, Dead / Sprint, Out of mana, OOB - Touch- Touch - Touch - Touch, Dead.

 

I also crafted a pretty sick degen build as you mentioned. I was like the skales in Underworld. So much drain, monks had no chance. Especially running with a Blackout Mesmer. Good times. 

[Guest]

I don't care much about out of combat regen in Skyrim really, all it is is shorthand for what you'd do anyway, but without a limited resource to act as a roadblock. And pots are showered upon you like confetti anyway so it's not like Skyrim ever feels like a truly difficult life or death struggle survival  game.  I've modded it as much as I can to make it feel a little more old school rpg, so poisons,diseases, fatigue and armor penalties mitigate any sense of unfair advantage I might feel about regen really.  

 

Given that most encounters are pretty much on rails, I concentrate on making the fights themselves as visceral and unforgiving as I can cope with.  I use a mix of most ACE modules and Deadly Combat and play on Master, my toons are invariably light or cloth armored, fights are brutal, a bandit chief is a significant struggle and one poorly blocked 2h power strike is either most of my hp gone or an instant kill. I carry a second fast weapon with a health absorption enchant to give myself an edge when I need it, and back up and chug pots when things are desperate.

 

Gaining heath while I make my way to the next on rails but invariably quite demanding encounter isn't a deal breaker for me I guess.  

 

 

[Guest Omega1084]

I think every game has its own little quirk to health regeneration.

 

My favorite is in Revengeance, Zandatsu looks awesome and it regens your whole life bar, it's pretty overpowered at first but in higher difficulties where you can be destroyed in a few hits it's vital to your survival.

Others I like are the DMC healing with Devil Trigger. You're super powerful for a few seconds and healing but you can still be hit and die. It's pretty cool. Hack n' Slash games usually do this powerup mechanic where you heal while kicking ass.
The reboot kinda shat on that balance by making all your enemies float up in the air helplessly so you could get free shots on them, Ninja Theory really wanted that Heavenly Sword sequel to be a thing, goddammit.

 

The 3rd Birthday was pretty unique about it, instead of healing you just hopped from body to body, possessing soldiers as you went along to regain your HP and not die.

 

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines had a simple way of healing, y'know, biting someone's neck and taking their blood. Vampires are cool when they're not angsty teenagers. *ahem*

[ToJKa]

Health regeneration in Skyrim doesn't really matter. In combat it doesn't help, outside of combat it takes so long to fill your health that you're better of using potions or magic if you expect another fight soon.

 

In FPS games i hate it though. Just running around the corner for a quick cry to be ready for action again trivializes the whole game. I prefer the old-school medpack hunting, or somewhat newer-school inventory system with healing items.

[Guest GuyWhoAbruptlyDisappeared]

I hate regeneration in games. 

 

I actually modded my skyrim to remove the excessive health regeneration altogether. I have a permanent active effect of health regen -99%, and removed self-healing spells. Why?

Because I want a reason to avoid taking an arrow to the stomach. And, if I do, I want it to take a lot of time to heal. 

 

Regeneration is such a thorn in modern gaming. It removes the player's need to fear or avoid anything. It leaves no room for creativity and cleverness on behalf of the player. You just run and gun, hide for five seconds, run and gun, ignoring the 140 bullets you have taken.

A lack of regeneration forces forethought on the player. I remember in Return to Castle Wolfenstein figuring out how I was going to get past that room full of guys while near death.

[gvman3670]

And old game called Jade Empire has some awesome stuff in it as far as "healing" went.  First off, you have three types of attacks in Jade Empire; Martial Arts, Magic, and Weapons.  Weapons did a crap ton of damage, usually, but consumed one of your resources for every attack, Focus.  Focus has uses beyond using weapons as well, as using it can allow you to slow time and move faster, making the use of "fatal resonance" attacks much easier(aka executions).  Using these techniques tended to causes your foes to 'splode real good too.

