*Question* Mouth and Head Collision (Is it possible?)

[mastermike8800]

So I want to make this a quick question but first I have to establish where I am coming from...

 

First of all I have spent a lot of time perfecting my HDT PE files to my taste, with all of that effort I have resisted upgrading to Skinned Mesh Physics. My collisions all seem to work (took me forever but I did it!) and I have a decent knowledge on editing my hdt xml files, at least through JFF.

 

My next quest was to get floppySOS to play nicely with the rest of my hdt physics. By some miracle I got it to work and let me tell you, it was totally worth it, breathed new life into sexlab animations, although it still has its glitches.

 

One frustrating part of the experience was the fact that for some reason my characters schlong couldn't penetrate the mouth of my npc characters during oral. The head collision data just pushed it off to the side... or so I thought. After a really long time of digging through the files and trying different things I discovered that it was actually colliding with the HDT wigs my npc characters wore. So after editing the floppysos xml (which is finicky for sure, they sometimes like to revert to default so I had to make special back up files to replace the originals whenever this happened because editing them to my liking is quite time consuming.) I finally got the floppysos to penetrate her head.

 

Great I'm getting closer to my goal... Now that my floppysos files don't seem to collide with the npc's head or wig I can almost simulate oral except for the fact that the floppiness of the schlong breaks immersion by either revealing itself through the chin or flopping up through the middle of the npc's face or by poking itself out of the back of her head, however I don't really seem to have this problem with vaginal collisions , its all pretty believable there, gripping, compressing and stretching where needed to make it look like its actually interacting with the vagina.

 

My ultimate question is, and I can theorize this but haven't found a way to actually execute, is there a way to alter the npc's head collision data to create some sort of concave collision shape that can act as the girl's mouth to both compress the schlong as it hits the back of her throat and to keep it in the mouth more consistency with less clipping.

 

On one hand I know this is asking a lot of the system but I wouldn't postulate this theory if I hadn't seen it work so well with the vagina.

 

I've been working on some animations but I'm rarely interested in doing oral animations because to me it just isn't believable in its current state. I'd gladly spend more time on that if I could implement my theory.

 

Obviously I could take dream of mine further, asking about what it would take to create physics data for the neck or cheeks but I would gladly take a simple solution, something that kind of got the job done. Any help would be appreciated.

[Bazinga]

What you're trying here is a little more ambitious than what most people me included settle for.

Usually you just make the penis stiff (so no wobbling, bouncing or whatever) during sex scenes when you use FloppySOS. So hearing that you managed to get good results for vaginal penetrations with a schlong that moves with HDT physics is a bit of a surprise to me.

If you ever get this all set up perfectly maybe you could share what you did? Because as far as I heard it until now most people don't even get that part working correctly.

 

 

about the head and the concave collision shape:

Tbh I don't know if such a shape exists meaning if it does I can't help you with that.

But a few weeks ago I figured out that you can set up more than one collision box for the same bone as long as you keep them static. I don't know how many though. For this to work you would need at least 3 I guess... That's what makes me a bit sceptical when you say that you got this working for the vagina btw. There are only 2 collision boxes for that, one for the left and one for the right labias. I don't see how these are enough to "trap" the penis inside them if you make it move with HDT (meaning if you don't choose the stiff preset for FloppySOS).

 

Anyway, since this is actually very interesting for me I will make an xml with 3 mouth collision boxes and let you try if that's good enough to steer the schlong inside the mouth.

 

edit:

Quick and dirty first try that probably won't work...

I don't have time to test it myself atm, have to go now.

 

HDTmouth.7z

 

Just attach the xml to some body part mesh.

And if you were using my xml mod (Naturalistic HDT v3) then I suggest you delete the NPC head rigidbody from the xmls there using JFF. For v3.54 and earlier that rigidbody would be part of both hdtm.xml and hdtvagina.xml and for v3.55 it's inside the hdtfingers.xml

[Bazinga]

So did you make any progress with this? Did the xml I posted manage to trap the schlong?

Anything? Because I certainly won't test this stuff, I have enough on my plate already. It's you who wanted this feature, not me.

[Andy14]

It is feasible, but pure madness out of pure reason.

