Breastplates

[LaEspada]

Just doing some late-night rummaning around trying to muster some motivation for test preparing, and I came across these websites describing actual, good reasons why the the female breastplates don't need "breast bulges."

 

Very interesting stuff and I actually learned quite a bit about body armor design.

I'm not advocating this stuff, I jsut want to make people a little bit more aware of this before you decide to make another "form-fitting" steel plate armor. Not that I don't enjoy it.

 

 

Introduction

I believe most readers of fantasy (and some historical) fiction would be quite familiar with the depiction of women's breastplates with two separate bulges--one for each breast--as shown in some of the designs on this page (note that I'm NOT specifically blaming this armorer for the designs, especially in light of the clarification you'll see on top of the gallery if you follow the link). In this post, I'm going to discuss why this design is not a good idea on the practical level.

 

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/384382.html

 

 

Other ones

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63648-what-should-a-female-breastplate-really-look-like/

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you

 

Was just some interesting stuff I discovered that wanted to share.

[arthurh3535]

Ah, the 'boob plates would kill the wearer FUD.'

 

Bunch of bullshit, actually. Greek armor on *men* had concave parts and wasn't considered a death-trap.

 

It's hyper-sensitivity. It wouldn't need to be 'skin tight' at all, but some of the Mass Effect armors are probably much more accurate than 'just squash the boops, damn the comfort' that these guys are advocating.

[newbmaster3963]

Actually, having relatively larger bulges to support the breasts would provide a very real vulnerability.

Armor is supposed to deflect/glance off most blows, which is why most armor worn back in the ol' days were round and in very few pieces.

Having a bulge on the chest would provide a place where a blade would 'stick' to, channeling all of the force from the blow in that one spot. And usually that would be near the middle of the ribcage.

 

The Mass Effect armors that arthurh is referring to would be extremely impractical in both modern and medieval times for combat. Maybe when we can house kinetic shields in them they would be practical. But for now, no way.

 

Anyhow, your article is a good read. Thanks!

 

 

[cornbreadtm]

If you can't see the boobs while they are wearing the armor they might as well be in a bikini! Boobs or gtfo!

 

It's the same reason why men wear armor that shows off there muscles. If you can't see muscles they might was well be wearing a loin cloth! Conan FTW

 

Video games are suppose to be entertaining, leave realism in your car while you text to your death.

 

Plus it's bullshit to say that boob plates would kill you, when most people wore hard leather (boiled leather) for armor for centuries. Bet they'd take a slab of metal over animal hides any day of the weak. and don't even get me started on chainmail which is literally made to be form fitting.

 

platemail > chainmail > hard leather > tanned leather. Doesn't matter how it looks it's gonna offer more protection. And only chainmail really keeps your head from being hacked off.

 

 

[Lagoon0654]

Honestly, not sure why this is such a gigantic issue.

Wouldn't breast plates be a little safer? Bigger the round, more chances of the sword being deflected off, ect.

 

 

 

Feel free to debate me, I won't debate back. I spent hours and hours reading articles like these and it ended up putting me in a "fuck it" mood.

 

[Corncob]

The "Boob plate" is a rather bad design because of the way weapons were used back when armors where far more common. Medieval swords for instance where designed for stabbing far more then slashing, due to the fact that a slash was practically useless against plate armor. Armor itself was fairly easy to pierce right through to soft tissue whether it be chain or plate armor and having rounded cups build into plate armor would make this problem even worse, due to the channeling of the energy behind the thrust being placed in a much smaller area.

 

I also thought that I would add that I am speaking more about breastplates in a real world sense, then in Skyrim.

[griffinmn]

I've been looking for a mod to female armor based on these principals forever - IE, flat-fronted breastplate.

 

Simply using the male armor shapes on female armors doesn't really work, before anyone suggests that.  The sizing is all wrong.

[Wretched Scum]

I've been looking for a mod to female armor based on these principals forever - IE, flat-fronted breastplate.

 

Simply using the male armor shapes on female armors doesn't really work, before anyone suggests that.  The sizing is all wrong.