 

Healing wasn't hard, though.  Press a button and you consume mana to recover health.  But that's shitty compared to using those "fatal Resonance" attacks, which if you use 'em correctly, cause foes to drop orbs that can recover one of your bars.  But while one can get a life stealing martial art, and Mana comes back on it's own(can be boosted with use of a technique IIRC), focus isn't as easy to get back in the middle of a fight, and it's a godsend, since you need it to use Weapons, which as previously stated, kill pretty damn well.  But there is hope; all non-weapon techniques allow for three types of attacks:  Direct weak, Direct Strong, and AoE.  One relatively useless Martial Art that can be obtained very shortly into the game proper can be upgraded so that it's it's AoE attack sets foes up for a Resonance that drops Focus Orbs.

 

 

Also:

 

 

Haven't you guys played any Halo: Reach online? You get a shield that's good to take a couple shots before a death shot to the head, but you have a health bar after the shield that needs replenished with health packs.

 

I find this the best system yet for a FPS multiplayer shooter. You can be near death and get away to allow the electronic shield to recharge, but you'll still die more easily in your next confrontation if you don't make it to some health.

 

If anyone here wants to play some Reach let me know. I run with several guys who are all pretty good (better than I am! ). The GT is "S0n1cButtM0nk3y", so add me and shoot me a message if you wanna' play and have a good time with some laughs.

 

Have you ever played Halo:  Combat Evolved?  AKA the first one?  Same mechanic.

 

Oh, that reminds me(also Deja vu), Borderlands has the same sort of style; you have health, which isn't as easy to get back, and shield's, which are lewt items with all kinds of fun stats.  Health goes up by a set amount every level, but your shield has to be replaced when it gets a few levels behind.

 

Now, this isn't as big of a deal since health in Borderlands is far from hard to get back; many characters have a skill that allows them to recover HP in some way.  Both Siren's have a technique for this.  Roland had his Turret, and Axton his his Girlfriend(a turret).  Axton's GF wins out by far though IMO due to having the ability to be deployed like Longbow Grenades while causing a freaking NUKE  to go off when it lands.  Or the Scorched Earth skill which caused it to have freaking ROCKET PODS.  Like, 5 rockets per tier in that perk, and that's per burst.

 

Very fun games.  I may end up going back to Pandora soon.  The call of Lewt is hard to ignore.

 

I've played Combat Evolved, Jade Empire (it was that, the KOTOR games and Morrowind that relit my interest in RPGs actually), and I have both Borderlands games.

 

I still play Halo2 on PC occasionally and Reach a LOT. H4 sucks in my opinion (it's nothing but COD: Space Edition now). I do play Borderlands 2 a bit as well.

[Scow2]

I like the "normal" regeneration mechanic used in shooters. It's a pacing thing.

 

In multiplayer, forcing an enemy to duck/take cover to heal is a system to allow players to adopt an "overwatch/Suppressive fire" system, and counterattacks can be used to negate over-aggressive enemies. You may not like it when your rampage is shut down by needing to hide, but I love it when I can force someone to back down from a blitz without having to completely kill them first.

[Hentai-chan]

Regeneration is such a thorn in modern gaming.

 

WHAT!? Regen is mandatory. What I hate is how it expressed in modern gaming. I like how you said run 'n gun, then hide, run 'n gun, then hide. But it shouldn't be eliminated entirely or be made trivial on any definition of the term. Idle regen; where it's the only option, is truly a thorn. I believe that it can be expressed differently. And this has been proven several times over, based on my own experiences and that of the others. As I expressed in the OP and the title, ıt should never be sitting in a corner and praying to God so you'll make it, make progress, and not be forced to go through that whole section or level only make the same mistake fail and throw your computer or console out the window. Not that it happened to me, but there were a few instances when I thought about it.

 

I also hate how mages in Skyrim seem to chicken out of combat and heal themselves so they pelt you.

[eifrag]

I hate health per second too, I prefer my herbs.

[Cynical Misanthrope]

For me, it depends on the game. But in general I dislike it. Attacks/magic that steals health is to prefer.