Not only, the 3 collision boxes do not reach, if it is to some extent to look good are it at least 24, actually 28.

 

So much for pure theory.

The head has in Skyrim (and almost all other games) a certain special role.

Facial expressions - in skyrim in the form of a tri-file. A file that contains a mesh for each 100% facial expression.

And a mesh for neutral.

The goal is to move the vertices of the source mesh into the position of the target mesh.

This is called Morph.

 

Correct: The expression meshes - facial expressions - have been created with the help of bones and skin, but only the result is used. The final result is stored as a fixed mesh within the Tri, eg. Smiling, looking sad etc ..

 

Here is a brief introduction to the technique - we say Facial Rig:

 

 

And here is a desired result

 

 

 

I said in the beginning - it is doable. I hope after this little introduction to the context is also aware of what it would mean.

It requires a bone system (not just 3 - hopeless case), the appropriate skinn for it and for each facial expression an animation (Skelet-> Bones-> Bone move and or Bone rotate).

Technically possible - but not very useful.

I think in the future (years, decades) games will offer something like that. But the market regulates everything. No demand - no offer.

 

[mastermike8800]

Hi Bazinga! Thanks for taking the time to reply!

 

I finally found some time to mess around with your .xml and I hope I set it up right. There are just so many variables involved that its hard to tell what tweaks have the most effect.

 

Honestly, I know I tried your hdt set up, I believe it was the basis for all my subsequent tweaks, but I've changed so much that I wouldn't know how to list all the changes I've made, so much trail and error.

 

Also I don't want to mislead anyone, my schlong to vagina collisions are far from perfect. I've included a few gifs to illustrate where I am at. I think it shows a lot of potential but I do think perfecting this is a bit ambitious. You'll see some of the major issues like the schlong either falling below the vagina (happens a lot more often due to gravity, and I can't seem to fix the floppy schlong slump issue.) or popping out the back. A few quick adjustments usually fixes it.

 

So I also theorized about creating multiple collision boxes but I seem to have a hard time visualizing them so I'm not sure exactly where to put them or how big to make them. I think your quick and dirty is a great start though, that is if the collisions I am achieving are strictly due to the mouth.xml file or is there is some other variable I haven't taken into account.

 

Ultimately I think so much comes down to the animation and speed, also I just can't make sense of floppysos.xml files. My latest issue is the fact that when I am at high arousal, my schlong collides with everything, including KS HDT Wigs where as at medium arousal my schlong seems to collide with absolutely nothing (keep in mind I have heavily edited the "no collide with" check boxes in the floppysos.xmls) Both are useful in their own way but please don't make me choose between KS HDT wigs and floppy sos.

 

Anyway, part of me feels like there must be someway to make this all work together and the other part thinks that there are inherent limitations on HDT Physics in skyrim.

 

Check out the gifs, let me know your thoughts! If you look at the gif of the mouth collision you can see it almost achieve its goal but not quite, so close!

 

[mastermike8800]

Hi Andy, just saw your reply. I think I follow you but am I correct in assuming that your mean the collision of the mouth on the schlong where as I am talking about the collision of the schlong to the mouth?

 

Don't get me wrong, that sounds amazing but I feel fairly confident that won't happen in the skyrim generation. Not to mention I know nothing of creating meshes, or rigging or skinning for that matter so if it does happen it won't come from me lol.

 

Also, not sure if any of you have heard of xmoonproductions.org or their game xstoryplayer but I think its a pretty decent portrayal of what's achievable nowadays as far as 3d graphical oral sex is concerned. Although I'm not implying that any of that is achievable in skyrim. 

[Lifariz]

Wow, it's actually working... Slipping out is a problem is the real world to so it's already a miracle yours auto-corrects itself.

I think the problem with your mouth to penis problem is too big. The penis, that is. 

[Bazinga]

Wow, you're a madman, mastermike8800 

And I mean that as a compliment.

 

Actually the more I think about it the more I want to get something like that modded into my own game too.

So maybe I'll continue improving my own mod and add real schlong physics and mouth and vagina collisions that then trap the schlong.

Or maybe I'll ask jopie123 if we can work together on this. Will see.