 

You could try the CNHF armor replacer: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/34213/?

It comes separately to the body, I use it with cbbe, works perfectly.

 

Beware though, the autor of this mod (or one of them) is a complete idiot, do not go on his blog if you don't want to cringe.

 

I suppose he's hated on LL, I hope I'm allowed to link to his stuff here.

[TheGreyWolf]

Meh, in video games I've always been a form over function person, female armor in mass effect is great because it looks great, not because it deflects lasers, besides it seems to me that the advantage of female armor having breasts on them could be a psychological battle advantage, I mean if u think about it say a guy is fighting a women wearing armor with breasts and he goes to swing at her and his gaze is caught looking at her breasts, he could hesitate for a second and that could give her the advantage in the battle and she could kill him, sort of like why modern day soldiers wear camo and why the Spartans wore red.

[LaEspada]

I think the concept behind these articles about what they trying to touch on is that it's still possible to make some armor that would do it's job and yet still be physically attractive in terms of the female body.

 

Make it more form fitting around the waist, lower the shape of the shoulders, etc.

Of course, in terms of light armor, all you need is a breastplate that convers part of the breast, extending down past the rib cage so you don't end up breaking ribs because you took a glancing blow, sides of arms, bracers for last resort when you can't dodge, onthe thighs since there is lots of arteries in the thigh, shins.

 

Another thing I wanted to point out, in Mass Effect they aren't fighting with swords and maces, they using guns that fire lasers and bullets. This is Skyrim, and I kind of wanted this topic to focus on the actual application of melee weaponery. (See other articles why bullets or projectile weapons will always be around even in the future with laser/plasma weapons)

Thus the prinicples don't apply and don't need to be included.

[Monsto Brukes]

The only boob plate I care about is that in video games. Boobs look good. I like boobs. 

 

It's media... movies, games, art, tv . . . none of which have ever been recognized as being particularly accurate. Skyrim is fantasy. So is Boardwalk Empire. So is Sanford & Son. Some media just appears to be more rooted in our collective reality than others.

 

And the reality is that a lot of ppl simply don't care about whether or not the depiction of female armor -- or race relations in Sanford & Son -- is accurate or functional. People care about seeing tits in the game and laughing at Redd Foxx callin someone big dummy.

 

Some people just need to lighten up.

[arthurh3535]

Actually, having relatively larger bulges to support the breasts would provide a very real vulnerability.

Armor is supposed to deflect/glance off most blows, which is why most armor worn back in the ol' days were round and in very few pieces.

Having a bulge on the chest would provide a place where a blade would 'stick' to, channeling all of the force from the blow in that one spot. And usually that would be near the middle of the ribcage.

 

The Mass Effect armors that arthurh is referring to would be extremely impractical in both modern and medieval times for combat. Maybe when we can house kinetic shields in them they would be practical. But for now, no way.

 

Anyhow, your article is a good read. Thanks!

Um, no. It's total bullshit. Like I mentioned, there is real life 'men's armor' that has some of these 'concave death-traps' and were used for hundreds of years and was never stated to be a horrible or caused their deaths.

 

I also mentioned that having 'room' for their boobs does not mean being skin tight either.

 

This N7 armor is a reasonable example of 'fairly fitted' without being gratuitous. 

[Kidaen]

Ah, the 'boob plates would kill the wearer FUD.'

 

Bunch of bullshit, actually. Greek armor on *men* had concave parts and wasn't considered a death-trap.

 

It's hyper-sensitivity. It wouldn't need to be 'skin tight' at all, but some of the Mass Effect armors are probably much more accurate than 'just squash the boops, damn the comfort' that these guys are advocating.

Well that's because their armor was bronze and not steel. It didn't matter if the embellishments of the masculine physique were added, if the weapon was going to pierce the armor, it would pierce the thickest parts just as easily as the thinest parts (incidently, not a huge difference in them because dudes are relatively flat). Assuming the same design motivation for female armor, you would have obvious seams in the metal where it would have been bent to accommodate the bust. This is very different in terms of material stresses as the seam under the breast will be better at directing force into the seam rather than across it. With the way the breasts naturally hang, it would also generate a window where a strike that did not pierce the armor would be guided up into the wearer's throat, and armoring that to account for the difference would generate a new seam that has the same problems.