 

Speaking of CoD... I used to play Bad Company 2 online to death a few years back, and if someone landed a critical hit on you, your screen would be covered in blood, thus making it difficult to see whats going on. And this sticked until you died or a medic came and tossed you an first aid kit. I loved it. No health regen whats so ever. But BC2 is an team based game. CoD on the other hand is the opposite. It's fast paced "one man army" run and gun game and you get rewarded for killstreaks. With no healer to help you out.

So having health regen in CoD makes sense in a way.

 

Having health regen in fast pace games in general makes also sense. Otherwise you would need to run away in cover and call a medic and then wait for him to perhaps make some kind of procedure on you

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hentai-chan]

For me, it depends on the game. But in general I dislike it. Attacks/magic that steals health is to prefer.

 

Speaking of CoD... I used to play Bad Company 2 online to death a few years back, and if someone landed a critical hit on you, your screen would be covered in blood, thus making it difficult to see whats going on. And this sticked until you died or a medic came and tossed you an first aid kit. I loved it. No health regen whats so ever. But BC2 is an team based game. CoD on the other hand is the opposite. It's fast paced "one man army" run and gun game and you get rewarded for killstreaks. With no healer to help you out.

So having health regen in CoD makes sense in a way.

 

Having health regen in fast pace games in general makes also sense. Otherwise you would need to run away in cover and call a medic and then wait for him to perhaps make some kind of procedure on you

 

I don't hate regen. I do feel that some form regen is important and essential in all action games. I just hate idle regen in combat to be more precise.

[AgendaDysphoria]

I actually like the type of regen where you sit in a corner and avoid taking more damage, makes the game feel a little more difficult and exciting IMO

[Seren]

Regen can take away a big part of the challenge in the game, I agree.

 

I like to look at Dark Souls for the way it handles healing. You go from bonfire to bonfire (or back) to keep your Estus Flask filled. The Estus flask restores all your health at first and later on a big part of it. Works really well as you need to stand still or take a risk to drink from it and when it's out of juice you need to find a new bonfire or go back to get it refilled, which in turn respawns all the enemies in a zone. It's more of a SP mechanic, but I guess it could be modified for usage in MP games too (yes, I know DS sort of has MP).

All the above examples are pretty cool too. I personally love MGR:R to death. I rarely play games multiple times, but I jumped right into New Game+ after my first playthrough.

[Hentai-chan]

I actually like the type of regen where you sit in a corner and avoid taking more damage, makes the game feel a little more difficult and exciting IMO

 

I wouldn't mind if you did more than just sit in a corner. A game can be made difficult without ridiculous mechanics like idle-regen. For example, a Boss or enemy type that is extremely evasive and can one-shot you with pretty much anything it does is infinitely more challenging than sitting in a corner. Can be even (and should be) enjoyable if it's handled well, too.

 

 

Regen can take away a big part of the challenge in the game, I agree.

 

I like to look at Dark Souls for the way it handles healing. You go from bonfire to bonfire (or back) to keep your Estus Flask filled. The Estus flask restores all your health at first and later on a big part of it. Works really well as you need to stand still or take a risk to drink from it and when it's out of juice you need to find a new bonfire or go back to get it refilled, which in turn respawns all the enemies in a zone. It's more of a SP mechanic, but I guess it could be modified for usage in MP games too (yes, I know DS sort of has MP).

All the above examples are pretty cool too. I personally love MGR:R to death. I rarely play games multiple times, but I jumped right into New Game+ after my first playthrough.

 

I feel you, man. I never got to play DkS. But I watched video walkthroughs on Youtube. It seems brutal but do-able if you're patient. Shame I have to wait about a month for DkS2 to come out for PC.

 

If I were back home, I'd be MGR all day and night until I got all trophies. Except the ones related to VR missions. 'Cause they're just bullshit.

[farmatyr]

I also really like the way dark souls manages the health thing.

i like the idea, if i want health, i'll have to drink a potion, a bit like the old Gothic games.

The system in Vampire Bloodlines was also really nice in my opinion.

The health regenerates really slow, but you can increase it by drinking blood.