 

Provided that the little xml I posted up there does what I want it to do (the image I included in the archive shows where the 3 collision boxes are approximately, 3 sides of a triangle), I think you still need a slightly different schlong xml than what FloppySOS offers or else the little guy will jump out of the frame too easily.

The problem is that there are actually 7 or so collision boxes in the schlong xml, arranged like a string of beads. For this to work you would need one that encapsules the whole schlong.

...

Wait a sec, I'll quickly download FloppySOS and make a few changes.

[Bazinga]

Changing values in the FloppySOS xmls didn't give the results I wanted. I didn't use ragdoll constraints in my own mods so far, I'm much more comfortable with generic constraints. Meaning I had to do this from scratch.

And is it just me or is there really a major conflict between the fourth FloppySOS preset and Schlongs of Skyrim? The SOS bending value gets overwritten by one of the constraints settings from the xml.

 

Anyway, here's a schlong xml with just one collision box which has the same shape as the schlong. With this the schlong should not jump out of the constraints set by the mouth xml I posted above, at least not that often.

schlong physics xml.7z

 

It's comparable to preset 4 from FloppySOS I guess. The collision box fits the Leito schlong and it will work for most other SOS schlongs too although collisions won't match the mesh as closely as for Leito.

 

 

The main problem I see with this isn't really the HDT setup, which is doable, but the way Sexlab moves actors into position for sex scenes.

They don't move into stage 1 of a sex scene in a natural way, they just slide into position.

But with narrow constraints for the schlong and bigger holes to aim for this might still work.

[Andy14]

Positioning is actually the problem.

And SOS itself is also problematic - size and orientation.

The Vanilla Head Mesh has too few polygons - is not even enough for proper face expression (without corners and edges).

 

Many unknowns + bad material.

 

It would be easier to control facial expressions through tags of the animation. Ooh, big Aah etc.

One could also put on keybord. Similar to SOS.

 

Result will be just as bad as HDT - but less effort.

 

Edit:

Oh, and for HDT solution (bones) - you have to re-create all NPC heads.

[mastermike8800]

I'm super excited that you're looking into this Bazinga! If you and Jopie were to collaborate on this I'm sure the product, even if limited by the scope of what's possible in the game, would be nothing short of incredible. I'd love to help where I can but my understanding of the systems are rudimentary at best. I'm totally stumped on floppysos's design as well, as for getting the schlong to not go all bonkers on me I basically took a jackhammer to that walnut while wearing a blindfold, creating backups and adjusting the hdtm.xml file, trying different theories. I remember it had something to do with disabling the feature to disable hdtm.xml in floppysos, also I had to mess with the collision options in the floppysos.xml files. I wish I could be more help. Unfortunately it's going to be a busy weekend for me and it will be a few days before I can mess around with the game but I'll try your file out and tell you what I think!  

[Lifariz]

So a revolution was born in this thread. Is history being made here in Skyrim modding?

[Andy14]

I do not think Ctrl + F4 make a good export.

It already fails with skeleton of simple HDT hair.

 

From a technical point of view, I am willing to help if I can - otherwiseI think the expression version is the best solution. After all, an HDT solution is not much different.

The difference is essentially:

Facial animations are available as Target Morph in Skyrim. These morphs have already been created with bones and skin.

 

Whether the vertices are moved by animation or realtime using HDT - it makes no difference.

 

HDT Solution: ALL NPC newly created - big doubt - see first both lines.

Would require the mod author to have "very very" good skills in 3d programs.

I can do it - but no thanks.

It must be race compatible and gender neutral. The o.a. Effort is n x n.

Facial animation of Sexlab must be deactivated.

 

Solution by facial expression:

- Available for all races and genders.

- Available for all NPCs

- No problem with exporting the NPC with CTRL + F4

- No problems with custom races

 

Setting up SOS is still a problem - in both solutions.

Like this vagina Bla Bla Bla.xml

 

What a nonsense:

One purely Mathematically 2x Given and in the result = Maybe.

Lol.

 

 

@Bazinga: Lieber Freund, wenn Du wirklich daran festhältst ... habe ich keine Fragen mehr.