 

Incidently, european plate armor is roomy enough in the chest, that assuming the armor was tailored to her height (but designed for a man in every other way, Joan of Arc could have been a double D and not needed to "squash" her boobs to fit into the armor or put it on. Instead the only reason Joan of Arc would have bothered to strap down her tits was to avoid being discovered by her own side.

 

As for Mass Effect, personal armor is really irrelevant, as anything that brings down your kinetic barrier will also be energetic enough to pretty much ignore your armor, so things that wouldn't be allowed in RL or in say Dragon Age aren't that relevant and it's more of an hardened encounter suit that any real armor.

[Dagimpyman]

Um, no. It's total bullshit. Like I mentioned, there is real life 'men's armor' that has some of these 'concave death-traps' and were used for hundreds of years and was never stated to be a horrible or caused their deaths.

 

Could you perhaps provide some examples? I am not really sure what you're referring to, so I can't really comment on your argument.

 

If you're referring to something like a Roman muscle cuirass, like the one below, then keep keep in mind that these were really ceremonial armors that were either worn purely for such activities (e.g., a triumph) or by high-ranking commanders who didn't see much actual combat during battle.

 

 

 

 

[LaEspada]

 

Um, no. It's total bullshit. Like I mentioned, there is real life 'men's armor' that has some of these 'concave death-traps' and were used for hundreds of years and was never stated to be a horrible or caused their deaths.

 

Could you perhaps provide some examples? I am not really sure what you're referring to, so I can't really comment on your argument.

 

If you're referring to something like a Roman muscle cuirass, like the one below, then keep keep in mind that these were really ceremonial armors that were either worn purely for such activities (e.g., a triumph) or by high-raning commanders who didn't see much actual combat during battle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kind of like this, image it full body armor or only the breastplate, you can see how if a blade were stuck or stabbed towards the chest all the newtons of force would be redirected right into smaller area. And for all you who took physics the smaller the area with the same amount of force = greater pressure = higher chance of being killed. where the sternum is, thus increasing the chance of your sternum/aorta/etc being broken and you'd die almost instantly from internal bleeding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bear in mind we're talking about stereotypical over-sexualize female armor.

 

 

Opposed to this. Bear in mind this is a drawing...

 

 

 

 

Just focusing on the BREASTPLATE PART, see how if you struck the breastplate it would deflected outwards, not inwards. Of course the underboob part needs to be worked because a blade could be thrusted under it causing ribcages to break.

[Dagimpyman]

I actually meant if arthurh3535 could provide some examples of the "real life 'men's armor' that has some of these 'concave death-traps' and were used for hundreds of years" he mentioned. I am well aware of the impracticalities of boob plate. Sorry for the confusion.

[p667]

Another reason for the angled plates was to keep the armor light by keeping the angle of penetration the hypotenuse of a right triangle, making the armor effectively thicker than it really was. Yeah, they knew this: Pythagoras was even older than the Middle Ages. The pic below kind of shows this principle, though using a bullet:

http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/armania/armor/armour/angled_armour.jpg

[arthurh3535]

 

Um, no. It's total bullshit. Like I mentioned, there is real life 'men's armor' that has some of these 'concave death-traps' and were used for hundreds of years and was never stated to be a horrible or caused their deaths.

 

Could you perhaps provide some examples? I am not really sure what you're referring to, so I can't really comment on your argument.

 

If you're referring to something like a Roman muscle cuirass, like the one below, then keep keep in mind that these were really ceremonial armors that were either worn purely for such activities (e.g., a triumph) or by high-ranking commanders who didn't see much actual combat during battle.

 

 

 

 

 

I just put in a google search and on the first page had over a dozen examples.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you were to stab them with the shorter thruster swords of the time, they would catch the exact same way 'boob plates' supposedly would.

 

Like I said, it's hyper-sensitive bullshit. While it's not perfectly optimized, fitted armor for women would not have to be male armor that just crushes a woman's boobs.