Pffft, immer vorwärts, oder?

Es kann funktionieren, eingeschränkt auf den Spieler. Und das wird dann eine sehr anschauliche, aber traurige Veranstaltung.

Für alles weitere, NPC's, Rassen usw. glaube ich - sei mir nicht böse - fehlen hier an dieser Stelle einfach die Skills oder zumindest der Ehrgeiz, respektive die Zeit.

 

Einfach mal die Frage in den Raum gestellt: Denkst Du, eine Gesichtsanimation (die du für sämtliche Rassen und Geschlechter machen müsstest) wäre wirklich besser, als der vorhandene Kram?

Zugegeben, du musst es nicht in einer Tri als Object speichern, sondern "nur" als xml exportieren.

Sei ehrlich, es macht es nicht einfacher.

Als Projekt und Herausforderung interessant -  als HDT ein Kopfschuss.

Als alternativer Weg - wie ich vorschlug - durchaus denkbar, realistisch und umsetzbar.

 

Ich werde dem hier weiter folgen. Es kann interessant werden und etwas zu lernen, kann nicht verkehrt sein.

 

Ich wünsche Dir viel Glück

[Xaqq]

:') give this thread some support and attention. it deserves it. i hope more people know about what you guys are doing cuz this sounds amazing.

 

edit: and just curious, are any of the files posted in this thread usable or are they just for testing still?

[darkevilhum]

The implementation or atleast the collision side of things could be much easier with SMP. Just a thought.

[Bazinga]

 

@Bazinga: Lieber Freund, wenn Du wirklich daran festhältst ... habe ich keine Fragen mehr.

Pffft, immer vorwärts, oder?

Es kann funktionieren, eingeschränkt auf den Spieler. Und das wird dann eine sehr anschauliche, aber traurige Veranstaltung.

Für alles weitere, NPC's, Rassen usw. glaube ich - sei mir nicht böse - fehlen hier an dieser Stelle einfach die Skills oder zumindest der Ehrgeiz, respektive die Zeit.

 

Einfach mal die Frage in den Raum gestellt: Denkst Du, eine Gesichtsanimation (die du für sämtliche Rassen und Geschlechter machen müsstest) wäre wirklich besser, als der vorhandene Kram?

Zugegeben, du musst es nicht in einer Tri als Object speichern, sondern "nur" als xml exportieren.

Sei ehrlich, es macht es nicht einfacher.

Als Projekt und Herausforderung interessant -  als HDT ein Kopfschuss.

Als alternativer Weg - wie ich vorschlug - durchaus denkbar, realistisch und umsetzbar.

 

Ich werde dem hier weiter folgen. Es kann interessant werden und etwas zu lernen, kann nicht verkehrt sein.

 

Ich wünsche Dir viel Glück

 

Attacke, Attacke, Attacke, so sieht's aus. Hast mich durchschaut, Andy. 

 

Spaß beiseite, ich denk, wir reden völlig aneinander vorbei.

Soweit ich es verstanden habe, ging es mastermike8000 nur darum, für den Mund eine Negativform an Kollisionsboxen zu schaffen, damit HDT PE - bewegte Pimmel dadurch geführt werden. Er hat es sich halt in den Kopf gesetzt, für Sexanimationen Penis-xmls zu nutzen, bei denen die Genital Bones nicht starr sind.

Und ich hab ihm mal eben schnell so ein Dreieck als Negativform für den Mund gebastelt.

Es ging glaub ich nie darum, ob und wie der Mund sich öffnet, es ging nur darum, den Penis mittels Kollisionen durch die Stelle des Kopfes zu "führen", wo der Mund ist. 

 

translation (or the gist of it):

I think Andy and I were discussing completely different things itt. He was talking about ways to make the mouth open through mesh collisions. I doubt that would be possible with the tools and knowlegde I have at my disposal and I never claimed anything else.

What I was trying to do was helping mastermike8000 to create a negative collision shape for the mouth so that schlongs that move with HDT PE (like the lower number presets from FloppySOS) get guided into the head with these collisions. Basically a bit like collisions work in real life, but only on the schlong side of things and not for the mouth. ^^

 

 

The schlong xml was another attempt to help with this because I doubt that my triangle would be able to guide a string of beads kind of collision box setting for the schlong - which is what FloppySOS offers. So I turned that into a single penis-shaped collision box.