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

*makes another "form-fitting" steel plate armour*

[Dagimpyman]

 

 

Um, no. It's total bullshit. Like I mentioned, there is real life 'men's armor' that has some of these 'concave death-traps' and were used for hundreds of years and was never stated to be a horrible or caused their deaths.

 

Could you perhaps provide some examples? I am not really sure what you're referring to, so I can't really comment on your argument.

 

If you're referring to something like a Roman muscle cuirass, like the one below, then keep keep in mind that these were really ceremonial armors that were either worn purely for such activities (e.g., a triumph) or by high-ranking commanders who didn't see much actual combat during battle.

 

 

 

 

 

I just put in a google search and on the first page had over a dozen examples.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you were to stab them with the shorter thruster swords of the time, they would catch the exact same way 'boob plates' supposedly would.

 

Like I said, it's hyper-sensitive bullshit. While it's not perfectly optimized, fitted armor for women would not have to be male armor that just crushes a woman's boobs.

 

 

Well, if you had read my post completely, you'd have noticed that I already addressed this. Muscle Cuirasses were not worn during actual battle by those who fought in the thick of the fray precisely because they were impractical and somewhat dangerous.

 

Also, see Kidaen's post about the boob-crushing non-issue.

 

[KGRam]

T&A gets my vote!

[arthurh3535]

Well, if you had read my post completely, you'd have noticed that I already addressed this. Muscle Cuirasses were not worn during actual battle by those who fought in the thick of the fray precisely because they were impractical and somewhat dangerous.

 

 

Also, see Kidaen's post about the boob-crushing non-issue.

 

The leather molded armor? As far as I know, it was used regularly. The metal ones were the 'ornate' versions.

 

It's just people being silly hypersensitive about fitted armor. And unfitted armor (ie. wearing the armor of a bigger person) usually leaves in a lot of pain, even if you never got injured from any hits. So just wearing the men's 'bigger' armor isn't really a good solution.

[Dagimpyman]

Well, I don't know about the the leather armor, you might be right there. But then again, leather armor doesn't have the caving-in issue that plate armor has, which is I think the main problem with boob plate.

 

I agree about unfitted armor being disadvantageous, but it's not like women would be in constant pain wearing men's plate armor just because their boobs are going to be crushed, the pain comes from other issues. And besides, any common foot soldier most likely wore unfitted armor (if he had any at all).

 

But of course I realize that this is fantasy, so we tend to neglect realism in favor of aestheticism in many cases. Nothing wrong with that, people do have different tastes. I actually like boob plate because I'm a man , but if I were a woman who had to fight in armor, I would choose non-boob plate every time.

[Jexsam]

If I can suspend my disbelief in talking dragons and cat people, I can suspend my disbelief in boob plates on otherwise laregly covering armor.

 

Skyrim is in all honestly pretty tame in terms of sexualized armor (that isn't user-generated, at any rate). There are far worse offenders.

[cornbreadtm]

If I can suspend my disbelief in talking dragons and cat people, I can suspend my disbelief in boob plates on otherwise laregly covering armor.

 

Skyrim is in all honestly pretty tame in terms of sexualized armor (that isn't user-generated, at any rate). There are far worse offenders.

 

It's just hypersensitivity like was said a couple of times in this thread. Everyone is talking about blocking swords ignoring the fact that heavy armor isn't for blocking swords it's for deflecting arrows and lances. When going against swords on the front lines soldiers typically wore hard leather armor and carried shields to block the swords. Doesn't matter how the armor is shaped if you're going against someone in leather and you're in heavy platemail they are probably going to kill you since they can run circles around you. It was the same in Japan with samurai and ronin, except their armor was pretty shitty when it came to blocking... anything not a sword lol.

 

I do think its funny how people keep bringing up Mass Effect like the appearance of the armor will have any detrimental effects in any of those combat situations. The game has shielding femshep could fight in a bikini for all it matters, it's a week in the future fantasy game. Jack...all I have to say is Jack. I can see Skyrim but Mass Effect?... common people...