 

Dunno if the triangle shape I uploaded in an earlier post is any good for this though since I never tested it myself.

You'd have to ask mastermike8000, I don't have a lot of time atm and I have other projects that are more urgent. Maybe I'll look into this myself at a later time, but for now the only thing I can help with are some xmls that make sense from my perspective.

[Nazzzgul666]

I'm just staring purely amazed, i have no clue about that stuff whatsoever, but there is one thing i'm wondering:

Could that be a way to mae the Schlong bend when it hits an end?

It looks somewhat funny when a Schlong just pokes right through my head and lifts my HDT hairs, but... if it would be possible to make that Schlong go down the throat instead of straight through the head, that would be just godlike.

[Andy14]

 

snip ....

Attacke, Attacke, Attacke, so sieht's aus. Hast mich durchschaut, Andy. 

 

Spaß beiseite, ich denk, wir reden völlig aneinander vorbei.

Soweit ich es verstanden habe, ging es mastermike8000 nur darum, für den Mund eine Negativform an Kollisionsboxen zu schaffen, damit HDT PE - bewegte Pimmel dadurch geführt werden. Er hat es sich halt in den Kopf gesetzt, für Sexanimationen Penis-xmls zu nutzen, bei denen die Genital Bones nicht starr sind.

Und ich hab ihm mal eben schnell so ein Dreieck als Negativform für den Mund gebastelt.

Es ging glaub ich nie darum, ob und wie der Mund sich öffnet, es ging nur darum, den Penis mittels Kollisionen durch die Stelle des Kopfes zu "führen", wo der Mund ist. 

 

translation (or the gist of it):

I think Andy and I were discussing completely different things itt. He was talking about ways to make the mouth open through mesh collisions. I doubt that would be possible with the tools and knowlegde I have at my disposal and I never claimed anything else.

What I was trying to do was helping mastermike8000 to create a negative collision shape for the mouth so that schlongs that move with HDT PE (like the lower number presets from FloppySOS) get guided into the head with these collisions. Basically a bit like collisions work in real life, but only on the schlong side of things and not for the mouth. ^^

 

 

The schlong xml was another attempt to help with this because I doubt that my triangle would be able to guide a string of beads kind of collision box setting for the schlong - which is what FloppySOS offers. So I turned that into a single penis-shaped collision box.

 

Dunno if the triangle shape I uploaded in an earlier post is any good for this though since I never tested it myself.

You'd have to ask mastermike8000, I don't have a lot of time atm and I have other projects that are more urgent. Maybe I'll look into this myself at a later time, but for now the only thing I can help with are some xmls that make sense from my perspective.

 

 

 

Haha, daher die Redewendung zur Attacke blasen.

 

Nein, Du hast Recht. Wir haben aneinander vorbeigeredet, oder konkreter: Ich habe den Thread nicht gelesen, sondern nur den Titel.

 

Ich dachte, es geht um wirkliche Kollision und dessen Folgen.

Dicke Backen, spitze Lippen, herausstehende Augen ... lol

Nun gut, ein Funkleitstrahl ist auch nicht schlecht, aber auch nicht wirklich neu.

Bevor ich meine ganzen Mods vor 2 Jahren ins Nirvana mittels HD Crash geschickt habe, hatte ich dies bereits.

Gleicher Lösungsansatz wie Deiner - zur Beruhigung, es funktioniert.

 

Allerdings ohne wirklich sichtbaren Nutzen - die Augen kamen nicht raus.

Als ich den Titel las war nur noch: Was, wie, wo, geil ...

 

So. Also mein Fehler. Ich hab nicht alles gelesen - oder in Ermangelung der Existenz elementarer Hirnareale schlicht den Zusammenhang nicht begriffen.

 

Aber das Ding mit den Augen, dicken Backen usw. gebe ich nicht auf - habe bereits sehr wage Ideen dazu.

 

So, nun will ich Dich nicht länger am Blasen abhalten, hust - am Attacke blasen.

Du Unhold.